Jesus and Wine

[posthuman]

1 Corinthians 8:13 (NKJV) Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never again eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble.

i take it then we must assume that there were neither alcoholics teetering on the edge of destruction at Cana,
and there were not gluttons a hairsbreadth away from absolute moral collapse at the feeding of the 5,000



or perhaps we ought to recognize:

So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe,
“The stone that the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone,”
and
“A stone of stumbling,
and a rock of offense.”
(1 Peter 2:7-8)

has Christ become a stumbling stone to those that love drunkenness? to gluttons? to the proud & haughty?
yes, i think He has.

 

[SeaBass]

I have told you twice now how Jewish tradition plays into this, and how you need to take that into account.

The second thing that you would be wrong on, is just like I tried to explain to Jason on here who had another thread on this same subject of water to wine. Is that you take and have misplaced blame if you put another's misuse of alcohol on the Lord.

God makes it clear He makes all things the bad and the good.
The reason for this is like given as an example in the book of Job, are faith is tested to see if it is a genuine faith.
The Lord does not tempt anybody, for those temptations are within us. We choose to act or not act on those temptations.
So when Jesus turned water into wine, even with it being fermented. It falls on the individuals there at that time if they drink in an acceptable manner, or if they misuse it.

Just like food, God made all the food for us. Can you eat in a sensible manner, or can you take and abuse eating turning it into an idol. Yes on both accounts. Anything can become a crutch that leads one to stay in sin, or go back to a life of sin.
He falls on how we use or misuse what is given.

First, God did not make any thing bad, all God miraculously created was "very good", Gen 1:31, man perverts what God created into bad things as in making alcohol to become drunk. The more reason to believe that what Christ miraculously created at Cana was the natural grape juice that was very good just as God created at the beginning.


Secondly, you did not address the two issues that I raised. If the Jewish tradition, as you claim, is to drink fermented wine, then IF methyo means they were drunk and Christ created fermented wine adding to their already drunken state that would be a sin on the part of Christ, correct? If Christ created fermented wine then He was sanctioning the EXCESS of drinking fermented wine, correct?

IF they had been drinking fermented wine and Christ made more fermented wine, then why would what Christ made taste different from the fermented wine they had already been drinking? How could they distinguish "bad wine" from "good wine"?

Lastly, "It must be observed,that the adjective used to describe the wine made by Christ is not agathos, good, simply, butkalos, that which is morally excellent or befitting. The term is suggestive of Theophrastus’ characterization of unintoxicating wine as moral (ethikos) wine."
Leon C. Field, Oinos: A Discussion of the Bible Wine Question (New York, 1883), p. 57.

 

[posthuman]

man perverts what God created into bad things as in making alcohol to become drunk.

can you show me where Noah was reprimanded for planting a vineyard, making wine, drinking it and passing out?
i read that Ham was cursed, but not Noah. (Genesis 9:20-27)

If Christ created fermented wine then He was sanctioning the EXCESS of drinking fermented wine, correct?

did God make honey? did God make wisdom?
If you have found honey, eat only enough for you,
lest you have your fill of it and vomit it.
(Proverbs 25:16)

did God sanction gluttony when He caused the bees to make their hive in the carcass of the lion? did God tempt Samson?
Some time later, when he went back to marry her, he turned aside to look at the lion’s carcass, and in it he saw a swarm of bees and some honey. He scooped out the honey with his hands and ate as he went along. When he rejoined his parents, he gave them some, and they too ate it.
(Judges 14:8-9)

are you denying the 'personal responsibility' that you often espouse?

Lastly, "It must be observed,that the adjective used to describe the wine made by Christ is not agathos, good, simply, butkalos, that which is morally excellent or befitting. The term is suggestive of Theophrastus’ characterization of unintoxicating wine as moral (ethikos) wine."
Leon C. Field, Oinos: A Discussion of the Bible Wine Question (New York, 1883), p. 57.

Leon, how does this keep with what the emcee said -- that men put out the "good" wine first, and after the guests are well drunk, put out the cheap stuff? does your idea of "moral" wine make men "well drunk" or not? hmm?

 

[posthuman]

If Christ created fermented wine then He was sanctioning the EXCESS of drinking fermented wine, correct?

if God gave us tongues that are able to go on talking long after they should have kept their peace,

is God to blame if He hasn't cut mine off, and i'm able to go on spouting foolishness?

mr. Bass, i thought you said we are accountable for our actions in both good works and in sin?

 

[SeaBass]

Re: Jesus and Wine: What do you want to force the scriptures to mean.

Here's another one:

1Co 11:20 Therefore when you meet together, it is not to eat the Lord's Supper, 21 for in your eating each one takes his own supper first; and one is hungry and another is drunk. 22 What! Do you not have houses in which to eat and drink? Or do you despise the church of God and shame those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you? In this I will not praise you.

Well, there is the grape juice from concentrate crowd. The problem is this, while there is alcohol even in grape juice from concentrate, or paste … the percentage is low. So low, in fact that, to get drunk on “wine” made from concentrate, you would need to consume over 6 gallons in an hour per person. Possible, I suppose, if God performed a miracle. You see, the stomach would burst at between 3-4 gallons in an hour.

I suppose that it could be a miraculous “drunkenness” as well. i.e. they only had a glass or two of reconstituted grape juice, and God performed a miracle and made them drunk.
The question is, what kind of hermeneutical contortionism are we prepared to execute to hold fast to our beliefs? Would out doctrines prevent Christ Himself from serving in our ministries? Would it prevent any of the disciples from serving in our churches? Did they not have issues with drunkenness throughout the times the scriptures were written? Is God … Christ … not aware of the dangers to His ministry, and by His example, to others, by drinking alcohol? What about the opinions of others? Avoiding any appearance of evil? What will the religious people think?

A person could consider the Savior a … well … a … dare I say it … a drunkard based on what He drinks, could he not? Oh the shame of it all. Thank God our religious leaders would consider such behaviors as shameful and would discredit any person from religious service based on such habitual practices.

Thank God we have “Godly” church leadership that prevents those with such "practices" from being in leadership of our churches. If we were to become followers of such people, with such habits, of those who use real wine for communion wine ... God knows what could happen.

1 Cor 11:21,22 "For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not."

First, Paul condemns drunkenness, Rom 13:13; Gal 5:21, so why would Paul contradict himself and supposedly approve of drunkenness at houses? If the Corinthians were drunk Paul certainly would have condemned it.

Secondly, the Greek word for "drunken" in v20 is methyo and carries the idea of being full, satiated. In the context Paul is contrasting "hungry" with "drunken". Some were hungry or empty and had nothing to eat while others were full, had eaten and were sated, full.
Leon C Field " "Methuei, (drunken) in this case, is plainly contrasted with peina which is correctly rendered as ‘hungry.’ The antithesis, therefore, requires the former to be understood in the generic sense of ‘surfeited,’ not in the narrow sense of ‘drunken.’ The overfilled man is compared to the underfilled man. This is the interpretation adopted by the great body of expositors, ancient and modern."
Leon C. Field, Oinos: A Discussion of the Bible Wine Question (New York, 1883), p. 60

 

[SeaBass]

can you show me where Noah was reprimanded for planting a vineyard, making wine, drinking it and passing out?
i read that Ham was cursed, but not Noah. (Genesis 9:20-27)



did God make honey? did God make wisdom?
If you have found honey, eat only enough for you,
lest you have your fill of it and vomit it.
(Proverbs 25:16)

did God sanction gluttony when He caused the bees to make their hive in the carcass of the lion? did God tempt Samson?
Some time later, when he went back to marry her, he turned aside to look at the lion’s carcass, and in it he saw a swarm of bees and some honey. He scooped out the honey with his hands and ate as he went along. When he rejoined his parents, he gave them some, and they too ate it.
(Judges 14:8-9)

are you denying the 'personal responsibility' that you often espouse?



Leon, how does this keep with what the emcee said -- that men put out the "good" wine first, and after the guests are well drunk, put out the cheap stuff? does your idea of "moral" wine make men "well drunk" or not? hmm?

God created grapes/grape juice, man made fermented wine out of it. God created grain man made distilled liquor out of it. God created sex, man created adultery, homosexuality out of it.

The bible does not explicitly condemn or condones Noah's drunkenness. Lack of condemnation does not mean it was approved, many other OT verses condemn strong drink, fermented wine and drunkenness.

I asked IF methyo means they were drunk and Christ created fermented wine adding to their already drunken state that would be a sin on the part of Christ, correct? If Christ created fermented wine then He was sanctioning the EXCESS of drinking fermented wine, correct?

You did not answer.

I also asked "IF they had been drinking fermented wine and Christ made more fermented wine, then why would what Christ made taste different from the fermented wine they had already been drinking? How could they distinguish "bad wine" from "good wine"?"

You did not answer.

 

[SeaBass]

if God gave us tongues that are able to go on talking long after they should have kept their peace,

is God to blame if He hasn't cut mine off, and i'm able to go on spouting foolishness?

mr. Bass, i thought you said we are accountable for our actions in both good works and in sin?

God created what was very good, Gen 1:31 man perverted it. Again, God created grain that was good, man perverted it by making distilled liquor. God created sex that was good, man perverted it with adultery and homosexuality.

So God cannot be blamed for what man perverted.

 

[posthuman]

Re: Jesus and Wine: What do you want to force the scriptures to mean.

1 Cor 11:21,22 "For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not."

First, Paul condemns drunkenness, Rom 13:13; Gal 5:21, so why would Paul contradict himself and supposedly approve of drunkenness at houses? If the Corinthians were drunk Paul certainly would have condemned it.

Secondly, the Greek word for "drunken" in v20 is methyo and carries the idea of being full, satiated. In the context Paul is contrasting "hungry" with "drunken". Some were hungry or empty and had nothing to eat while others were full, had eaten and were sated, full.

Paul doesn't condemn them for having alcoholic wine here; he condemns their selfishness and says they ought to be sharing. if the problem was that their oinos was of the 'immoral' kind, why not mention that at all?

let's be Berean about this.
methyo -- "drunk" -- same word used here:

For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, are drunk at night.
(1 Thessalonians 5:7)

and, interestingly enough, here:

“Everyone serves the good wine first, and when people have drunk freely, then the poor wine.
But you have kept the good wine until now.”
(John 2:10)

now why would you serve more oinos to anyone who has had so much they don't want any more?

same word used here, too:

For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day.
(Acts 2:15)

did those at pentecost appear to have full, satisfied bellies? yes, i think so, but i doubt very much that that is the accusation the crowd made and that Peter meant to address.

same word also used here:

But if that wicked servant says to himself,
‘My master is delayed,’
and begins to beat his fellow servants and eats and drinks with drunkards ..
(Matthew 24:48-49)

wicked servants eat with people who have had enough to eat..? this is making less and less sense...

same word also used here:

And on her forehead was written a name of mystery:
“Babylon the great, mother of prostitutes and of earth’s abominations.”
And I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of the martyrs of Jesus.
(Revelation 17:5-6)

do you think the whore of Babylon is "sated" and "satisfied" ?
is that the sense?
is it any sense at all??

 

[posthuman]

So God cannot be blamed for what man perverted.

so you are telling me it is Christ who "perverted" the water at Cana?

or is it the drunk who gazes at wine 'as it sparkles in the cup,' who perverts what is meant to be received thankfully, in his heart?

i don't think we need to "pervert" scripture to understand this.

 

[SeaBass]

can you show me where Noah was reprimanded for planting a vineyard, making wine, drinking it and passing out?
i read that Ham was cursed, but not Noah. (Genesis 9:20-27)

Almost forgot. God wanted one man married to one woman for life. David had many, many wives, but nowhere did God tell David to get rid of them all but one. Does that allow for polygamy today?

 

[john832]

God created what was very good, Gen 1:31 man perverted it. Again, God created grain that was good, man perverted it by making distilled liquor. God created sex that was good, man perverted it with adultery and homosexuality.

So God cannot be blamed for what man perverted.

Why did God tell people to buy wine and strong drink to celebrate His Feast Days?

Deu 14:22 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.
Deu 14:23 And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.
Deu 14:24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:
Deu 14:25 Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose:
Deu 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

The Hebrew word for wine here is...

H3196

יַיִן
yayin
yah'-yin
From an unused root meaning to effervesce; wine (as fermented); by implication intoxication: - banqueting, wine, wine [-bibber].
Total KJV occurrences: 140

And the word for strong drink here is...

H7941

שֵׁכָר
shêkâr
shay-kawr'
From H7937; an intoxicant, that is, intensely alcoholic liquor: - strong drink, + drunkard, strong wine.
Total KJV occurrences: 23

So, God is telling His people to sin at the Feasts? Or rather is the proper use of alcoholic beverages something that enhances the Feasts?

Deu 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

Why the command to rejoice and celebrate the Feasts?

Deu 14:23 And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.

 

[posthuman]

God created what was very good, Gen 1:31 man perverted it. Again, God created grain that was good, man perverted it by making distilled liquor. God created sex that was good, man perverted it with adultery and homosexuality.

God created yeast.

are the Psalms inspired?

He makes grass grow for the cattle,
and plants for people to cultivate—
bringing forth food from the earth:
wine that gladdens human hearts,
oil to make their faces shine,
and bread that sustains their hearts.
(Psalm 104:14-15)

who does the scripture say makes wine, and oil, and bread?

 

[SeaBass]

Re: Jesus and Wine: What do you want to force the scriptures to mean.

Paul doesn't condemn them for having alcoholic wine here; he condemns their selfishness and says they ought to be sharing. if the problem was that their oinos was of the 'immoral' kind, why not mention that at all?

let's be Berean about this.
methyo -- "drunk" -- same word used here:

For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, are drunk at night.
(1 Thessalonians 5:7)

and, interestingly enough, here:

“Everyone serves the good wine first, and when people have drunk freely, then the poor wine.
But you have kept the good wine until now.”
(John 2:10)

now why would you serve more oinos to anyone who has had so much they don't want any more?

same word used here, too:

For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day.
(Acts 2:15)

did those at pentecost appear to have full, satisfied bellies? yes, i think so, but i doubt very much that that is the accusation the crowd made and that Peter meant to address.

same word also used here:

But if that wicked servant says to himself,
‘My master is delayed,’
and begins to beat his fellow servants and eats and drinks with drunkards ..
(Matthew 24:48-49)

wicked servants eat with people who have had enough to eat..? this is making less and less sense...

same word also used here:

And on her forehead was written a name of mystery:
“Babylon the great, mother of prostitutes and of earth’s abominations.”
And I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of the martyrs of Jesus.
(Revelation 17:5-6)

do you think the whore of Babylon is "sated" and "satisfied" ?
is that the sense?
is it any sense at all??

The generic meaning of methuo is full or satiated with a more narrow meaning of drunkenness. In the LXX, David said my cup overflows/methuo. David is not saying his cup was drunken but was full. In 1 Cor 11:21 Paul is saying some were empty/hungry while others were full, the contrast being between empty and full not empty and drunk.

 

[kennethcadwell]

First, God did not make any thing bad, all God miraculously created was "very good", Gen 1:31, man perverts what God created into bad things as in making alcohol to become drunk. The more reason to believe that what Christ miraculously created at Cana was the natural grape juice that was very good just as God created at the beginning.


Secondly, you did not address the two issues that I raised. If the Jewish tradition, as you claim, is to drink fermented wine, then IF methyo means they were drunk and Christ created fermented wine adding to their already drunken state that would be a sin on the part of Christ, correct? If Christ created fermented wine then He was sanctioning the EXCESS of drinking fermented wine, correct?

IF they had been drinking fermented wine and Christ made more fermented wine, then why would what Christ made taste different from the fermented wine they had already been drinking? How could they distinguish "bad wine" from "good wine"?

Lastly, "It must be observed,that the adjective used to describe the wine made by Christ is not agathos, good, simply, butkalos, that which is morally excellent or befitting. The term is suggestive of Theophrastus’ characterization of unintoxicating wine as moral (ethikos) wine."
Leon C. Field, Oinos: A Discussion of the Bible Wine Question (New York, 1883), p. 57.

God does not make bad or evil, well the bible would not agree with you;

Proverbs 16:4
The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil.

Yes I did answer you on what you said. You have misguided blame, for you would be blaming Christ for their misuse of alcohol.
Obviously you are not a wine drinker, or you would know that you can taste the difference in the quality of wines.
I don't know where you are getting the rest of your words for wine here now, because there was only one word used for wine here and that was oinos, which I agree could be unfermented or fermented.
The easy way to solve this which some don't like to do is look at Jewish tradition from that time, because looking into Jewish tradition at that time would end up ruling out unfermented wine.

I will just say be careful using the septuagint and lexicons, and use in depth study besides those sources because there are well known translation errors in them and miss defined meaning of words.

 

[SeaBass]

so you are telling me it is Christ who "perverted" the water at Cana?

or is it the drunk who gazes at wine 'as it sparkles in the cup,' who perverts what is meant to be received thankfully, in his heart?

i don't think we need to "pervert" scripture to understand this.

Christ created unfermented wine.

 

[john832]

God does not make bad or evil, well the bible would not agree with you;

Proverbs 16:4
The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil.

Yes I did answer you on what you said. You have misguided blame, for you would be blaming Christ for their misuse of alcohol.
Obviously you are not a wine drinker, or you would know that you can taste the difference in the quality of wines.
I don't know where you are getting the rest of your words for wine here now, because there was only one word used for wine here and that was oinos, which I agree could be unfermented or fermented.
The easy way to solve this which some don't like to do is look at Jewish tradition from that time, because looking into Jewish tradition at that time would end up ruling out unfermented wine.

I will just say be careful using the septuagint and lexicons, and use in depth study besides those sources because there are well known translation errors in them and miss defined meaning of words.

If I may add to your post...

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

 

[john832]

Christ created unfermented wine.

OK, scripture please.

 

[posthuman]

Christ created unfermented wine.

while that satisfies the abolitionist - and the carnal show of feigned morality that demands 'touch not, taste not, handle not', it doesn't jive with scripture.

Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse:
[but] thou hast kept the good wine until now.

it is like you say, God creates what is good - even the scripture - and men pervert it to their own ends.

 

[kaylagrl]

Re: Jesus and Wine: What do you want to force the scriptures to mean.

you know, I normally agree with you, but you are WAY off base on this. alcohol is not evil, people abuse it. as you said, one drink CAN lead to another, it does not ALWAYS lead another. having a computer does not mean a person is going to get hooked on porn. having a drink does not mean a life ruined. wrong on this one.

Well great minds think alike so we must both be pretty great Still disagree on this one but wont beat a dead horse.Cranberry and Sprite anyone?

 

[posthuman]

Re: Jesus and Wine: What do you want to force the scriptures to mean.

The generic meaning of methuo is full or satiated with a more narrow meaning of drunkenness. In the LXX, David said my cup overflows/methuo. David is not saying his cup was drunken but was full. In 1 Cor 11:21 Paul is saying some were empty/hungry while others were full, the contrast being between empty and full not empty and drunk.

David spoke in Hebrew. Paul in Greek. we're looking at a Greek word here, and specifically a Greek word Paul used, to understand what he meant by it.

you didn't address a single verse i brought up. . ?
why? is it not profitable?