Jesus and Wine

[Jabberjaw]

The Bible condemns gluttony...



so therefore it condemns all varying degrees of gluttony. Quite eating, it is sin.

Again, you fail to understand the context of the word translated "glutton" :

GLUTTON One habitually given to greedy and voracious eating. Gluttony was associated with stubbornness, rebellion, disobedience, drunkenness, and wastefulness (Deut. 21:20). A more general meaning for the Hebrew term as a “good-for-nothing” (Prov. 28:7 TEV) is reflected in some translations: wastrel (Deut. 21:20 REB); profligate (Deut. 21:20 NIV; Prov. 28:7 REB); riotous (Prov. 28:7 KJV). When Jesus was accused of being a “glutton and wine-drinker” (Matt. 11:19; Luke 7:34), it was in this expanded sense of being one given to loose and excessive living. The Bible knows gluttony makes one sleepy and leads to not working and poverty (Prov. 23:21).

Holman Bible Dictionary.

(emboldening and underlining emphasis mine)

 

[gb9]

and you fail to recognize the difference between having a drink and getting stumbling staggering drunk.

 

[Jabberjaw]

and you fail to recognize the difference between having a drink and getting stumbling staggering drunk.

And you or anyone else has not been able to show me anything other than their own biased opinion as to where our Lord draws the line between sober and drunk?

The bible is clear when it says be sober, it is also clear it is a sin to be drunk, and unless you can come up with a verse that draws a line somewhere, it MUST be assumed anything but sober is drunk.

You are willing to risk your salvation on YOUR opinion what "drunk" is in attempt to justify your use of intoxicants, but don't take others down YOUR unprovable path

 

[Kerry]

Alcohol is a spirit is it not and what kind is it? If it's okay to have a glass of wine then why not one toke of a joint or a half line of cocaine or 1/4 of a hit of ecstasy. what is the difference?

 

[dcontroversal]

Alcohol is a spirit is it not and what kind is it? If it's okay to have a glass of wine then why not one toke of a joint or a half line of cocaine or 1/4 of a hit of ecstasy. what is the difference?

The difference is that the bible has numerous scriptures that deal with wine and strong drink and NONE that apply unto weed, coke and or pills......

It is not those things that enter into the body that defiles a man, but rather those things that come forth from a man that defiles a man!

 

[Kerry]

The difference is that the bible has numerous scriptures that deal with wine and strong drink and NONE that apply unto weed, coke and or pills......

It is not those things that enter into the body that defiles a man, but rather those things that come forth from a man that defiles a man!

But whats the difference?

 

[dcontroversal]

But whats the difference?

The difference is a glass of wine does not make one a drunk or drunk.........and Proverbs 31:6-7 States....Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those of a heavy heart. Let him drink and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.

1st Timothy 5:23...use a little wine for thy stomach's sake...

It is a matter of three things....
1. Not being drunk in excess
2. Not offending a weaker brother
3. Moderation

The scriptures are clear and context dictates if it is fermented wine or grape juice...

Jesus himself said...(paraphrasing)

I sent John unto straight laced and walking the line...you didn't listen
I came eating and drinking and you call me gluttonous and a drunk (wine bibber)
Either way you did not listen

Too many people go to seed on something and are blind to the bigger picture.....Jesus said clearly...IT IS NOT THOSE THINGS THAT ENTER INTO A MAN THE DEFILES A MAN......WINE included!

 

[Kerry]

Well a a half snort of cocaine does not make high either. So I guess its okay

 

[Kerry]

Then Read Proverbs 20

 

[Kerry]

Y'all are mistaken wine in the bible is grape juice. Grape juice was not separated from wine until al capone. Before that anything that came from a grape was called wine.

 

[Jabberjaw]

The difference is a glass of wine does not make one a drunk or drunk.........and Proverbs 31:6-7 States....Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those of a heavy heart. Let him drink and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.

1st Timothy 5:23...use a little wine for thy stomach's sake...

It is a matter of three things....
1. Not being drunk in excess
2. Not offending a weaker brother
3. Moderation

The scriptures are clear and context dictates if it is fermented wine or grape juice...

Jesus himself said...(paraphrasing)

I sent John unto straight laced and walking the line...you didn't listen
I came eating and drinking and you call me gluttonous and a drunk (wine bibber)
Either way you did not listen

Too many people go to seed on something and are blind to the bigger picture.....Jesus said clearly...IT IS NOT THOSE THINGS THAT ENTER INTO A MAN THE DEFILES A MAN......WINE included!

You give two examples of intoxicants used as a drug, Proverbs 31:6-7 and 1st Timothy 5:23, These men in Proverbs 31:6-7 were condemned to die... the same thing was offered to our Lord on the cross :

Mark 15:23 (NKJV) Then they gave Him wine mingled with myrrh to drink, but He did not take it.

He refused it, if he was used to drinking it as you try to portray why refuse it?, how do your verses help your POV that alcohol is permissible? when other verses condemn it (Proverbs 21:1), God is not the author of confusion (1 Cor. 14:33).

 

[dcontroversal]

Y'all are mistaken wine in the bible is grape juice. Grape juice was not separated from wine until al capone. Before that anything that came from a grape was called wine.

Well no offence but this was just a little off base and misses the mark by about a mile.........

Be not drunk with grape juice in excess<-------God must have inspired the wrong word...that word being wine.....!

Re: Jesus and Wine

Then Read Proverbs 20 <---does not alleviate Proverbs 31 and Timothy references

Re: Jesus and Wine

Well a a half snort of cocaine does not make high either. So I guess its okay <---another statement that is half cocked and is something that someone would say that cannot logically argue a position that is not defensible.


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[Tintin]

Y'all are mistaken wine in the bible is grape juice. Grape juice was not separated from wine until al capone. Before that anything that came from a grape was called wine.

Kerry, I love you, brother, but I don't know where you get your 'facts' about wine. This is simply not true.

 

[dcontroversal]

You give two examples of intoxicants used as a drug, Proverbs 31:6-7 and 1st Timothy 5:23, These men in Proverbs 31:6-7 were condemned to die... the same thing was offered to our Lord on the cross :

Mark 15:23 (NKJV) Then they gave Him wine mingled with myrrh to drink, but He did not take it.

He refused it, if he was used to drinking it as you try to portray why refuse it?, how do your verses help your POV that alcohol is permissible? when other verses condemn it (Proverbs 21:1), God is not the author of confusion (1 Cor. 14:33).

No offence, but you do not even understand biblical salvation much less the scriptures that deal with wine.....IT IS NOT THOSE THINGS THAT ENTER INTO A MAN THAT DEFILE A MAN<--go learn what this means!

 

[gb9]

And you or anyone else has not been able to show me anything other than their own biased opinion as to where our Lord draws the line between sober and drunk?

The bible is clear when it says be sober, it is also clear it is a sin to be drunk, and unless you can come up with a verse that draws a line somewhere, it MUST be assumed anything but sober is drunk.

You are willing to risk your salvation on YOUR opinion what "drunk" is in attempt to justify your use of intoxicants, but don't take others down YOUR unprovable path

did you not go back into the O.T. like I mentioned to you last week and look at what was defined as being drunk?? no, you are not interested in FACTS, you want to just spout your wrong opinions. because that what your views are. opinions. not Biblical facts.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

Re: Jesus and Wine: What do you want to force the scriptures to mean.

OK, ya'll. What did Jesus say about meats, understanding "meats" must include fruit of the vine in any sense since He changed water into wine? Drinks were considered part of the diet. The law prohibited spirit drinks, like those distilled from grain.

Mark 7:14-23 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] And when he had called all the people unto him, he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one of you, and understand:
[SUP]15 [/SUP] There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] And when he was entered into the house from the people, his disciples asked him concerning the parable.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?
[SUP]20 [/SUP] And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
[SUP]23 [/SUP] All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

It isn't factual that all people who occasionally drink alcohol moderately defile themselves by it. Many do, but that can't be a reason to say alcohol itself is evil. We could lump food into the discussion. We could add in pain pills, sodas, candy. Lots of stuff people stuff into their mouths can cause destruction of health and death. I've dealt with men that turned to alcoholism watching their wives eat themselves to go from 125 pounds to 400 in a few years, and vice versa. A person can get off alcohol a lot easier than abuse of food, seeing there's a large array of fattening foods bought cheaply with food stamps.

 

[Jabberjaw]

No offence, but you do not even understand biblical salvation much less the scriptures that deal with wine.....IT IS NOT THOSE THINGS THAT ENTER INTO A MAN THAT DEFILE A MAN<--go learn what this means!

I have, everything that comes out of your mouth is poluted, you call people names when you're backed into a wall with your man made doctrine and deflect with babble and arrogance.

Again since you did not address the issue (because you cannot) :

You give two examples of intoxicants used as a drug, Proverbs 31:6-7 and 1st Timothy 5:23, These men in Proverbs 31:6-7 were condemned to die... the same thing was offered to our Lord on the cross :

Mark 15:23 (NKJV) Then they gave Him wine mingled with myrrh to drink, but He did not take it.

He refused it, if he was used to drinking it as you try to portray why refuse it?, how do your verses help your POV that alcohol is permissible? when other verses condemn it (Proverbs 21:1), God is not the author of confusion (1 Cor. 14:33).

 

[Jabberjaw]

did you not go back into the O.T. like I mentioned to you last week and look at what was defined as being drunk?? no, you are not interested in FACTS, you want to just spout your wrong opinions. because that what your views are. opinions. not Biblical facts.

I saw no definition of "drunk", you posted scripture of people falling down, yet you cannot say if they were drunk before they fell down, you cannot say if they were drunk after their first drink.

The bible says "be sober" you cannot "be sober" and drink alcohol, the two cannot coexist in a person.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

Y'all are mistaken wine in the bible is grape juice. Grape juice was not separated from wine until al capone. Before that anything that came from a grape was called wine.

Wine is made from grape juice. Grape juice that is not fermented soon turns sour, considered a curse in scripture. Sour grapes is fit only to be spit out. Try this. Buy a little Welch's.

This experiment is not recommended to actually perform, given only to make a point. Break the seal. Leave some of it out of the fridge, check on it in a few weeks. You will find it is not fit to drink. There will be globs of growths and foam, and you will know not to taste it. Modern grape juice bottles will say it is "Pasteurized, Refrigerate After Opening". Unopened it will keep a long time without fermenting. Pasteurization began in 1856, when Pasteur discovered one yeast made alcohol in beet juice, then another microbe turned it into vinegar. it is impossible that grape juice ever was immune to microbial conversions. Grape wine is made from crushed grapes with added sugar and proper yeast (not any yeast flying around) fermented a few weeks, screened, and bottled. They used animal skins, bladders, and pottery for bottling it in ancient times. If not fermented, the whole harvest of juice spoiled too soon. It was known long ago the alcohol content could be controlled while fermenting, so a Jew could keep it legal by adjusting the ingredients and time, making it just strong enough to preserve the wine for months as long as it remained sealed. He was subject to inspections by priests to keep it safe for general use. Any strong wine got poured out by priests onto the ground before the Lord.