Does Acts 2:38 mean we have to be baptized to get into Heaven? -Debate

[kennethcadwell]

So I think you see that what Paul wrote was not written in the gospel but we can see the same Spirit of truth at work...

It may not be the same words that he uses, but still has the same meaning.
There is no change in meaning between what Paul was preaching, and what the Lord Jesus already preached. Just a difference in wording.

Just like you and me, if we each wrote an article on the same event we witnessed. The wording that both of us would use would be different, yet the meaning and the event will still be the same.
In the same since that at times saved, salvation, eternal life, and crown of life are all used for the same meaning and outcome.
And also eternal punishment, death, lake of fire, cut off, disqualified are all some of the words used to explain the outcome of willful sin.

Paul changed his wording a lot determining to who he was talking to at the time using things in that area that people were accustomed to so that they would understand what he was saying when it came to salvation and how to receive it. It did not change the meaning, just because he used different words.

 

[jeff_peacemkr]

not even the priests and teachers and scholars were helped by those. (not even the Apostle Paul).
like Jesus says, and John the greatest man born among women,
that didn't / don't cut it. only the Father in heaven can reveal the truth, not flesh and blood.
or again "not by power, nor by might, but by My Spirit sayeth Yhvh Elohim".


p.s. though, many who went to some kind of school, said it was a miracle that they did not lose their faith there, and only by grace in Jesus that they were able to resist the evil teachings in schools.
others have testified that it was in religious schools that they lost their faith, and haven't regained it as of the time of their testimony.

Yeah I'm sorry I'm just using three different study Bibles (KJV, NKJV, NIV) and I'm only using two commentaries and a systematic theology book to study this.

 

[Jabberjaw]

Where is verse 37? It is needed for context. Acts 8:37 (KJV)
[SUP]37 [/SUP] And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

That's what saves.

LOl He didn't think that needed to be there... These guys have added stuff and changed words and now they are taking scriptures out...but they all claim to uphold "thou shalt not bear false witness" I think we can see how well those who make their boast in the law really do?

Mitspa, you claim to be the Greek scholar, you should know this,

Yes, the great confession is required, it can also be affirmed here :

Romans 10:9-10 (NKJV) [SUP]9 [/SUP] that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. [SUP]10 [/SUP] For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

but some here (and some perverted versions like the NIV) leave Acts 8:37 out putting it in a foot note, the Eunuch asked a question that would demand an answer and verse 37 is the answer, and the verse belongs in scripture, not in a foot note.

 

[Jabberjaw]

Yeah I'm sorry I'm just using three different study Bibles (KJV, NKJV, NIV) and I'm only using two commentaries and a systematic theology book to study this.

So why are you having a problem understanding?

 

[elf3]

I addressed 2:38, Acts 3:19 used the word "converted", there are 8 conversions in the book of Acts, they all were water baptized including your Acts 10:43, you just need to read down a little further :

Acts 10:47-48 (NKJV) [SUP]47 [/SUP] "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" [SUP]48 [/SUP] And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.

Why would Peter tell these to be water baptized if they were already baptized? because the Holy Spirit baptism is not the baptism of Eph 4:5, but water baptism is and is done by the disciples :

Matthew 28:19-20 (NKJV) [SUP]19 [/SUP] Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, [SUP]20 [/SUP] teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.

Peter was commissioned to "baptize" in water.

As a public display of faith in Christ. Not for salvation.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Mitspa, you claim to be the Greek scholar, you should know this,

Yes, the great confession is required, it can also be affirmed here :

Romans 10:9-10 (NKJV) [SUP]9 [/SUP] that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. [SUP]10 [/SUP] For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

but some here (and some perverted versions like the NIV) leave Acts 8:37 out putting it in a foot note, the Eunuch asked a question that would demand an answer and verse 37 is the answer, and the verse belongs in scripture, not in a foot note.

And right there in Romans 10 is another teaching of Paul that is the same that the Lord Jesus taught.....


[h=1]Matthew 10:32-33[/h]32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

 

[Jabberjaw]

As a public display of faith in Christ. Not for salvation.

Now what scripture did you find that in? can't seem to find it? it must come from your man made doctrine.

 

[kennethcadwell]

As a public display of faith in Christ. Not for salvation.

You do know that the Lord Jesus commanded baptism? ( Matthew 28:19, Mark 16:16 )

Then you know that the Lord said if you love Him you will keep His commandments? ( John 14:15,23 )

Then you also know that those who don't obey to do His commands are called disobedient, and disobedience is classified as sin of unbelief? ( Hebrews 3:18-19 )

 

[Jabberjaw]

And right there in Romans 10 is another teaching of Paul that is the same that the Lord Jesus taught.....


Matthew 10:32-33

32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Yes, for them to claim Paul preached another gospel than the Jewish Apostles goes completely against what Paul taught.

Galatians 1:8-9 (NKJV) [SUP]8 [/SUP] But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. [SUP]9 [/SUP] As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

Seems even back then it had to be repeated over and over.

They attempt to use Paul saying "we know in part" and "Prophecy in part" and use it to try and say things like Peter didn't know everything on the day of Pentecost to fit their man made doctrine... absurd...

 

[elf3]

I addressed 2:38, Acts 3:19 used the word "converted", there are 8 conversions in the book of Acts, they all were water baptized including your Acts 10:43, you just need to read down a little further :

Acts 10:47-48 (NKJV) [SUP]47 [/SUP] "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" [SUP]48 [/SUP] And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.

Why would Peter tell these to be water baptized if they were already baptized? because the Holy Spirit baptism is not the baptism of Eph 4:5, but water baptism is and is done by the disciples :

Matthew 28:19-20 (NKJV) [SUP]19 [/SUP] Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, [SUP]20 [/SUP] teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.

Peter was commissioned to "baptize" in water.

In Acts 2, Peter preached Jesus, in Acts 8 Philip preached Jesus starting with Isaiah :

Acts 8:32-33 (NKJV) [SUP]32 [/SUP] The place in the Scripture which he read was this: "He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; And as a lamb before its shearer is silent, So He opened not His mouth. [SUP]33 [/SUP] In His humiliation His justice was taken away, And who will declare His generation? For His life is taken from the earth."

This was the prophecy of Christ, Philip preached Jesus :

Acts 8:35 (NKJV) Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him.

Preaching Jesus includes preaching water baptism, else why would the Eunuch know to say the following:

Acts 8:36 (NKJV) Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, "See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?"

Now did this Eunuch rejoice before or after he was water baptized?

Acts 8:39 (NKJV) Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing.

He rejoiced after he was water baptized, not after he believed.

Preaching Jesus (just like on Pentecost) is preaching water baptism.

Here is the thing. Peter didn't preach baptism to them but they wanted to show their faith in Jesus by being baptized. Peter preached salvation or remission of sins by faith not baptism. That's the difference.

 

[kennethcadwell]

• cts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
  Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added to them about three thousand souls.
  Acts 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
  Acts 9:18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight immediately, and arose, and was baptized.
  Acts 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but you shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
  Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John truly baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying to the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
  Acts 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
  Acts 22:16 And now why tarry you? arise, and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
  Romans 6:3 Know you not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
  Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
  1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
  Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
  Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
  1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism does also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

 

[Jabberjaw]

Here is the thing. Peter didn't preach baptism to them but they wanted to show their faith in Jesus by being baptized. Peter preached salvation or remission of sins by faith not baptism. That's the difference.

Peter, like Philip and every other apostle including Paul preached Jesus, preaching Jesus is preaching water baptism, go back and study the conversion of the Eunuch and how Philip preached Jesus (Acts 8 which included water baptism).

 

[VioletReigns]

Wow... all these harsh commands and stipulations and shouts of "Disobedience!!" How come I never hear the voice of the Holy Spirit thrashing me about with these burdensome regulations?

Man alive, who in the world would be that brazen to demand that people do more than what Jesus did on the Cross for our salvation?! God forbid! Isn't it out of the love in your heart for Christ Jesus and the gratefulness for what He has done for you that you would want to proclaim publicly your alliance with Him?

If anyone here is harboring any personal pride about doing something worthy of salvation (including baptism), I pray you humble yourself to God and get rid of that attitude. Nobody on this planet can do anything to gain salvation. It is through the Cross of Christ alone.

 

[Jabberjaw]

Wow... all these harsh commands and stipulations and shouts of "Disobedience!!" How come I never hear the voice of the Holy Spirit thrashing me about with these burdensome regulations?

Man alive, who in the world would be that brazen to demand that people do more than what Jesus did on the Cross for our salvation?! God forbid! Isn't it out of the love in your heart for Christ Jesus and the gratefulness for what He has done for you that you would want to proclaim publicly your alliance with Him?

If anyone here is harboring any personal pride about doing something worthy of salvation (including baptism), I pray you humble yourself to God and get rid of that attitude. Nobody on this planet can do anything to gain salvation. It is through the Cross of Christ alone.

The cross was for nothing if you refuse to read and obey what is actually in the bible and not man made doctrine.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

What is the "gold standard" when a question arises?

Jesus Christ said this...

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Context, please. John 3:4-7 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Nicodemus asked a fair question, concerning natural birth. That birth is the flesh birth. Of course every man must be birthed naturally, but also birthed in the Spirit to enter the kingdom. Nic, did ya get it?

Where does it say being water baptized = born again?
Acts 8:37 (KJV)
[SUP]37 [/SUP] And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Right then the man was born again, having heard the gospel from Philip. Then is was suitable for him to be baptized in water, but the washing of the water of the blood of Jesus had already happened sitting in that chariot.

I've never see anyone doing that then being immediately water baptized. Many churches have a baptistry to fill up and warm the water. Pastors of many denominations go over the essentials with the candidates, put them on the list. When several are ready it is done. It might be a month away, so the folks are assured it's OK to die between now and then, you are saved. I was baptized a third time while putting our boat on the trailer, in the icy John Day River in Oregon just as the ice was breaking up, a little church congregation at the boat launch ramp. "You born again, been baptized in water?" I replied "Yes, Sir" "Well, come on in anyway, you'll never forget this one."

 

[kennethcadwell]

Wow... all these harsh commands and stipulations and shouts of "Disobedience!!" How come I never hear the voice of the Holy Spirit thrashing me about with these burdensome regulations?

Man alive, who in the world would be that brazen to demand that people do more than what Jesus did on the Cross for our salvation?! God forbid! Isn't it out of the love in your heart for Christ Jesus and the gratefulness for what He has done for you that you would want to proclaim publicly your alliance with Him?

If anyone here is harboring any personal pride about doing something worthy of salvation (including baptism), I pray you humble yourself to God and get rid of that attitude. Nobody on this planet can do anything to gain salvation. It is through the Cross of Christ alone.

The debate stems because some say they don't need to use water in baptism, and others of us still say water is a part of baptism. Not one scripture from even the OT all the way through the NT books omit water from baptism.

I try not to be rude in what I say, but the bible does say over and over again how obedience is important for salvation. That obedience is done out of love for Him, but there are some that still say we don't need it or does not apply. Yet the bible clearly say in the words of our Lord that to be a believer in Him is to be a hearer and a doer, keeping and following His commands and teachings.
Then the bible goes to say that those who don't keep and follow His commandments are disobedient, and the bible classifies disobedience as sin of unbelief.

 

[Kaycie]

When we stand before God what does He see that is covering us? If we have truly accepted Christ and we truly have the saving faith in Christ, God will see one thing covering us. The blood of Christ. God won't be looking for water He will be looking for blood.

Now yes I do believe that Christians should be baptized as a public sign of their faith but it's not water that saves us but blood.

But baptism is how we come in contact with His blood.

 

[elf3]

You do know that the Lord Jesus commanded baptism? ( Matthew 28:19, Mark 16:16 )

Then you know that the Lord said if you love Him you will keep His commandments? ( John 14:15,23 )

Then you also know that those who don't obey to do His commands are called disobedient, and disobedience is classified as sin of unbelief? ( Hebrews 3:18-19 )

First of all I never once said "do not get baptized". My only point is that baptism is not "necessary for salvation or remission of sins." It is not a command unto salvation is my only point but yinz read into what I say, other things.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Context, please. John 3:4-7 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Nicodemus asked a fair question, concerning natural birth. That birth is the flesh birth. Of course every man must be birthed naturally, but also birthed in the Spirit to enter the kingdom. Nic, did ya get it?

Where does it say being water baptized = born again?
Acts 8:37 (KJV)
[SUP]37 [/SUP] And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Right then the man was born again, having heard the gospel from Philip. Then is was suitable for him to be baptized in water, but the washing of the water of the blood of Jesus had already happened sitting in that chariot.

I've never see anyone doing that then being immediately water baptized. Many churches have a baptistry to fill up and warm the water. Pastors of many denominations go over the essentials with the candidates, put them on the list. When several are ready it is done. It might be a month away, so the folks are assured it's OK to die between now and then, you are saved. I was baptized a third time while putting our boat on the trailer, in the icy John Day River in Oregon just as the ice was breaking up, a little church congregation at the boat launch ramp. "You born again, been baptized in water?" I replied "Yes, Sir" "Well, come on in anyway, you'll never forget this one."

This has been debated and handled by biblical scholars for years now, and only a few still stand with the born again by water and spirit as the water part being natural birth.
A lot have gone away from that philosophy because Jesus tells Nicodemus about the born again saying you are a teacher of the law and do not understand.

John 3:10
Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things?

So by this we can see that the water is not being naturally born, and by what Paul showed we are buried and reborn through water and the spirit of baptism.

Romans 6:3 Know you not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

 

[elf3]

Now what scripture did you find that in? can't seem to find it? it must come from your man made doctrine.

No its what we see when we do a proper study of the Bible. Unlike you where you read into the bible that baptism is necessary for salvation.