When does the rapture occur?
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The Bowls are the Wrath of God poured out by His Angels. The Bowls are poured AFTER the Tribulation, not during. Show me any passage that tells us that the Bowls are poured out during the Tribulation...
The Bowls are poured out specifically against the Beast and his kingdom in response to the Tribulation the Beast has been putting God's people through. This point is made crystal clear in Rev 16, 18 as well as 2 Thes 1, Rev 6 and Luke 18:8 and other places.
The Bowls are poured out specifically against the Beast and his kingdom in response to the Tribulation the Beast has been putting God's people through. This point is made crystal clear in Rev 16, 18 as well as 2 Thes 1, Rev 6 and Luke 18:8 and other places.
There are two resurrections. The first are those specifically martyred during the Tribulation. Rev 20:4 tells us this:
I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
The passage goes on to tells us about when everyone else is resurrected.
5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished.
I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
The passage goes on to tells us about when everyone else is resurrected.
5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished.
Popeye,
Correct. 1 Thes 4 discusses the return of God the Father after the Millennial reign of Christ. God is clearly identified as the one doing the "bringing" in verse 14. Rev 20:5 tells us the rest of the dead do not live again until the 1,000 years are over.
You have this completely backwards. I was referring to "Nobody being left behind to go through the Tribulation" after believers are Raptured. Mat 13 tells us clearly TWICE that the wicked are first gathered and thrown into the furnace.
41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, 50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth."
Therefore the one in the field taken is the wicked one. The righteous is "left behind" to enter the kingdom.
40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn." ' "
Yes gathered - not snatch up and whisked off to heaven. I totally understand the purpose of the GT, do you? You think it is God pouring out his wrath on a bunch of wicked people when you are 180 degrees off. It is Satan's wrath and we are to be tested and tempted just as Christ was before He began His ministry on earth and just as Adam and Eve were. Sadly, most are already failing the test because they have allowed Satan's to alter the Word of God and have now twisted the Word and have everything backwards.
This is Armageddon. This is the forces of evil arrayed against Israel in overwhelming numbers set to destroy her. It is here at the 6th trumpet where God does intervene and the Arab world along with her Russian allies are killed. The 200 million are Christ's angels coming down to wipe out Satan.
I believe Christ returns AFTER the Tribulation but I do NOT believe that this is the "rapture." No living person is changed here. The martyrs of the Tribulation are resurrected and return with Christ but the living ELECT are simply gathered by the Angels of Christ to Him. Nothing tells us they are changed (When Christ returns) so I don't assume they are.
Correct. 1 Thes 4 discusses the return of God the Father after the Millennial reign of Christ. God is clearly identified as the one doing the "bringing" in verse 14. Rev 20:5 tells us the rest of the dead do not live again until the 1,000 years are over.
You have this completely backwards. I was referring to "Nobody being left behind to go through the Tribulation" after believers are Raptured. Mat 13 tells us clearly TWICE that the wicked are first gathered and thrown into the furnace.
41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, 50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth."
Therefore the one in the field taken is the wicked one. The righteous is "left behind" to enter the kingdom.
40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn." ' "
Yes gathered - not snatch up and whisked off to heaven. I totally understand the purpose of the GT, do you? You think it is God pouring out his wrath on a bunch of wicked people when you are 180 degrees off. It is Satan's wrath and we are to be tested and tempted just as Christ was before He began His ministry on earth and just as Adam and Eve were. Sadly, most are already failing the test because they have allowed Satan's to alter the Word of God and have now twisted the Word and have everything backwards.
This is Armageddon. This is the forces of evil arrayed against Israel in overwhelming numbers set to destroy her. It is here at the 6th trumpet where God does intervene and the Arab world along with her Russian allies are killed. The 200 million are Christ's angels coming down to wipe out Satan.
I believe Christ returns AFTER the Tribulation but I do NOT believe that this is the "rapture." No living person is changed here. The martyrs of the Tribulation are resurrected and return with Christ but the living ELECT are simply gathered by the Angels of Christ to Him. Nothing tells us they are changed (When Christ returns) so I don't assume they are.
I gotta disagree here...
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Says here that Christians are changed at the last trump. What else occurs at the last trump?
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
At the trump. Which trump?
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
The seventh trump. How many trumpets are there?
Rev 8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
Seven. Christ returns at the last trump, which one is that? The seventh trump. The seventh trump is the last trump and what happens at the last trump?
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Says here that Christians are changed at the last trump. What else occurs at the last trump?
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
At the trump. Which trump?
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
The seventh trump. How many trumpets are there?
Rev 8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
Seven. Christ returns at the last trump, which one is that? The seventh trump. The seventh trump is the last trump and what happens at the last trump?
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
ALL ARE CORRECT. Just pick up a Bible and read it for yourself and stop listening to pastors who repeat the false doctrine they learned from wolves in seminary. Nothing and I mean absolutely nothing about the Pre-Trib Doctrine is Biblical. It is a tradition of men, inspired by the devil to lead good people astray.
7th trumpet is not the LAST TRUMPET!! Christ returns at the 7th Trumpet. God returns at the Last Trumpet when the Millennium is over. Note that God (the Lord HIMSELF) returns with the sound of HIS Trumpet. This is the second and final resurrection. 1 Thes 4 goes with 1 Cor 15:50-58 but these passages do NOT go with Mat 24:29-31. Jesus' return is approx 1,000 years earlier. There is no transformation of living associated with any passage that clearly identifies Christ as the one coming.
I think sophia is right. None of this is important enough to judge the salvation of another based on their understanding of End Times prophecy.
It's a good debate, but not one that should draw up any judgements or even heightened emotions.
1 Corinthians 13:
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
13 So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
Don't let us be so foolish as to think ourselves more learned than Paul.
It's a good debate, but not one that should draw up any judgements or even heightened emotions.
1 Corinthians 13:
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
13 So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
Don't let us be so foolish as to think ourselves more learned than Paul.
J
Jeremiah 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble [seven year tribulation period]...
John 14:1-3 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Colossians 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
1 Thessalonians 5:9-10 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
1 Thessalonians 1:8-10 For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing. For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
Romans 5:8-9 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Ephesians 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Interesting of Geneva Bible: 2 Thessalonians 2:3-8 Let no man deceive you by any means, for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that the man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition, which is an adversary, and exalteth himself against all that is called God, or that is worshipped, so that he doeth sit as God in the Temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doeth already work; only he which now withholdeth, shall let till he be taken out of the way. And then shall that wicked man be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the Spirit of his mouth, and shall abolish with the brightness of his coming.
Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
Revelation 5:9-10 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; and hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. [no tribulation seal yet opened]
Jude 1:14-15 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Revelation 19:11-14)
Genesis 7:13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark.
Genesis 18:32 And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.
Psalms 27:4-5 One thing have I desired of the LORD, that will I seek after; that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to behold the beauty of the LORD, and to enquire in his temple. For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock.
Isaiah 26:19-21 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers [wedding chambers], and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
1 Thessalonians 5:1-6 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.
Dr. Ed Hindson,
"I am not looking for the Antichrist, I’m looking for Jesus Christ. I am not even looking for the undertaker, I am looking for the uppertaker."
Here is the list of irrelevant things: our opinions of things we don't truly understand, yet pretend to understand.
I'll give a few examples, but the list is completed in the statement above.
-Things like how the Trinity can be called one even though there's three (just accept it, and move on. God will explain later)
-Things like how Christ is both fully man and fully God (just accept it and move on. God will explain later)
-Things like the exact order of the events of the End Times (just accept the outcome, prepare your heart. God will reveal it when the Time comes)
-Things like how God can be 100% Sovereign and yet not responsible for evil (just accept it, and move on. God will explain later)
Lots of people have strong opinions on these topics, and display their foolish pride before all men.
I've been guilty of doing it many times myself.
I'll give a few examples, but the list is completed in the statement above.
-Things like how the Trinity can be called one even though there's three (just accept it, and move on. God will explain later)
-Things like how Christ is both fully man and fully God (just accept it and move on. God will explain later)
-Things like the exact order of the events of the End Times (just accept the outcome, prepare your heart. God will reveal it when the Time comes)
-Things like how God can be 100% Sovereign and yet not responsible for evil (just accept it, and move on. God will explain later)
Lots of people have strong opinions on these topics, and display their foolish pride before all men.
I've been guilty of doing it many times myself.
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R
This still going? When you people going to get it in your heads? IT WILL HAPPEN WHEN IT HAPPENS! Why are you people trying to figure it out? it clearly says that Jesus will come like a thief in the night, The day Jesus comes back, NO ONE, NOT EVEN ANGELS IN HEAVEN DON'T KNOW, I tell you what! I even repeat it, NO ONE NOT EVEN THE ANGELS IN HEAVEN DON'T KNOW. Shall I repeat it once more? or you have finally got it in your heads now? Whether you believe it or not, you will never know, so why are you people trying to work things out?
R
Matthew 24:36 " But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father"
I will even repeat this, just in case it didn't go through,
Matthew 24:36 " But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father"
I will even repeat this, just in case it didn't go through,
Matthew 24:36 " But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father"