When does the rapture occur?

PlainWord · Dec 22, 2014

Yes, you are correct. The 6th seal contains the Wrath of the Lamb. The seals do what? They keep the scroll closed so you can't read what's inside. Once the seals are removed then you can read more details inside. The Seals provide a shortened version, or highlight, of what's inside.

The Great Tribulation is the 4th Seal. More details about it can be found in the trumpets. Divine wrath is found in the 6th seal and more details about this wrath are found in the Bowls/Vials.

Kerry · Dec 22, 2014

It happens tomorrow are you ready or are you still trying to justify yourself?

PlainWord · Dec 22, 2014

Hizikyah said:

You are on the right track!! But, see my last post. Seals seal the scroll so you can't see what's written inside until the seals are removed. The main thrust of Revelation is about Daniel's 4th Beast Kingdom, the most terrible the world has ever seen. John refers to it as the 7th Beast Kingdom which is the same as Daniel's 4th. The Great Tribulation is found in the 4th Seal.

We see the rise of ISLAM in Seal 1 + 2. We see the wealth of the Saudi Oil Kings in Seal 3 while their people live in poverty. We see the Great Tribulation in Seal 4. In Seal 5 all the dead martyrs from the Tribulation are crying out for vengeance. They are told to wait until the rest of their fellow believers are killed. This mirrors the Great Multitude found in Heaven in Rev 7. Then we come to Seal 6 which is the gathering to Armageddon. This coincides with Trumpet 6 and Bowl 6 where the Lord lays waste to 1/3 of the world who have come up against Israel. 7-7-7 is the return of Christ.

PlainWord · Dec 22, 2014

Kerry said:

I am ready but as a Watcher I also know that it isn't coming tomorrow. Paul tells us clearly that the Falling Away and the Man of Sin comes first. This has to happen first. We also know that MECCA will be destroyed first. MECCA is of course Mystery Babylon.

Let me ask you this. If Satan comes on a cloud claiming to be Christ and if he sends out his demon army claiming to be Christ's army come to rapture you off to heaven, do you go with those angels/demons??? Assume that they are very convincing and you really think these angels are here to take you to the Rapture. Do you go? Paul tells us that Satan uses "UNRIGHTEOUS DECEPTION" so expect something really BIG and convincing.

Remember the story of Gideon? God prefers to use a small band of faithful to do miracles against great odds so that He gets the glory. If Satan is able to fool the vast majority of Christians into a false Rapture then you would have a falling away and then the Man of Sin would be very convincing when he claims to be God to the unbelieving and spiritually uneducated.

Chopper · Dec 22, 2014

PlainWord said:

I am ready but as a Watcher I also know that it isn't coming tomorrow. Paul tells us clearly that the Falling Away and the Man of Sin comes first. This has to happen first. We also know that MECCA will be destroyed first. MECCA is of course Mystery Babylon.

Let me ask you this. If Satan comes on a cloud claiming to be Christ and if he sends out his demon army claiming to be Christ's army come to rapture you off to heaven, do you go with those angels/demons??? Assume that they are very convincing and you really think these angels are here to take you to the Rapture. Do you go? Paul tells us that Satan uses "UNRIGHTEOUS DECEPTION" so expect something really BIG and convincing.

Remember the story of Gideon? God prefers to use a small band of faithful to do miracles against great odds so that He gets the glory. If Satan is able to fool the vast majority of Christians into a false Rapture then you would have a falling away and then the Man of Sin would be very convincing when he claims to be God to the unbelieving and spiritually uneducated.

From what I understand, the devil will not be allowed to make an appearance identical to our Messiah, as appearing in the sky with a shout and trumpet or a multitude of angels.

ELECT · Dec 22, 2014

Chopper said:

he does make fire come down from heaven though through his agents

Hoffco · Dec 22, 2014

The seals are world history and church history from John's day,the author's day' to the time of the end when the rapture, the 6th seal, happens and then the following wrath of God, which is the second 3.5 yrs. of the 70th wk. of Dan. The 7th seal opens up the Wrath of God for the last 3.5 yrs of this present age of Tribulation. In the Rapture of the Main body of the Church, of all ages, is, Thus, raptured "AFTER" the 2,000 yrs plus, "after" the tribulation of 2,000 yrs of Church age, of which John, the author, said he was a partaker of ,Rev.1:9. The 144,000 Jews are saved after the rapture,and are killed in Jacob's troubl, and raised when Jesus returns to rule the earth. . Love to all, Hoffco

TKICBS · Dec 23, 2014

Wow. Sorry but I gave IP reading this thread way back there. I won't answer any specific questions but I will attempt to prove the placement of the rapture. The word Rapture is not in scripture but this word means to be wrapped up and taken away 1st cor. 15:51... tells us that we will be changed (to be like Jesus) It is a rapture. Thess tells us we will be caught up. So no argument there. Now I don't know if it has been said yet but there are scriptures that point to the end of this age such as all scriptures addressing the trumpets. Last, great and 7th all occur at the same time. However the "we are not destined to wrath" and "I will keep you from the hour of temptation" don't seem to agree so seem contrary. So I am sure the answer is simple and can be proved. The answer is "there are 2 raptures"
Don't stone me. Look at 2:2 thess again. Verse 3 tells us the gathering is after the wicked one is revealed while verse 7,8 tell us he who let's is taken out of the way before the wicked is revealed. Hmmmm
Answer: 2 raptures
The 1st is the last great seventh trumpet after the asteroid in Mat 24; after the 2 witnesses get raptured and there is a great earthquake. This one cannot be argued without twisting the word.
The 2nd is found in Rev 12. The child. This child can only be part of the believers. Think about it. Of all the Christians you know how many would go if the rapture happened today. How many are caught up in the ways of the world. Fornication, idolatry, witchcraft, liars, thieves......
Those who do such things will by no means inherit the kingdom of heaven.
Look at rev 12. This cannot be Jesus because there was no beast with 10 horns and 7 heads in 78 A.D. and there is no record of his mother going into a wilderness for 1260 days. Rev 2 tells us those who overcome Jezebel receive a rod to rule the nations.
If, as most believe, the woman (singular) is Israel or the church then reason says the child is not one but many. Notice they overcome by the blood of the lamb and the word of there testimony. And verse 12 tells us the rest of her seed have the testimony of Jesus. This is the spirit of prophecy.
Here is what I see.
The ENPI was renewed for 7 years on January 1, 2014. Perhaps Daniels covenant.
ISIS could and very likely is the king of the north from Daniel 11. Arms rise up on his part (they do it for him) and set up the abomination. (around mid 2017)
The child gets caught up. There is great tribulation in Israel as the Psalms 83 army surrounds them. The 7 headed dragon sets itself up in the temple or on the mount???
There is only a short great tribulation. The 7 yr doctrine is false. Prove it. This is what we are called to do.
Turkey will become the little horn. He is the one who sets up the abomination for the king of the north.
Sometime around 2020 the asteroid will hit. This opens the pit to release abbadon.
1335 days after the abomination is set up the woman, (by this time most Christians who missed the child have repented and become a powerhouse. They come out of the wilderness after the asteroid, 1260 days. Abbadon is here for 5 months but has no power over her. The rapture is the blessed day of Daniel 12.
Can anyone see this? All scripture is balanced.

Hoffco · Dec 23, 2014

I see Egypt as the "king of the South" and Turkey as "the king of the North." But the situation is not right for the treaty to have been 'reaffirmed yet. Israel will build her temple, and have control of the temple mount. Something VERY bad will happen to the Arabs, for them to give the temple mount back to Israel. Israel has to be strong enough to regain control of the temple mount. OR, The muslins may ,by accident, blow up their own Dome of the rock. They loose their power, somehow, and need 7 yrs. to regroup. AND;OR , Israel uses their power to defeat them ,royally. Then, after 3.5yrs, the Rapture will occur; after the sacrifices are set up and then the sun goes dark and the moon goes red, and the stars fall , then the SIGN of the SON of man is seen, that is the time of the rapture. Love Hoffco

ChristIsGod · Dec 23, 2014

PlainWord said:

These words or voices are not from God's mouth but from finally scared men that are beginning to believe that this is that which was written about or that they knew about through the bible ....

Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

It's not declaring from God's mouth that this seal is the wrath but the events that had just taken place with this seal had finally put the fear these world leaders cry out.

These events surely would scare them into their hiding places ...

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

The vials are the wrath for several reasons - the main being that those under the altar were told to wait until the rest of us were killed as they were and the 7th seal brings on the 7 trumpets - in that order and the 7th trumpet is spoken about in Rev 10 & 11 -- that is when He rewards His Saints and pours out His wrath and then vials come out - in that order - with no overlapping of the seals, trumpets and vials if read slowly and watching the conjunctions at the beginning of each verse. Though the chapters bounce around a bit in describing scenes in Heaven as well - the 7th Seal brings out the 7 Trumpets and the 7th Trumpet brings out the 7 vials - and we're raised to be with Him at the 7th trump or "last trump" as Paul wrote.

ChristIsGod · Dec 23, 2014

Rev 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
Rev 8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

ChristIsGod · Dec 23, 2014

Jesus likened it to "labor pains" ... they start off slow, not that close together but I believe that when those that survive are raised at the 7th/last trump that the vials will be poured out rather quickly - baboom-baboom.

And then God laughs and we'll be with Him when He does - I suspect that we'll be laughing with Him.

Psalms 1 and 2 and 37.

What else you guys were saying about a fake coming ... It's very possible through holographic & other available technology and that would be a sad day for all of those that are thinking that He didn't tell us "when" he's coming when He Did.

It's on page 59 of this thread. Rev 11 then skip to 14.

ChristIsGod · Dec 23, 2014

Don't mind me saying this but I thought maybe I should.

If you take 3 pieces of paper and on one, write from the Revelation all that happens with each Seal.
Then on another paper, write what happens with each Trumpet.
And on the thrid sheet, write all that happens during the Vials.

Then try to line them up to find if any of those things repeat themselves. I think you'll find that they don't - not exactly as described in the Book and that's another reason why I believe they're all separate.

GOD BLESS!!!

PlainWord · Dec 23, 2014

Chopper said:

Do you have a passage to support your understanding? Actually, I don't think he comes exactly the same way Jesus comes either, but he does use miracles and he does announce in some way that he is here and Jesus warns us in Mat 24 to NOT GO OUT when they tell us he is here.

PlainWord · Dec 23, 2014

Hoffco said:

I think the King of the South is Saudi Arabia aligned with Egypt and others friendly to the west. Mystery Babylon is clearly MECCA and will be destroyed by the King of the North. The Man of Sin elevates himself above all called GOD including ISLAM and ALLAH. He advances a foreign god, one that his fathers did not know. ALLAH was the god his fathers knew.

I believe the terror attacks on Israel which have been growing more and more in recent months will reach the point where the Jews will have enough of it and just obliterate the enemies within their border. Terrorists are going around and randomly shooting Rabbis, stabbing women at malls, driving cars into crowds, etc. Enough will be enough. The Jews will wipe out Hamas in Gaza and basically expel the Arabs on the Temple Mount. They will announce plans to rebuild the temple and this will prompt the peace treaty.

But then again, the above is speculation. Nothing tells us that the Man of Sin appears in a third Jewish temple. He could appear in St. Peter's Basilica for all we know.

PlainWord · Dec 23, 2014

True, but if you compare the preceding verses (Rev 6:12-14) to Mat 24:29-30 you see that they match thus the Lord is getting ready to return here. Massive earthquakes and sky rolling back as a scroll could be a description of a polar shift.

Oh, they are scared alright but not because of the events (possible polar shift) but because they know Christ is coming. They correctly identify this and they know they are in big trouble. Why do they know this? Because they have been killing Christians and Jews (God's People) in droves and they have been living wickedly. Compare the description of those above:

1. Kings of the earth
2. Rich men
3. Chief captains
4. Mighty men
5. Bond men
6. Free men

in the 6th seal to those in Rev 19:18.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, freeand slave, both small and great.”

1. Kings
2. Captains
3. Mighty Men
4. Slave
5. Free Men
6. All people

You see the same. These are those who experience the Wrath of the Lamb when He returns. Where does slavery still exist in the world today? Some of the places are in Africa, Saudi Arabia, Iran, India and China. If you study the 3rd seal and once you understand that MECCA is Mystery Babylon and that the world's great False Religion is ISLAM, and you recognize that the Saudis lead the world in sex slavery, you quickly understand that it is this region that the wrath comes.

Elin · Dec 23, 2014

BradC said:

Corrrect.

And the rapture cannot happen at any time, if that means now,

because the apostasy (rebellion, falling away) and the revealing of the man of lawlessness must come first (2Th 2:1, 3).

"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him. . .that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed." (2Th 2:1, 3)

The man of lawlessness will rise out of the great rebellion (apostasy) and intensify it (vv. 9-10).

However, since the rapture cannot happen at any time if that means now, the rapture is not imminent.

NB: That NT teaching locates the rapture at the end of time and the final judgment is shown in the OP here.

PlainWord · Dec 23, 2014

Elin said:

CORRECT!! The Rapture is on the LAST DAY of this old earth. It is at this point that all living must be translated and all dead must be resurrected because the old earth will pass away thus everyone must be off the planet, dead and living alike so that the old earth can be destroyed and all the works within it. We then have the judgment and the wicked are condemned and the righteous enter the new heaven.

The second death is spiritual death. All humans will be in spiritual indestructible bodies and either go to everlasting torment or everlasting peace in heaven.

Elin, I think you and I agree on most things except for the existence of a Christ-only Millennial reign which precedes this "last day." I can see and understand your view actually, but I do believe that the evidence is stronger for a millennial reign than without one.

1 Thes 4:14 clearly identifies the Father as the one coming thus this passage differs from 2 Thes 2 since Paul there is discussing Christ's return. So, the question is to they come at relatively the same time or separated by a period of time such as 1,000 years?

Elin · Dec 23, 2014

PlainWord said:

Yes, PlainWord, you are absolutely right, we are in agreement on most things. . .and that is way too much agreement for this forum.

So let me torment you with something else.

What is the meaning of "Messiah" and the "Messianic Kingdom"?

Well, Messiah = "Anointed One, the ruler (king) who was to come."
Christ = "Anointed One, the ruler (king) who was to come."
So Messiah/Christ is really about ruling and reigning (as king) in his kingdom.

"Messiah" is used only twice in the OT, in two consecutive verses of the book of Daniel.
"Christ" is used about 300 times in the NT to refer to the "Anointed One, the ruler (king) who was to come," as having come in Jesus of Nazareth, so the "Messiah to come" was to the Gentiles as well as the Jews.

According to the prophet Daniel (Da 2:31-45), the Messiah/Christ, "Anointed One, the ruler (king) who was to come,"
set up his kingdom during the Roman empire, at his first coming. And according to the Messiah ruler/king at that time,
it was not an earthly kingdom of this world (Jn 18:36), but invisible (Lk 17:20), set up within the hearts of men (Lk 17:21).
It is in their hearts that he rules and is king of those who believe in him, which hearts are his kingdom.
Since, according to the prophet Daniel, this temporal kingdom set up at his first coming endures forever (Da 2:44),
that would mean there will be no second temporal kingdom (nor do the NT Jewish writers anywhere mention such in NT authoritative teaching).

KEY: While the Jews believed the Messiah would come exclusivly to them, we learn in Paul's letter to Ephesian Gentiles that before the foundations of the world (Eph 1:4) the Gentiles, to whom his letter is addressed, were made people of God.
Even before the beginning of time, the Messiah ruler/king was to rule and reign in the hearts (his kingdom--Lk 17:21) of those who believe in him, both Jews and Gentiles, his one people in Christ (Eph 2:15).

This spiritual kingdom (Lk 17:21) in the hearts of both Jews and Gentiles, God's one people (Eph 2:15) is that most precious treasure (segullah, Ex 19:5; Dt 7:6; Mal 3:17) closest to God's heart
(Zep 3:17), his own personal inheritance (Dt 9:29, 32:9; 1Kgs 8:51, 53; Ps 28:9, 33:12; Eph 1:18),
which gives him more glory than any physical earthly kingdom ever could.

This is the Messianic kingdom. . .in the hearts (Lk 17:21) of Jews and Gentiles now, his one people, which he ransomed/purchased back from the justice of God
(Mt 20:28; 1Co 6:20; 1Tim 2:6; 1Pe 1:18-19), in order that he would have a kingdom, in the hearts (Lk 17:21) of his one people now.

This is the Messianic kingdom (Lk 17:21) of which he is the Messiah ruler/king now.
A future physical earthly kingdom would be anti-climatic
(and which Jewish NT writers nowhere mention in NT authoritative teaching).

The "next" kingdom would be the moving at his second coming, of this everlasting Messianic kingdom (Da 2:44), in the hearts (Lk 17:21) of his one people now, into eternity--the new heavens and new earth, the home of righteousness (2Pe 3:13), where there is no death (Rev 21:1-4).

And in that next everlasting Messianic kingdom, we will see fulfilled all the symbolic and glorious unfulfilled prophecies regarding the eternal state of the now-temporal Messianic kingdom in the hearts (Lk 17:21) of his one people, which is the one kingdom of the Messiah ruler/king.

So again, we see the marvelous unity of God's divine plan in Jesus Christ, to unite Jews and Gentiles (Eph 2:15) into one people of God, in the one Messianic kingdom (Lk 17:21) of both time and eternity, in and under his one Christ ruler/king.

God is about uniting his one people in Christ, not about dividing into two peoples, two kingdoms, two revelations, two futures, etc.

PlainWord · Dec 23, 2014

Elin,

It is nice to find a fellow Christian who studies the Word of God and isn't afraid to share what they learn and believe even if it goes against the grain of the majority.

You definitely make some excellent points relative to the Kingdom of Christ being in each of His believer's hearts, etc. Further, my idea that Christ comes and reigns for 1,000 years or so before God "blows up" the planet has some issues. Such as, there appears to be a conflict in Daniel 7 whereas the Saints are being overcome until the Ancient of Days (God the Father) returns and issues a judgment in favor of the Saints. This passage seems to conflict with a return of Christ prior to this.

However, Mat 24 describes a literal return of Christ. Further Isaiah discusses the "government being upon His shoulders." Is this a spiritual or literal government? I get it if it's spiritual and dealing with Believers. However, we are also told that He reigns with a "rod of iron" and in Zechariah 14 we see that those in disobedience do not receive rain. This appears to be literal as spiritual beings do not require rain or food.

Anyway, I will look again at all the passages you cite to gain a better understanding of the foundation of your views and to challenge my own. We all should constantly study and learn and be open to casting aside long held beliefs and traditions if they are found inconsistent with the Word - such as the Pre-Trib Rapture Utter Nonsense.

When does the rapture occur?

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