Well you're right but since it was posted there I figure I can still keep everything in order.
In the mean time, what do you think of my proof here:
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/104144-christmas-4.html#post1808843
Christmas
- Thread starter laura_charlotte
- Start date
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Well you're right but since it was posted there I figure I can still keep everything in order.
In the mean time, what do you think of my proof here:
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/104144-christmas-4.html#post1808843
J
JesusistheChrist
Guest
I have more than one objection to what you wrote (and I agree with certain things, too), but I'll only mention one of them now:
Basically, every priestly course would minister 5 times in the year...twice during their normal courses and three times during the three Feasts which all priests were required to minister during. What you've done with your "proof" is to calculate the timing of Christ's birth based upon your belief that Luke chapter 1 is referring to the FIRST TIME ("first" in the sense of not counting the other times when all priests were required to minister) that Zacharias ministered in "the course of Abia", thereby coming up with a date of Christ's birth which would occur in the seventh month. Well, what date would you come up with if you calculated according to the SECOND TIME that Zacharias ministered in his normal "course of Abia" (again, "second" in the sense of not counting the other times when all priests were required to minister)?
Anyhow, I look forward to reading of your "issues" with what I suggested myself in my own post. Thanks.
S
sealchan
Guest
Whether Christmas inherited pagan elements or was inspired by pagan elements may not be as important as the fact that Christmas certainly has inherited some un-God-ly and a-Christian aspects today. Many people think of Christmas with little or no reference to Christ at all.
But as Christians we can each evaluate if we can celebrate Christmas in an appropriate way. We can not go crazy and make irresponsible financial decisions, we can make sure that we engage with family in a productive and caring way and we can make sure that we can stand up in a sea of greed and materialistic obsession and focus on the birth of Christ and all that has ensued from that as an historical event.
I also think that one can participate in the myth of Santa Claus so long as one grounds that belief in scriptural wisdom just as one can read C.S. Lewis' Chronicles of Narnia, J.R.R. Tolkien's Lord of the Rings and even the Left Behind series without having to worry about getting confused about what is sacred and what is instructively inspired by what is sacred.
But as Christians we can each evaluate if we can celebrate Christmas in an appropriate way. We can not go crazy and make irresponsible financial decisions, we can make sure that we engage with family in a productive and caring way and we can make sure that we can stand up in a sea of greed and materialistic obsession and focus on the birth of Christ and all that has ensued from that as an historical event.
I also think that one can participate in the myth of Santa Claus so long as one grounds that belief in scriptural wisdom just as one can read C.S. Lewis' Chronicles of Narnia, J.R.R. Tolkien's Lord of the Rings and even the Left Behind series without having to worry about getting confused about what is sacred and what is instructively inspired by what is sacred.
J
JesusistheChrist
Guest
I wouldn't even line my cat's litter box with a single page from any book in the "Left Behind" series. Quite frankly, I still laugh today when I think about one man's refutation of some of the unscriptural or, better still, anti-scriptural nonsense contained within that series that I read many years ago which he entitled "Kiss My Left Behind".
lol.
Anyhow, back to our regularly scheduled program...
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This is what the 1st Chronicles 24:7-18 passage is for. There is no assumption if we know when the 8th house is supposed to lead service (as High Priest).
[TABLE="class: grid, width: 500, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]Month[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Service Week[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Houses of Aaron[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD](no service; 1st Sabbath at end of this week)[/TD]
[TD]no house[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]1st week[/TD]
[TD]house 1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]1[/TD]
[TD]Unleavened Bread week (house 2 leads)[/TD]
[TD]all houses[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]2nd week[/TD]
[TD]house 2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]3rd week[/TD]
[TD]house 3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]4th week[/TD]
[TD]house 4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]5th week[/TD]
[TD]house 5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]6th week[/TD]
[TD]house 6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]7th week[/TD]
[TD]house 7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD]Feast of Shavuot week (house 8 leads)[/TD]
[TD]all houses[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]8th week[/TD]
[TD]house 8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]9th week[/TD]
[TD]house 9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]10th week[/TD]
[TD]house 10[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]11th week[/TD]
[TD]house 11[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]12th week[/TD]
[TD]house 12[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]13th week[/TD]
[TD]house 13[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]14th week[/TD]
[TD]house 14[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]15th week[/TD]
[TD]house 15[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]16th week[/TD]
[TD]house 16[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]17th week[/TD]
[TD]house 17[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]18th week[/TD]
[TD]house 18[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]19th week[/TD]
[TD]house 19[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]20th week[/TD]
[TD]house 20[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]21st week[/TD]
[TD]house 21[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]22nd week[/TD]
[TD]house 22[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]23rd week[/TD]
[TD]house 23[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]7[/TD]
[TD]Feast of Tabernacles (house 24 leads)[/TD]
[TD]all houses[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]24th week[/TD]
[TD]house 24[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]25th week[/TD]
[TD]house 1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]26th week[/TD]
[TD]house 2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]27th week[/TD]
[TD]house 3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]28th week[/TD]
[TD]house 4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]29th week[/TD]
[TD]house 5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]30th week[/TD]
[TD]house 6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]31st week[/TD]
[TD]house 7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]32nd week[/TD]
[TD]house 8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]33rd week[/TD]
[TD]house 9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]34th week[/TD]
[TD]house 10[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]35th week[/TD]
[TD]house 11[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]36th week[/TD]
[TD]house 12[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]37th week[/TD]
[TD]house 13[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]38th week[/TD]
[TD]house 14[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]39th week[/TD]
[TD]house 15[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]40th week[/TD]
[TD]house 16[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]41st week[/TD]
[TD]house 17[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]42nd week[/TD]
[TD]house 18[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]43rd week[/TD]
[TD]house 19[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]44th week[/TD]
[TD]house 20[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]45th week[/TD]
[TD]house 21[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]46th week[/TD]
[TD]house 22[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]47th week[/TD]
[TD]house 23[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]
[TD]48th week[/TD]
[TD]house 24[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Above in bold are the 5 times the 8th house serves in the temple...and only once - for the entire year - does the 8th house ever lead all other houses as High Priest, during the feast of Shavuot...and Shavuot/Pentecost is *ALWAYS* in the 3rd month. Additionally, *Only* the High Priest is allowed to enter into the temple's holy place to offer incense on a Feast day. And in Luke's account we read that this is exactly what Zechariah does...
Luke 1:9-10 [brackets mine]
The entire multitude (all peoples) is waiting outside while only the High Priest, the leader of service, is inside offering incense.
Time is the ultimate context because it's set in stone; never changing from year to year.
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J
JesusistheChrist
Guest
Huh?
Who said that Zacharias ever functioned in the role of High Priest? The text simply says that "his lot was to burn incense". Whenever a priestly order served in the temple, lots were drawn to see which priests would perform which daily functions and Zacharias apparently drew a lot to burn incense, but this does not make him a High Priest. If this list of Israel's High Priests is accurate, then you will notice that Zacharias' name is not found among them and especially not at the time when Jesus was born:
List of High Priests of Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Considering Israel doesn't even recognize THE High Priest (Christ) or John the Baptist as a priest, I'd say it isn't too accurate. But for the sake of any readers here, let's take away the word "High Priest". In fact, let's take away everything I said concerning "high Priest". Completely remove it. I have no problem doing that. Let's strip this down to it's bare information and return to the chart...just the chart...so that such a side issue doesn't become a red herring of sorts...The discussion is time; the biblical Calendar.
Is there a problem with the chart?
Zechariah was *still* of the 8th house correct?
The 8th house still *led* service after the first 7 houses, right?
Shavuot is *still* 7 weeks from Unleavened Bread week?
The 1st house begins their service in the 1st month right?
Unleavened Bread is *still* the middle of the 1st month, which makes Shavuot the 3rd month every single year doesn't it?
The timing still doesn't change right?
If you have a problem with with me saying "High Priest", that's fair...but what about the focus of my post as it relates to the timing of Christ's birth?
Christmas. — The word for Christmas in late O. E. is Cristes Maesse, the Mass of Christ, first found in 1038, and Cristes-messe, in 1131. In Dutch it is Kerst-misse, in Lat. Dies Natalis, whence Fr. Noel, and Ital. Il natale; in Ger. Weihnachtsfest, from the preceding sacred vigil. The term Yule is of disputed origin. It is unconnected with any word meaning "wheel". The name in A. S. was geol, feast: geola, the name of a month (cf. Icel. iol, a feast in December).
EARLY CELEBRATION.—Christmas was not among the earliest festivals of the Church. Irenaeus and Tertullian omit it from their lists of feasts; Origen, glancing perhaps at the discreditable imperial Natalitia, asserts (in Lev. Horn. viii in Migne, P.G., XII, 495) that in the Scriptures sinners alone, not saints, celebrate their birthday; Arnobius (VII, 32 in P.L., V, 1264) can still ridicule the "birthdays" of the gods. The first evidence of the feast is from Egypt. Clement of Alexandria, c. 200 (Strom., I, xxi in P.G., VIII, 888), says that certain Egyptian theologians "over curiously" assign, not the year alone, but the day of Christ's birth, placing it on 25 Pachon (May 20) in the twenty-eighth year of Augustus. [Ideler (Chron., II, 387, n.) thought they did this believing that the ninth month, in which Christ was born, was the ninth of their own calendar.] Others reached the date of 24 or 25 Pharmuthi (19 or April 20). With Clement's evidence may be mentioned the "De pascha computus", written in 243 and falsely ascribed to Cyprian (P.L., IV, 963 sqq.), which places Christ's birth on March 28, because on that day the material sun was created. But Lupi has shown (Zaccaria, Dissertazioni ecc. del p. A.M. Lupi, Faenza, 1785, p. 219) that there is no month in the year to which respectable authorities have not assigned Christ's birth. - Christmas - Original Catholic Encyclopedia
So, in essence, it doesn't matter what we do as long as we do it for God? Reminded me of this...
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
J
JesusistheChrist
Guest
I already addressed the "timing" issue with you in a previous response. Again, you're conveniently calculating from Zacharias' FIRST (Not counting the times when all orders of priests served simultaneously) time of serving according to his priestly order of Abia. What happens to the "timing" if you calculate from the SECOND (Again, not counting the times when all orders of priests served simultaneously) time of Zacharias' serving according to his priestly order of Abia?
Anyhow, in my link, I've given reasons why there's no way in the world that Christ was born on the Feast of Tabernacles and you've yet to address any of the same even though you claim that there are "issues" with them. For those who haven't yet followed my link and possibly never will, as you yourself acknowledge, "Yahshua", there were three times in the year when God required ALL ISRAELITE MALES TO BE IN JERUSALEM and the Feast of Tabernacles was one of those three times. With such being the case, why in the world would God require Joseph, AN ISRAELITE, to be IN BETHLEHEM during the Feast of Tabernacles for the birth of Christ as you allege? It's ludicrous. Furthermore, Caesar's decree required that EVERYONE return to their own city to register and this means that A WHOLE HOST OF ISRAELITE MEN would have been missing FROM JERUSALEM during this alleged time of the Feast of Tabernacles. Where was the public outcry against such a decree which insisted that Israelites disobey a direct commandment of their own God as you allege? It's was non-existent because such events did not transpire on the Feast of Tabernacles as you wrongly allege. Furthermore, as I documented in my link, seeing how you're presently posting about "timing", ironically, the "timing" is all wrong in what you allege. Yes, all of the Springtime Feasts (Passover, Unleavened Bread, Firstfruits and Pentecost) prophetically pointed to events which would be fulfilled AT CHRIST'S FIRST COMING. Why, then, would we be looking for the Feast of Trumpets, a Falltime Feast, to somehow prophetically relate to Christ's birth which obviously took place during HIS FIRST COMING? Again, it's ludicrous. Anyhow, I've already provided links to previous posts of mine which I believe not only refute this whole "Jesus was born on the Feast of Tabernacles" allegation, but which also provide a very plausible, Biblical date for Christ's birth. Whoever wants to read and consider the same can do so. For those who aren't interested...well, that's fine, too, I suppose...but we always ought to consider what scripture has to say and give it precedence over that which has been foisted upon us by others and which has no scriptural backing to it whatsoever. IOW, there's nothing in scripture which even remotely suggests that Christ was born on December 25th...or on the Feast of Tabernacles, for that matter.
One would come up with a birth around the Passover and Days of Unleavened Bread. This poses a problem, Christ's ministry began at age 30 and continued for 3-1/2 years. This puts His death during the Fall Feast Days (Trumpets, Atonement, Feast of Tabernacles and Last Great Day). Now does anyone want to claim He died on ANY OTHER DATE THAN PASSOVER?
You can't set the rules of this engagement saying certain information is inadmissible, because all information is open to analysis. Based on your arbitrary rule, you assume I've arbitrarily chosen Zechariah's 1st normal week of service when in fact I claim the text chooses the *special* week of service just before that normal week. So no haven't addressed the timing I've selected. And again, I told you I would address the issues I've found in your post in that thread (which you seem awfully eager for people to read for your own pride??).
So based on the chart tell me why Zechariah's overall 2nd week of service - the special week - doesn't qualify as the proper time; why there's no way in the world such could be the case. Based on your proof to the contrary - or lack thereof - we'll go from there.
J
JesusistheChrist
Guest
Actually, it poses no such problem.
As I mentioned in my post which can be read from following the link that I previously provided, I DO BELIEVE that there is great significance to the fact that the underlying Greek word which is translated as "dwelt" in the following portion of scripture...
"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." (John 1:14)
...could rightly be translated as "tabernacled". With such being the case, many have said, "A ha! Christ must have been born on the Feast of Tabernacles!", but such simply isn't the case. What, then, might the significance be of Christ "tabernacling" among us in relation to the actual timing of His birth? Well, as I assume that you're already aware, there was an Old Testament "tabernacle" which God had Moses set up in relation to the pattern of the true tabernacle which is in heaven which God showed Moses while he was up on the mountain and there are also many "types" of Christ contained within the same. With such in mind, does the Bible give us the exact date when said "tabernacle" was set up? Yes, as a matter of fact, it does:
"And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, On the first day of the first month shalt thou set up the tabernacle of the tent of the congregation." (Exodus 40:1-2)
Personally, I believe that this is the actual date when Christ was born or when He began to "tabernacle" among us.
You know what...rather than keep on alluding back to my previous posts from another thread, I think that I'll just cut and paste them here so that people can get a better understanding of what it is that I'm suggesting...
J
JesusistheChrist
Guest
"But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons." (Galatians 4:4-5)
When was Christ actually born and does the Bible actually give us the exact date of His birth? I can assure you, from scripture which I'll begin to cite momentarily (this is only my introduction, as long as it will inevitably be), that Christ was not born in the Winter and I'll also share with you what I believe to be the actual scriptural date of His birth.
As we all know, God assigned specific "feasts" or "rehearsals" to the children of Israel which foreshadowed events which would ultimately later be fulfilled in/by Christ. Let's look briefly at the Springtime feasts:
Leviticus chapter 23
[1] And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
[2] Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.
[3] Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.
[4] These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.
[5] In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD's passover.
[6] And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.
[7] In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.
[8] But ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD seven days: in the seventh day is an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.
[9] And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
[10] Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest:
[11] And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.
[12] And ye shall offer that day when ye wave the sheaf an he lamb without blemish of the first year for a burnt offering unto the LORD.
[13] And the meat offering thereof shall be two tenth deals of fine flour mingled with oil, an offering made by fire unto the LORD for a sweet savour: and the drink offering thereof shall be of wine, the fourth part of an hin.
[14] And ye shall eat neither bread, nor parched corn, nor green ears, until the selfsame day that ye have brought an offering unto your God: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.
[15] And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete:
[16] Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD.
[17] Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave loaves of two tenth deals: they shall be of fine flour; they shall be baken with leaven; they are the firstfruits unto the LORD.
[18] And ye shall offer with the bread seven lambs without blemish of the first year, and one young bullock, and two rams: they shall be for a burnt offering unto the LORD, with their meat offering, and their drink offerings, even an offering made by fire, of sweet savour unto the LORD.
[19] Then ye shall sacrifice one kid of the goats for a sin offering, and two lambs of the first year for a sacrifice of peace offerings.
[20] And the priest shall wave them with the bread of the firstfruits for a wave offering before the LORD, with the two lambs: they shall be holy to the LORD for the priest.
[21] And ye shall proclaim on the selfsame day, that it may be an holy convocation unto you: ye shall do no servile work therein: it shall be a statute for ever in all your dwellings throughout your generations.
Okay.
Here, we have a list of the 4 Springtime feasts or "holy days/holidays" which were actually ordained by the LORD to foreshadow different aspects of Jesus' life/ministry which would ultimately be fulfilled AT HIS FIRST COMING (This is very important, so please keep it in the back of your minds). The 4 Springtime feasts, as I trust that you're all already aware, are as follows:
1. Passover
2. Unleavened Bread
3. Firstfruits
4. Pentecost (or that which occurs "fifty days" after the Feast of Firstfruits)
As we all know, Christ was crucified on the feast of Passover, thereby becoming the True "Passover Lamb" or "the Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world" (John 1:29). In relation to the same, we read:
1Corinthians chapter 5
[1] It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
[2] And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
[3] For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
[4] In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
[5] To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
[6] Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
[7] Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
[8] Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
Seeing how "Christ our passover is sacrificed for us", those of us who have truly partaken of the same ought to now be removing, via the grace of God, all "leaven" from our lives...which dovetails directly into the second Springtime feast, the Feast of Unleavened Bread. As we all know, "leaven" is basically yeast or baking powder/soda or that which when placed within a dough or batter will cause it to rise up. This rising up, figuratively speaking, speaks of pride (which is at the root of all sin) or of that which is sinful and causes us to rise up in rebellion against the Lord our Maker. Anyhow, when we have truly partaken of "Christ our passover", then God fully expects us to begin dealing with all "leaven" or sin in our lives and this is how these two Springtime feasts pertain to us as Christians, yes, even Gentile Christians like the ones whom Paul was actually writing to in his first epistle to the Corinthians that I just cited.
Moving on to the Feast of Firstfruits and its fulfillment, we read:
I Corinthians chapter 15
[19] If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
[20] But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
[21] For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
[22] For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
[23] But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Here, in the midst of his discourse on the resurrection of the dead, Paul twice referred to Christ as "the firstfruits" and this is no happy coincidence. IOW, in perfect fulfillment of the Old Testament "type", Christ was raised from the dead on the literal calendar day which coincided with the Springtime Feast of Firstfruits thereby becoming the "antitype" (no, I didn't say the "antichrist"...lol).
Moving on to the next Springtime feast, the Feast of Pentecost or the feast which occurs "fifty days" after the Feast of Firstfruits, we read:
Acts chapter 1
[1] The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
[2] Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
[3] To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
[4] And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
[5] For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Okay.
Jesus "showed Himself alive after His passion" or after He had risen from the dead on the literal calendar day of the Feast of Firstfruits and He spent "forty days" speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God to His disciples. IOW, we're now "forty days" removed from the Feast of Firstfruits and just ten days shy of the next feast and its fulfillment, again, on its literal calendar day, the Feast of Pentecost. When Jesus told His disciples to "wait for the promise of the Father" and that they would "be baptized with the Holy Ghost NOT MANY DAYS HENCE", He knew exactly how many "not many days hence" He was referring to. He was, in fact, counting ahead another ten days, which His disciples consequently spent in prayer, towards the fulfillment of the required "fifty days" on which the Feast of Pentecost would literally be fulfilled on its literal calendar day. In regard to this, we read:
Acts chapter 2
[1] And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
[2] And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
[3] And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
[4] And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Again, it's no happy coincidence that the Holy Ghost was poured out on the literal Feast of Pentecost or "when the day of Pentecost was fully come" because God originally designated His "holy days" or "holidays" to foreshadow different events which would not only transpire or be fulfilled in the life/ministry of Christ, BUT ALSO IN THEIR PROPER SEASONS. IOW, there is GREAT SIGNIFICANCE in the fact that these four feasts were all SPRINGTIME FEASTS in that they all pertain to things which were fulfilled AT CHRIST'S FIRST COMING.
Hear me out...
Without going into detail at this point in time, what is the first FALLTIME FEAST which has yet to be fulfilled by Christ and won't be fulfilled UNTIL HIS SECOND COMING? Well, as we all should know already, it is the Feast of Trumpets and, again, it's no happy coincidence that we constantly read of a "trumpet" sounding AT CHRIST'S SECOND COMING. IOW, I'm fully convinced and for good, sound scriptural reasons, that Christ will return on the literal calendar day which coincides with a future Feast of Trumpets.
I said all of that to say/ask this...
Seeing how all of the SPRINGTIME FEASTS pointed to or foreshadowed events which would be fulfilled in/by Christ AT HIS FIRST COMING, doesn't it make sense that God would have also foreshadowed HIS BIRTH which most certainly occurred AT HIS FIRST COMING in a SPRINGTIME EVENT OR FEAST, too?
Some people here and many others elsewhere have professed their belief that Christ was born on the Feast of Tabernacles. Their reasoning (and I'm not mocking or deriding them...I've heard and considered this teaching before myself and ultimately rejected it for the reasons of which I'm about to explain) basically goes like this:
"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." (John 1:14)
The underlying Greek word which is here translated as "dwelt" could just as easily or just as rightly be interpreted as "tabernacled". With such being the case and due to the fact that other feasts point to or foreshadow specific events in Christ's life/ministry, many have said, "Aha! Christ was born on the Feast of Tabernacles!"
Well, I'm sorry, but "that dog won't hunt" for several reasons and I'll address just a couple of them now.
First of all, THE TIMING IS ALL WRONG. Again, the SPRINGTIME FEASTS all prophetically pointed to or foreshadowed events which would all be fulfilled in/by Jesus AT HIS FIRST COMING, so why in the world would we be looking to a FALLTIME FEAST for the fulfillment of something which transpired AT CHRIST'S FIRST COMING when the FALLTIME FEASTS point to or foreshadow events which will be fulfilled AT CHRIST'S SECOND COMING? Again, the timing is all wrong...BUT this word "dwelt" or "tabernacled" is of vital importance in regard to determining the actual/factual date of Christ's birth as I believe it is given to us in scripture. More on that in a moment, but first my second objection (and I have more than two) to this whole "Jesus was born on the Feast of Tabernacles" thing. Consider with me, if you will, the following:
"Three times in a year shall all thy males appear before the LORD thy God in the place which he shall choose; in the feast of unleavened bread, and in the feast of weeks, and in the feast of tabernacles: and they shall not appear before the LORD empty:" (Deuteronomy 16:16)
Did you catch that?
There were three different feasts, Passover/Unleavened Bread (they dovetailed together), Pentecost (or the Feast of Weeks or the aforementioned "fifty days") AND THE FEAST OF TABERNACLES which all Israeli males were commanded to keep IN JERUSALEM or "in the place where He (the LORD thy God) shall choose". With such being the case, do you believe that God would go against His Own commandment and have Joseph, an Israeli male, be found IN BETHLEHEM during THE FEAST OF TABERNACLES if Jesus was truly born during this feast? What about some of the other "males" that we read about in the gospel accounts of Christ's birth? Were any of them Israelis (the inn keeper who was possibly/probably a male, the shepherds who were possibly/probably males, etc.)? If so, then why weren't they IN JERUSALEM as opposed to being found IN BETHLEHEM if Christ was truly born on the Feast of Tabernacles? Furthermore, we read the following in relation to the timing of Christ's birth in Luke's gospel account:
Luke chapter 2
[1] And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.
[2] (And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.)
[3] And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city.
[4] And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David
[5] To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child.
[6] And so it was, that, while they were there, the days were accomplished that she should be delivered.
[7] And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.
[8] And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night.
Seeing how Caesar's decree required everyone to return "into his own city" and seeing how such a decree would have caused a lot more Israeli males than just Joseph to depart from Jerusalem, why don't we read of any sort of outburst or uprising amongst Israeli males in that such a decree would have forced them to disobey God's command that they all be in Jerusalem during the Feast of Tabernacles? We read or hear of no such outburst or uprising because Jesus wasn't born on the Feast of Tabernacles.
(Continued in next post due to length)
When was Christ actually born and does the Bible actually give us the exact date of His birth? I can assure you, from scripture which I'll begin to cite momentarily (this is only my introduction, as long as it will inevitably be), that Christ was not born in the Winter and I'll also share with you what I believe to be the actual scriptural date of His birth.
As we all know, God assigned specific "feasts" or "rehearsals" to the children of Israel which foreshadowed events which would ultimately later be fulfilled in/by Christ. Let's look briefly at the Springtime feasts:
Leviticus chapter 23
[1] And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
[2] Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.
[3] Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.
[4] These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.
[5] In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD's passover.
[6] And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.
[7] In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.
[8] But ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD seven days: in the seventh day is an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.
[9] And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
[10] Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest:
[11] And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.
[12] And ye shall offer that day when ye wave the sheaf an he lamb without blemish of the first year for a burnt offering unto the LORD.
[13] And the meat offering thereof shall be two tenth deals of fine flour mingled with oil, an offering made by fire unto the LORD for a sweet savour: and the drink offering thereof shall be of wine, the fourth part of an hin.
[14] And ye shall eat neither bread, nor parched corn, nor green ears, until the selfsame day that ye have brought an offering unto your God: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.
[15] And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete:
[16] Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD.
[17] Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave loaves of two tenth deals: they shall be of fine flour; they shall be baken with leaven; they are the firstfruits unto the LORD.
[18] And ye shall offer with the bread seven lambs without blemish of the first year, and one young bullock, and two rams: they shall be for a burnt offering unto the LORD, with their meat offering, and their drink offerings, even an offering made by fire, of sweet savour unto the LORD.
[19] Then ye shall sacrifice one kid of the goats for a sin offering, and two lambs of the first year for a sacrifice of peace offerings.
[20] And the priest shall wave them with the bread of the firstfruits for a wave offering before the LORD, with the two lambs: they shall be holy to the LORD for the priest.
[21] And ye shall proclaim on the selfsame day, that it may be an holy convocation unto you: ye shall do no servile work therein: it shall be a statute for ever in all your dwellings throughout your generations.
Okay.
Here, we have a list of the 4 Springtime feasts or "holy days/holidays" which were actually ordained by the LORD to foreshadow different aspects of Jesus' life/ministry which would ultimately be fulfilled AT HIS FIRST COMING (This is very important, so please keep it in the back of your minds). The 4 Springtime feasts, as I trust that you're all already aware, are as follows:
1. Passover
2. Unleavened Bread
3. Firstfruits
4. Pentecost (or that which occurs "fifty days" after the Feast of Firstfruits)
As we all know, Christ was crucified on the feast of Passover, thereby becoming the True "Passover Lamb" or "the Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world" (John 1:29). In relation to the same, we read:
1Corinthians chapter 5
[1] It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
[2] And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
[3] For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
[4] In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
[5] To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
[6] Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
[7] Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
[8] Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
Seeing how "Christ our passover is sacrificed for us", those of us who have truly partaken of the same ought to now be removing, via the grace of God, all "leaven" from our lives...which dovetails directly into the second Springtime feast, the Feast of Unleavened Bread. As we all know, "leaven" is basically yeast or baking powder/soda or that which when placed within a dough or batter will cause it to rise up. This rising up, figuratively speaking, speaks of pride (which is at the root of all sin) or of that which is sinful and causes us to rise up in rebellion against the Lord our Maker. Anyhow, when we have truly partaken of "Christ our passover", then God fully expects us to begin dealing with all "leaven" or sin in our lives and this is how these two Springtime feasts pertain to us as Christians, yes, even Gentile Christians like the ones whom Paul was actually writing to in his first epistle to the Corinthians that I just cited.
Moving on to the Feast of Firstfruits and its fulfillment, we read:
I Corinthians chapter 15
[19] If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
[20] But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
[21] For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
[22] For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
[23] But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Here, in the midst of his discourse on the resurrection of the dead, Paul twice referred to Christ as "the firstfruits" and this is no happy coincidence. IOW, in perfect fulfillment of the Old Testament "type", Christ was raised from the dead on the literal calendar day which coincided with the Springtime Feast of Firstfruits thereby becoming the "antitype" (no, I didn't say the "antichrist"...lol).
Moving on to the next Springtime feast, the Feast of Pentecost or the feast which occurs "fifty days" after the Feast of Firstfruits, we read:
Acts chapter 1
[1] The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
[2] Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
[3] To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
[4] And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
[5] For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Okay.
Jesus "showed Himself alive after His passion" or after He had risen from the dead on the literal calendar day of the Feast of Firstfruits and He spent "forty days" speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God to His disciples. IOW, we're now "forty days" removed from the Feast of Firstfruits and just ten days shy of the next feast and its fulfillment, again, on its literal calendar day, the Feast of Pentecost. When Jesus told His disciples to "wait for the promise of the Father" and that they would "be baptized with the Holy Ghost NOT MANY DAYS HENCE", He knew exactly how many "not many days hence" He was referring to. He was, in fact, counting ahead another ten days, which His disciples consequently spent in prayer, towards the fulfillment of the required "fifty days" on which the Feast of Pentecost would literally be fulfilled on its literal calendar day. In regard to this, we read:
Acts chapter 2
[1] And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
[2] And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
[3] And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
[4] And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Again, it's no happy coincidence that the Holy Ghost was poured out on the literal Feast of Pentecost or "when the day of Pentecost was fully come" because God originally designated His "holy days" or "holidays" to foreshadow different events which would not only transpire or be fulfilled in the life/ministry of Christ, BUT ALSO IN THEIR PROPER SEASONS. IOW, there is GREAT SIGNIFICANCE in the fact that these four feasts were all SPRINGTIME FEASTS in that they all pertain to things which were fulfilled AT CHRIST'S FIRST COMING.
Hear me out...
Without going into detail at this point in time, what is the first FALLTIME FEAST which has yet to be fulfilled by Christ and won't be fulfilled UNTIL HIS SECOND COMING? Well, as we all should know already, it is the Feast of Trumpets and, again, it's no happy coincidence that we constantly read of a "trumpet" sounding AT CHRIST'S SECOND COMING. IOW, I'm fully convinced and for good, sound scriptural reasons, that Christ will return on the literal calendar day which coincides with a future Feast of Trumpets.
I said all of that to say/ask this...
Seeing how all of the SPRINGTIME FEASTS pointed to or foreshadowed events which would be fulfilled in/by Christ AT HIS FIRST COMING, doesn't it make sense that God would have also foreshadowed HIS BIRTH which most certainly occurred AT HIS FIRST COMING in a SPRINGTIME EVENT OR FEAST, too?
Some people here and many others elsewhere have professed their belief that Christ was born on the Feast of Tabernacles. Their reasoning (and I'm not mocking or deriding them...I've heard and considered this teaching before myself and ultimately rejected it for the reasons of which I'm about to explain) basically goes like this:
"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." (John 1:14)
The underlying Greek word which is here translated as "dwelt" could just as easily or just as rightly be interpreted as "tabernacled". With such being the case and due to the fact that other feasts point to or foreshadow specific events in Christ's life/ministry, many have said, "Aha! Christ was born on the Feast of Tabernacles!"
Well, I'm sorry, but "that dog won't hunt" for several reasons and I'll address just a couple of them now.
First of all, THE TIMING IS ALL WRONG. Again, the SPRINGTIME FEASTS all prophetically pointed to or foreshadowed events which would all be fulfilled in/by Jesus AT HIS FIRST COMING, so why in the world would we be looking to a FALLTIME FEAST for the fulfillment of something which transpired AT CHRIST'S FIRST COMING when the FALLTIME FEASTS point to or foreshadow events which will be fulfilled AT CHRIST'S SECOND COMING? Again, the timing is all wrong...BUT this word "dwelt" or "tabernacled" is of vital importance in regard to determining the actual/factual date of Christ's birth as I believe it is given to us in scripture. More on that in a moment, but first my second objection (and I have more than two) to this whole "Jesus was born on the Feast of Tabernacles" thing. Consider with me, if you will, the following:
"Three times in a year shall all thy males appear before the LORD thy God in the place which he shall choose; in the feast of unleavened bread, and in the feast of weeks, and in the feast of tabernacles: and they shall not appear before the LORD empty:" (Deuteronomy 16:16)
Did you catch that?
There were three different feasts, Passover/Unleavened Bread (they dovetailed together), Pentecost (or the Feast of Weeks or the aforementioned "fifty days") AND THE FEAST OF TABERNACLES which all Israeli males were commanded to keep IN JERUSALEM or "in the place where He (the LORD thy God) shall choose". With such being the case, do you believe that God would go against His Own commandment and have Joseph, an Israeli male, be found IN BETHLEHEM during THE FEAST OF TABERNACLES if Jesus was truly born during this feast? What about some of the other "males" that we read about in the gospel accounts of Christ's birth? Were any of them Israelis (the inn keeper who was possibly/probably a male, the shepherds who were possibly/probably males, etc.)? If so, then why weren't they IN JERUSALEM as opposed to being found IN BETHLEHEM if Christ was truly born on the Feast of Tabernacles? Furthermore, we read the following in relation to the timing of Christ's birth in Luke's gospel account:
Luke chapter 2
[1] And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.
[2] (And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.)
[3] And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city.
[4] And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David
[5] To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child.
[6] And so it was, that, while they were there, the days were accomplished that she should be delivered.
[7] And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.
[8] And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night.
Seeing how Caesar's decree required everyone to return "into his own city" and seeing how such a decree would have caused a lot more Israeli males than just Joseph to depart from Jerusalem, why don't we read of any sort of outburst or uprising amongst Israeli males in that such a decree would have forced them to disobey God's command that they all be in Jerusalem during the Feast of Tabernacles? We read or hear of no such outburst or uprising because Jesus wasn't born on the Feast of Tabernacles.
(Continued in next post due to length)
J
JesusistheChrist
Guest
(Continued from previous post due to length)
Here's what I believe and here's what I believe that scripture actually teaches...
God deliberately ordained certain SPRINGTIME FEASTS OR EVENTS to foreshadow events which would ultimately be fulfilled AT CHRIST'S FIRST COMING AND CHRIST'S BIRTH IS NO EXCEPTION TO THIS BIBLICAL RULE. If I'm correct, then is there a specific event or date which is given us in the Old Testament "types" which would perfectly foreshadow the actual date of Christ's birth? Yes, I fully believe that there is and I'll now begin to show what exact date I believe that to be. Here's our first clue or our first "type":
Exodus chapter 12
[1] And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt, saying,
[2] This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you.
[3] Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house:
[4] And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbour next unto his house take it according to the number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make your count for the lamb.
[5] Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:
[6] And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.
Here, the LORD speaks unto Moses and Aaron while they're still in the land of Egypt or just prior to the exodus and He tells them that "this month", which is the month of Abib...
"This day came ye out in the month Abib." (Exodus 13:4)
..."shall be unto you THE BEGINNING of months: it shall be THE FIRST month of the year to you."
That's interesting, isn't it? I mean, why did God designate this month as THE BEGINNING of months and THE FIRST month and where do we see such terminology as "THE BEGINNING" and "THE FIRST" being used elsewhere in scripture and in relation to Whom? Well, Jesus is "the beginning" and "the first", isn't He? Yes, He most certainly is. Here's where it gets really interesting. As most, if not all, of you are probably already aware, there is much about the Old Testament "tabernacle" (there's that word again) which prophetically points to Christ. With such in mind, please carefully/prayerfully consider the following with me:
Exodus chapter 40
[1] And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
[2] On the first day of the first month shalt thou set up the tabernacle of the tent of the congregation.
On the first day of the first month, in accordance with God's command, Moses set up THE TABERNACLE. Again, God had previously ordained this month to be THE BEGINNING of months and/or THE FIRST month. Is it possible/plausible that God deliberately ordained such things to show us the exact date of Christ's birth or the exact date when Christ began to "tabernacle among us" (John 1:14)? The timing certainly fits, doesn't it? I mean, if we were going to look for a SPRINGTIME DATE which foreshadowed Christ's birth, then I believe that such a date would have to occur BEFORE the Feast of Passover or BEFORE the other SPRINGTIME FEASTS would be fulfilled in/by Christ. IOW, Christ was obviously born BEFORE He was sacrificed as the Passover Lamb, so it stands to reason (in my mind, anyway) that any date which foreshadowed His birth would PRECEDE the Feast of Passover. Well, seeing how the Feast of Passover occurs on the fourteenth day of THE FIRST month, that would only leave us thirteen days, from the first of this month until the thirteenth of this month, to find such a date and I believe that we have such a date before us.
Again, why did God suddenly designate the month of Abib as THE BEGINNING of months and/or THE FIRST month?
Again, why did God command Moses to set up the TABERNACLE on THE FIRST day of THE FIRST month?
Is this just all happy coincidence?
After the TABERNACLE was set up on THE FIRST day of THE FIRST month, we read:
"Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle. And Moses was not able to enter into the tent of the congregation, because the cloud abode thereon, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle." (Exodus 40:34-35)
Now, compare this TABERNACLE which was "filled with the glory of the LORD" to the following "glory filled TABERNACLE of the LORD":
"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." (John 1:14)
To me, the similarities are more than striking.
Well, like I said, that's just an introduction. IOW, there are other variables in scripture which all equally point to a SPRINGTIME birth of Christ (the time of year when lambs were born, the time of year when shepherds would have been in the field by night with their flocks, etc., etc.).
Thanks for reading/considering.
Here's what I believe and here's what I believe that scripture actually teaches...
God deliberately ordained certain SPRINGTIME FEASTS OR EVENTS to foreshadow events which would ultimately be fulfilled AT CHRIST'S FIRST COMING AND CHRIST'S BIRTH IS NO EXCEPTION TO THIS BIBLICAL RULE. If I'm correct, then is there a specific event or date which is given us in the Old Testament "types" which would perfectly foreshadow the actual date of Christ's birth? Yes, I fully believe that there is and I'll now begin to show what exact date I believe that to be. Here's our first clue or our first "type":
Exodus chapter 12
[1] And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt, saying,
[2] This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you.
[3] Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house:
[4] And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbour next unto his house take it according to the number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make your count for the lamb.
[5] Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:
[6] And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.
Here, the LORD speaks unto Moses and Aaron while they're still in the land of Egypt or just prior to the exodus and He tells them that "this month", which is the month of Abib...
"This day came ye out in the month Abib." (Exodus 13:4)
..."shall be unto you THE BEGINNING of months: it shall be THE FIRST month of the year to you."
That's interesting, isn't it? I mean, why did God designate this month as THE BEGINNING of months and THE FIRST month and where do we see such terminology as "THE BEGINNING" and "THE FIRST" being used elsewhere in scripture and in relation to Whom? Well, Jesus is "the beginning" and "the first", isn't He? Yes, He most certainly is. Here's where it gets really interesting. As most, if not all, of you are probably already aware, there is much about the Old Testament "tabernacle" (there's that word again) which prophetically points to Christ. With such in mind, please carefully/prayerfully consider the following with me:
Exodus chapter 40
[1] And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
[2] On the first day of the first month shalt thou set up the tabernacle of the tent of the congregation.
On the first day of the first month, in accordance with God's command, Moses set up THE TABERNACLE. Again, God had previously ordained this month to be THE BEGINNING of months and/or THE FIRST month. Is it possible/plausible that God deliberately ordained such things to show us the exact date of Christ's birth or the exact date when Christ began to "tabernacle among us" (John 1:14)? The timing certainly fits, doesn't it? I mean, if we were going to look for a SPRINGTIME DATE which foreshadowed Christ's birth, then I believe that such a date would have to occur BEFORE the Feast of Passover or BEFORE the other SPRINGTIME FEASTS would be fulfilled in/by Christ. IOW, Christ was obviously born BEFORE He was sacrificed as the Passover Lamb, so it stands to reason (in my mind, anyway) that any date which foreshadowed His birth would PRECEDE the Feast of Passover. Well, seeing how the Feast of Passover occurs on the fourteenth day of THE FIRST month, that would only leave us thirteen days, from the first of this month until the thirteenth of this month, to find such a date and I believe that we have such a date before us.
Again, why did God suddenly designate the month of Abib as THE BEGINNING of months and/or THE FIRST month?
Again, why did God command Moses to set up the TABERNACLE on THE FIRST day of THE FIRST month?
Is this just all happy coincidence?
After the TABERNACLE was set up on THE FIRST day of THE FIRST month, we read:
"Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle. And Moses was not able to enter into the tent of the congregation, because the cloud abode thereon, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle." (Exodus 40:34-35)
Now, compare this TABERNACLE which was "filled with the glory of the LORD" to the following "glory filled TABERNACLE of the LORD":
"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." (John 1:14)
To me, the similarities are more than striking.
Well, like I said, that's just an introduction. IOW, there are other variables in scripture which all equally point to a SPRINGTIME birth of Christ (the time of year when lambs were born, the time of year when shepherds would have been in the field by night with their flocks, etc., etc.).
Thanks for reading/considering.
J
JesusistheChrist
Guest
So now you're falsely accusing me of "pride"?
Too funny (actually, it's pitiful and childish)...especially when one considers that YOU also provided a link to a previous post of your own.
Anyhow, you obviously misunderstood what I put in parentheses and why. What I was getting at, in accordance to the chart which YOU provided, what happens if/when you calculate from Zacharias' serving DURING THE 32ND WEEK FORWARD? Well, then your alleged Falltime birth of Jesus Christ becomes a Springtime birth of Jesus Christ and the same perfectly coincides with all other information that is available to us.
J
JesusistheChrist
Guest
Hi, john832.
I'm sorry, but I failed to initially recognize the full scope of what you were saying and that is why I only addressed one aspect of what you were saying in my initial response to you. IOW, I see no problem in relation to Christ being born around the Feast of Passover in that I strongly consider that He was born only 13 days BEFORE Passover for some of the reasons which I've already outlined. Now that I fully recognize what you are suggesting, I do have a problem with the same. IOW, it seems as if you're suggesting that Jesus' ministry began on the actual date of His birth and then you're calculating from that date forward 3 1/2 years (which is what many people believe to be the timeframe of His public ministry) and then coming up with a Falltime death as opposed to Him actually dying on Passover. My question for you would simply be this:
Where, in scripture, does it say or even suggest that Christ's public ministry (His baptism by John at around age 30) began on the actual date of His birth?
Thanks.
You addressed *my* post sir. In this thread. You challenged *my* information (which you're free to do...I welcome it). There was never a problem with your link (go back to my first response to you). But you keep referring to your posts there when I said I would get to them (as I keep my word). And now you've posted the exact same set of posts from that thread into this thread because you weren't patient enough for me or others to follow the link and read it. Meanwhile, I'm trying to keep to the rules of this place as in "no reposts/spamming". You seem quick to antagonize, showing a lack of Proverbs 3:7 counsel right now. Maybe it's my age as compared to yours that you have a problem with. Regardless, words are spirit. And yours is potently clear to me.
Placing a parenthetical statement apart from the actual statement is not a misunderstanding on the part of the reader but an error on the part of the writer if he/she meant otherwise. You said Zech's FIRST (typed in caps) < Parenthetical btw lol..."Zech's FIRST (Not counting the times when all orders of priests served simultaneously)". However I *am* claiming one of the times when all orders of priests served. So again, counter-proof please of *my* timing.
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I have NEVER said that His public ministry began on His actual birth date exactly, please read my posts, I am saying around the time of His birth date.
Luk 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
When one begins to be age thirty, he is not 30-1/2 or 30-3/4 years old, he is about 30 years old.
So if His public ministry began when He began to be 30, it would be around the fall of the year of 27 AD. Add 3-1/2 years and we come to spring of 31AD. We do know for a fact that He was crucified on the Passover (the equivalent Gregorian date of April 25, 31AD).