Jesus and Wine
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I have actually been out like 24 plus years and dreamed I was back in last night HAHAHAH yeah I woke up sweating HAHAHHAH!
Actually which of the 10 other than the Sabbath have not been brought forward to the new? Here loving your neighbor is brought forward and extended further to your enemies :
Matthew 5:43-45 (NKJV)
43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
Even Paul speaks of love well after the earthly ministry of Jesus:
Galatians 5:22-23 (NKJV)
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
1 Corinthians 13:13 (NKJV)
13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
If you make your neighbor think its okay for you to drink, you cause your brother to stumble, Paul said if it caused his brother to stumble he would not even eat meat! :
1 Corinthians 8:13 (ASV)
13 Wherefore, if meat causeth my brother to stumble, I will eat no flesh for evermore, that I cause not my brother to stumble.
Matthew 5:43-45 (NKJV)
43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
Even Paul speaks of love well after the earthly ministry of Jesus:
Galatians 5:22-23 (NKJV)
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
1 Corinthians 13:13 (NKJV)
13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
If you make your neighbor think its okay for you to drink, you cause your brother to stumble, Paul said if it caused his brother to stumble he would not even eat meat! :
1 Corinthians 8:13 (ASV)
13 Wherefore, if meat causeth my brother to stumble, I will eat no flesh for evermore, that I cause not my brother to stumble.
Re: Jesus and Wine: What do you want to force the scriptures to mean.
Luk 7:33 "For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, 'He has a demon!' 34 "The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!
Jesus said that John didn't eat bread or drink wine. Jesus said that He came eating and drinking without ANY restriction (Other than He wasn't drunk), and that the Pharisees discredited Him for being gluttonous (No restrictions on food amounts (But not a glutton by God's definition), and, of course that He was a friend of tax gatherers and sinners.
These are Jesus' own admissions. Did He not eat bread?
Did He not befriend tax gatherers and sinners? If He didn't, then He didn't drink wine without any restriction either, other than He did not sin, i.e. get drunk.
Here's another one:
1Co 11:20 Therefore when you meet together, it is not to eat the Lord's Supper, 21 for in your eating each one takes his own supper first; and one is hungry and another is drunk. 22 What! Do you not have houses in which to eat and drink? Or do you despise the church of God and shame those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you? In this I will not praise you.
Well, there is the grape juice from concentrate crowd. The problem is this, while there is alcohol even in grape juice from concentrate, or paste … the percentage is low. So low, in fact that, to get drunk on “wine” made from concentrate, you would need to consume over 6 gallons in an hour per person. Possible, I suppose, if God performed a miracle. You see, the stomach would burst at between 3-4 gallons in an hour.
I suppose that it could be a miraculous “drunkenness” as well. i.e. they only had a glass or two of reconstituted grape juice, and God performed a miracle and made them drunk.
The question is, what kind of hermeneutical contortionism are we prepared to execute to hold fast to our beliefs? Would out doctrines prevent Christ Himself from serving in our ministries? Would it prevent any of the disciples from serving in our churches? Did they not have issues with drunkenness throughout the times the scriptures were written? Is God … Christ … not aware of the dangers to His ministry, and by His example, to others, by drinking alcohol? What about the opinions of others? Avoiding any appearance of evil? What will the religious people think?
A person could consider the Savior a … well … a … dare I say it … a drunkard based on what He drinks, could he not? Oh the shame of it all. Thank God our religious leaders would consider such behaviors as shameful and would discredit any person from religious service based on such habitual practices.
Thank God we have “Godly” church leadership that prevents those with such "practices" from being in leadership of our churches. If we were to become followers of such people, with such habits, of those who use real wine for communion wine ... God knows what could happen.
Luk 7:33 "For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, 'He has a demon!' 34 "The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!
Jesus said that John didn't eat bread or drink wine. Jesus said that He came eating and drinking without ANY restriction (Other than He wasn't drunk), and that the Pharisees discredited Him for being gluttonous (No restrictions on food amounts (But not a glutton by God's definition), and, of course that He was a friend of tax gatherers and sinners.
These are Jesus' own admissions. Did He not eat bread?
Did He not befriend tax gatherers and sinners? If He didn't, then He didn't drink wine without any restriction either, other than He did not sin, i.e. get drunk.
Here's another one:
1Co 11:20 Therefore when you meet together, it is not to eat the Lord's Supper, 21 for in your eating each one takes his own supper first; and one is hungry and another is drunk. 22 What! Do you not have houses in which to eat and drink? Or do you despise the church of God and shame those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you? In this I will not praise you.
Well, there is the grape juice from concentrate crowd. The problem is this, while there is alcohol even in grape juice from concentrate, or paste … the percentage is low. So low, in fact that, to get drunk on “wine” made from concentrate, you would need to consume over 6 gallons in an hour per person. Possible, I suppose, if God performed a miracle. You see, the stomach would burst at between 3-4 gallons in an hour.
I suppose that it could be a miraculous “drunkenness” as well. i.e. they only had a glass or two of reconstituted grape juice, and God performed a miracle and made them drunk.
The question is, what kind of hermeneutical contortionism are we prepared to execute to hold fast to our beliefs? Would out doctrines prevent Christ Himself from serving in our ministries? Would it prevent any of the disciples from serving in our churches? Did they not have issues with drunkenness throughout the times the scriptures were written? Is God … Christ … not aware of the dangers to His ministry, and by His example, to others, by drinking alcohol? What about the opinions of others? Avoiding any appearance of evil? What will the religious people think?
A person could consider the Savior a … well … a … dare I say it … a drunkard based on what He drinks, could he not? Oh the shame of it all. Thank God our religious leaders would consider such behaviors as shameful and would discredit any person from religious service based on such habitual practices.
Thank God we have “Godly” church leadership that prevents those with such "practices" from being in leadership of our churches. If we were to become followers of such people, with such habits, of those who use real wine for communion wine ... God knows what could happen.
you're sure reading things into post's post that post did not post.
to clarify:
some are arguing that Christ sinned by tempting an alcoholic with more wine.
so i ask: what is it to tempt a glutton with all the bread and fish it takes to fill him up?
i'm not fat, but i have a sweet tooth and bad teeth because of it.
would you be doing righteousness to give me all the chocolate i could stomach?
to clarify:
some are arguing that Christ sinned by tempting an alcoholic with more wine.
so i ask: what is it to tempt a glutton with all the bread and fish it takes to fill him up?
i'm not fat, but i have a sweet tooth and bad teeth because of it.
would you be doing righteousness to give me all the chocolate i could stomach?
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Re: Jesus and Wine: What do you want to force the scriptures to mean.
But Jesus, you could cause another brother to stumble ... Actually no. TO cause someone to stumble is to cause someone to do something they still believe is a sin by what it is you personally do. For example: I had an ex-alcoholic and his wife over to the house for dinner. I asked him if there was any chance that he would do anything that he believed to be sin as a result of my serving "real" wine with dinner. His reply was, "There is no risk at all of that happening, that he was now in control of his life, and his appetites, and that he would like a small glass as well."
No "stumbling", i.e. someone eating meat sacrificed to idols when they still believed idols were an issue, or any such thing. Again, keep in mind that Jesus and all of the early Christian church never saw it as an issue. The question is, why do some modern religious groups choose to adopt some of the views of the religious leaders of Jesus time instead of the views of Jesus on the topic?
But Jesus, you could cause another brother to stumble ... Actually no. TO cause someone to stumble is to cause someone to do something they still believe is a sin by what it is you personally do. For example: I had an ex-alcoholic and his wife over to the house for dinner. I asked him if there was any chance that he would do anything that he believed to be sin as a result of my serving "real" wine with dinner. His reply was, "There is no risk at all of that happening, that he was now in control of his life, and his appetites, and that he would like a small glass as well."
No "stumbling", i.e. someone eating meat sacrificed to idols when they still believed idols were an issue, or any such thing. Again, keep in mind that Jesus and all of the early Christian church never saw it as an issue. The question is, why do some modern religious groups choose to adopt some of the views of the religious leaders of Jesus time instead of the views of Jesus on the topic?
K
Re: Jesus and Wine: What do you want to force the scriptures to mean.
Wonderful,that person had control.But many dont.Alcohol is not something that is needed.Let me ask you,do you have any compunction about walking into a liquor store and buying booze?Not WalMart,an actual liquor store.How many lives have been wrecked,how many marriages because of booze? We should not been seen in such places.Where would people drink? At a bar? Is that right? Or only at a restaurant.Whats the rule?Because if a person has no problem going to a bar or a liquor barn as a Christian something is wrong.That is a horrible testimony.
ps. Why would you serve alcohol knowing your friend had had a problem?If that took that glass of wine and fell off the wagon would you not feel any guilt? Alcoholism is very serious,one drink can lead to the next and then back at square one.
Wonderful,that person had control.But many dont.Alcohol is not something that is needed.Let me ask you,do you have any compunction about walking into a liquor store and buying booze?Not WalMart,an actual liquor store.How many lives have been wrecked,how many marriages because of booze? We should not been seen in such places.Where would people drink? At a bar? Is that right? Or only at a restaurant.Whats the rule?Because if a person has no problem going to a bar or a liquor barn as a Christian something is wrong.That is a horrible testimony.
ps. Why would you serve alcohol knowing your friend had had a problem?If that took that glass of wine and fell off the wagon would you not feel any guilt? Alcoholism is very serious,one drink can lead to the next and then back at square one.
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Re: Jesus and Wine: What do you want to force the scriptures to mean.
you know, I normally agree with you, but you are WAY off base on this. alcohol is not evil, people abuse it. as you said, one drink CAN lead to another, it does not ALWAYS lead another. having a computer does not mean a person is going to get hooked on porn. having a drink does not mean a life ruined. wrong on this one.
you know, I normally agree with you, but you are WAY off base on this. alcohol is not evil, people abuse it. as you said, one drink CAN lead to another, it does not ALWAYS lead another. having a computer does not mean a person is going to get hooked on porn. having a drink does not mean a life ruined. wrong on this one.