The doctrine I don't want to believe-eternal fire
- Thread starter Blain
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
I get it. I said that the Greek can have different meanings as a defense of ECT. But the fact of the matter is that I believe you are ignoring:
#1. God's love (and not being able to explain it in light of ECT).
#2. Scriptures that talks about destruction of the wicked and giving immortality to the saints.
#3. The KJV was not written in Modern English and that it has influenced other later translations.
Side Note:
I still believe the KJV to be the perfect divinely inspired preserved Word of God for our world today (In a long line of other perfect Words in different languages). For the word "ever" could be used as talking about an "age" back in the 1600's. Then again, if you didn't live during the 1600's, then you would have no reason to easily accept it.
#1. God's love (and not being able to explain it in light of ECT).
#2. Scriptures that talks about destruction of the wicked and giving immortality to the saints.
#3. The KJV was not written in Modern English and that it has influenced other later translations.
Side Note:
I still believe the KJV to be the perfect divinely inspired preserved Word of God for our world today (In a long line of other perfect Words in different languages). For the word "ever" could be used as talking about an "age" back in the 1600's. Then again, if you didn't live during the 1600's, then you would have no reason to easily accept it.
Hell, is the grave. Gehenna is the place of fire. Gehenna is will not burn forever, Jeremiah prophesied that Gehenna will one day be made holy to the Lord.
38 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the city shall be built to the LORD from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner. 39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath. 40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever. (Jer 31:1 KJV)
38 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the city shall be built to the LORD from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner. 39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath. 40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever. (Jer 31:1 KJV)
Here is a site that gives a basic understanding of the concept of "owlam"
Hebrew Word Meanings
As can be seen, there is a misunderstanding of the English term forever.
Hebrew Word Meanings
As can be seen, there is a misunderstanding of the English term forever.
No, that is Paul talking God's truth.
Oh, but it does in many places.
First of all, there are the Sfriptures presented[post=1818330]here[/ppost].
And then there is Paul.
Paul says that death is to be absent from the body (2Co 5:7), not absence from existence;
and to be home with the Lord (2Co 5:7), not in oblivion (2Co 5:6-8).
"as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. . .I would prefer
to be away from the body and at home with the Lord." (2Co 5:6-8)
He says "to live is Christ and to die is gain." (Php 1:21)
He says "I desire to depart and be with Christ which is better by far, but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body." (Php 1:23-24)
Paul's statements would be absurd if his spirit were not immortal and living with Christ after his death.
And there is Jesus.
He who believes in me will live, though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. (Jn 11:26)
"If anyone keeps my word, he will never see death." (Jn 8:51)
And we know that Jesus was not contradicting the sentence of physical death on all mankind in the garden.
Jesus also said God "is not God of the dead but of the living,
and that Scripture says in Ex 3:6 "I am (present tense) the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." (Lk 20:37-38)
Therefore, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are still living, or there would be no Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to be (am) God of.
And again, we know that Jesus was not contradicting the sentence of physical death on all mankind in the garden.
I remind you of what Jesus said to the Sadducees at this time:
"You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God." (Mt 22:29)
Oh, but it does in many places.
First of all, there are the Sfriptures presented[post=1818330]here[/ppost].
And then there is Paul.
Paul says that death is to be absent from the body (2Co 5:7), not absence from existence;
and to be home with the Lord (2Co 5:7), not in oblivion (2Co 5:6-8).
"as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. . .I would prefer
to be away from the body and at home with the Lord." (2Co 5:6-8)
He says "to live is Christ and to die is gain." (Php 1:21)
He says "I desire to depart and be with Christ which is better by far, but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body." (Php 1:23-24)
Paul's statements would be absurd if his spirit were not immortal and living with Christ after his death.
And there is Jesus.
He who believes in me will live, though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. (Jn 11:26)
"If anyone keeps my word, he will never see death." (Jn 8:51)
And we know that Jesus was not contradicting the sentence of physical death on all mankind in the garden.
Jesus also said God "is not God of the dead but of the living,
and that Scripture says in Ex 3:6 "I am (present tense) the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." (Lk 20:37-38)
Therefore, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are still living, or there would be no Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to be (am) God of.
And again, we know that Jesus was not contradicting the sentence of physical death on all mankind in the garden.
I remind you of what Jesus said to the Sadducees at this time:
"You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God." (Mt 22:29)
Last edited:
I respect you Jason, that is why I am responding, because I know this debate will eventually just go in loops.
I apologize if I cover something you may have stated, but it's hard to cross reference your notes,--you cover so much.
I also do not want to destroy Blain's thread.
Most of these debates aren't simply backed by just scripture, but by one's interpretation of scripture.
Where does that lead? For instance, if I were to use the same exact scripture you use in your defense, to back my case---I would just say that Jesus is actually saying "this" or "that".
.....see?, my interpretation. What is the point of that?
You use certain scripture to back your case, but somehow leave out other key verses that actually validate my side. The Bible flows perfectly, so any statement/opinion made on an issue, can and should be backed by the multiple verses throughout the books. If one wants to stand firm on their stance, they have to present any and all scripture on the subject being discussed.
Jesus never contradicted Himself, so if we personally question what He means in one verse, we are not allowed to just fill in the blanks, or explain it away with human logic,... we are to look elsewhere in the Bible to clear up any confusion we may have with it. It is there somewhere.
Hell? For ever?
And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, (2 Thessalonians. 1:9).
Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire,.. (Jude 7)
These men are those who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted; [SUP]13[/SUP] wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever," (Jude 12-13)
And His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. (Matt. 3:12 says, see also Luke 3:17).
And if your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire." (Mark 9:43)
Let's get technical: the word "unquenchable" is asbestos in the Greek. Right? We now can go from there?
See?.... so now it then goes back to what you believe the word "unquenchable" personally means?
Presenting my verses now become useless....you see those key words a certain way? How can this debate be solved then?
I'm not here to convince you, because none of these debates really ever have that outcome.
There is so much more to this than just scripture brother..........or debating.......or proving I'm right.
It's something deeper that can only be handled between the believer and God.
I have to add brother, I greatly dislike numbered and bullet point type presentations- they have a "now listen up closely class" type feel to them, not to mention a bit of a overall angry tone to it. So please, I understand your passion, but I'm not your student. Show me the same respect I have always shown you here in public and in PM.
I apologize if I cover something you may have stated, but it's hard to cross reference your notes,--you cover so much.
I also do not want to destroy Blain's thread.
Most of these debates aren't simply backed by just scripture, but by one's interpretation of scripture.
Where does that lead? For instance, if I were to use the same exact scripture you use in your defense, to back my case---I would just say that Jesus is actually saying "this" or "that".
.....see?, my interpretation. What is the point of that?
You use certain scripture to back your case, but somehow leave out other key verses that actually validate my side. The Bible flows perfectly, so any statement/opinion made on an issue, can and should be backed by the multiple verses throughout the books. If one wants to stand firm on their stance, they have to present any and all scripture on the subject being discussed.
Jesus never contradicted Himself, so if we personally question what He means in one verse, we are not allowed to just fill in the blanks, or explain it away with human logic,... we are to look elsewhere in the Bible to clear up any confusion we may have with it. It is there somewhere.
Hell? For ever?
And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, (2 Thessalonians. 1:9).
Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire,.. (Jude 7)
These men are those who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted; [SUP]13[/SUP] wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever," (Jude 12-13)
And His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. (Matt. 3:12 says, see also Luke 3:17).
And if your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire." (Mark 9:43)
Let's get technical: the word "unquenchable" is asbestos in the Greek. Right? We now can go from there?
See?.... so now it then goes back to what you believe the word "unquenchable" personally means?
Presenting my verses now become useless....you see those key words a certain way? How can this debate be solved then?
I'm not here to convince you, because none of these debates really ever have that outcome.
There is so much more to this than just scripture brother..........or debating.......or proving I'm right.
It's something deeper that can only be handled between the believer and God.
I have to add brother, I greatly dislike numbered and bullet point type presentations- they have a "now listen up closely class" type feel to them, not to mention a bit of a overall angry tone to it. So please, I understand your passion, but I'm not your student. Show me the same respect I have always shown you here in public and in PM.
Last edited:
The text does not state "completely."
"Destroy" (Gr: apollumi) does not mean annihilation or loss of being, as seen in its usage in Mt 7:13;
Lk 13:3, 5, Jn 3:16, 10:28, 17:12; Ro 2:12, 9:22; 1Co 15:18, 2Co 2:15, 4:3; Php 1:28, 3:19;
2Th 2:3, 10; 1Tim 6:9; Heb 10:39; Jas 4:12; 2Pe 2:3, 3:7, 9, 16.
Other Biblical teaching of immortality of the human spirit is presented here and here.
"Destroy" (Gr: apollumi) does not mean annihilation or loss of being, as seen in its usage in Mt 7:13;
Lk 13:3, 5, Jn 3:16, 10:28, 17:12; Ro 2:12, 9:22; 1Co 15:18, 2Co 2:15, 4:3; Php 1:28, 3:19;
2Th 2:3, 10; 1Tim 6:9; Heb 10:39; Jas 4:12; 2Pe 2:3, 3:7, 9, 16.
Other Biblical teaching of immortality of the human spirit is presented here and here.
The idea of ETC is based on the idea that man is immortal. This however is not the case. The Scriptures teach us that the Father alone is immortal. Therefore, if man was to suffer ECT, God would have to keep him alive for eternity. However, eternal life is the gift promised to the believer, not the unbeliever. The Scriptures state plainly that the wicked will die. Even Jesus said, God sent His Son that whoever believes on Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. The comparison in Scripture is between death or perishing and eternal life. It's not between eternal life and eternal torment. There are a few passages in the New Testament that are used to support the idea of ECT, however, as I've pointed out owlam and aionios are wrongly translated forever or eternity. It is this wrong translation that give existence to this idea of ECT.
Here are just a few of the passages that speak of the destiny of the wicked.
28 For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off. (Psa 37:28 KJV)
34 Wait on the LORD, and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it. (Psa 37:34 KJV)
20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away. (Psa 37:20 KJV)
The wicked shall perish.
Here are just a few of the passages that speak of the destiny of the wicked.
28 For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off. (Psa 37:28 KJV)
34 Wait on the LORD, and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it. (Psa 37:34 KJV)
20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away. (Psa 37:20 KJV)
The wicked shall perish.
Last edited:
I have addressed the meaning of the Greek appolumi ("destroyed"), which does not mean annihilation or loss of being, here,
and have presented the abundant Biblical teaching on immortality of the human spirit here and here.
Yes, their natural bodies died, but not their spirits, as is seen in the Biblical teaching I have linked above.
and have presented the abundant Biblical teaching on immortality of the human spirit here and here.
Yes, their natural bodies died, but not their spirits, as is seen in the Biblical teaching I have linked above.
Yes, in 1Co 15 Paul is discussing the kind of body we will have at the resurrection.
We will put on immortality of the body at the resurrection.
We will put on immortality of the body at the resurrection.
Last edited:
What this verse means, especially today for this age, is that for all the richness and pomp of Sodom, if they had what we had today and a prophet came along and told them we can ELIMINATE poverty, homelessness, and inequality THEY WOULD HAVE REPENTED! Their punishment or grave sentence is less severe meaning that Christ has risen. They are no longer there, but WE GO WHEN WE DON'T HAVE TO!
They're covered too! Any name given a man to be called will be destroyed! Your bible states that every creature's earnest expectation (genuine belief) is in the manifestation of the sons of God. That means there are no "atheists!" They just don't believe in the nonsense organized religion puts out about what God is.
Seem to me Sodom is lesser punishment than Capernaum.
[SUP]23[/SUP] And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
[SUP]24[/SUP]But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.
[SUP]23[/SUP] And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
[SUP]24[/SUP]But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.
That is my opinion why brother Kenneth believe there is level of punishment in hell. I am not sure either brother.
I never think about it before. But yes some verse look like indicate there is level punishment in the hell. Though a lot of verse said hell is eternity.
So level of punishment did not mean not eternity.
I never think about it before. But yes some verse look like indicate there is level punishment in the hell. Though a lot of verse said hell is eternity.
So level of punishment did not mean not eternity.
Just remember that death is death. There is no degrees or levels of lifelessness. Plus do not neglect the sufferings we're going through now. And again I state that if we're dying and going to the grave with knowledge and belief of a risen savior, then WE are receiving the greater punishment! Those on the other side of Christ have been risen with Him such as Sodom or Capernaum.