Just Curious About Baptism.

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oldhermit said:
I have never understood this about you DC. You always feel that a logical argument will somehow overturn the language of the text. I asked you a question that you did not answer. Where does Paul say that we come into contact with the blood? Is it in his death or in his life?
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I did answer....by faith........

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation THROUGH FAITH IN HIS BLOOD, to declare HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS for the REMISSIONS OF SINS that are past, through the FORBEARANCE of GOD. To declare, I say, at this time HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS: that he might be just and the JUSTIFIER of him which BELIEVETH in JESUS.
 
dcontroversal said:
...The water of John 3 is directed at a fleshly birth
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Lets have a look at John 3...

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
[5] Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


If the water here means amniotic fluid (as you attest), then this would have Jesus saying to Nicodemus (something as follows)...


Nicodemus, you must be born of your mothers womb, so as to grow up and live out your life, so as to one day stand here before me, that I may now say to you this earth shaking revelation, "You must be born of your mothers womb."


Again...

Nicodemus, you must be breathing oxygen so as to live, that one day you may stand here before me, that I may say to you this thing which is difficult to understand, "You must breath oxygen to live."


It looks like you are attesting to some ridiculous statements that one would say to the religious leader of that day.


Clearly, we find in Romans, the sum of the meaning:
Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
[4] Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
[5] For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:


Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized[SUP]G907[/SUP] into Christ have put on Christ.


Thayer’s Greek Definitions:

G907
baptizō

1) to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)
2) to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one’s self, bathe
3) to overwhelm



Lets look at other scriptures regarding water baptism with G907...


Matthew 3:6 And were baptized[SUP]G907[/SUP] of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

Matthew 3:13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized[SUP]G907[/SUP] of him.

Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized[SUP]G907[/SUP], went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:





God bless!
 
oldhermit said:
I have never understood this about you DC. You always feel that a logical argument will somehow overturn the language of the text. I asked you a question that you did not answer. Where does Paul say that we come into contact with the blood? Is it in his death or in his life?
Click to expand...

I will also add that hid death, shed blood and burial would mean NOTHING without his RESURRECTION and that is what IMMERSION POINTS to...a BELIEF and testimony of his RESURRECTION from the dead! Romans 6:3-6 KEY WORD LIKENESS!
 
dcontroversal said:
I will also add that hid death, shed blood and burial would mean NOTHING without his RESURRECTION and that is what IMMERSION POINTS to...a BELIEF and testimony of his RESURRECTION from the dead! Romans 6:3-6 KEY WORD LIKENESS!
Click to expand...

Yes. That is what I am looking for. So Jesus death is the only place one can come into contact with the blood of Christ. Now, how does Paul say we come int contact with his death?
 
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endtimes said:
Lets have a look at John 3...

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
[5] Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


If the water here means amniotic fluid (as you attest), then this would have Jesus saying to Nicodemus (something as follows)...


Nicodemus, you must be born of your mothers womb, so as to grow up and live out your life, so as to one day stand here before me, that I may now say to you this earth shaking revelation, "You must be born of your mothers womb."


Again...

Nicodemus, you must be breathing oxygen so as to live, that one day you may stand here before me, that I may say to you this thing which is difficult to understand, "You must breath oxygen to live."


It looks like you are attesting to some ridiculous statements that one would say to the religious leader of that day.


Clearly, we find in Romans, the sum of the meaning:
Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
[4] Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
[5] For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:


Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized[SUP]G907[/SUP] into Christ have put on Christ.


Thayer’s Greek Definitions:

G907
baptizō

1) to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)
2) to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one’s self, bathe
3) to overwhelm



Lets look at other scriptures regarding water baptism with G907...


Matthew 3:6 And were baptized[SUP]G907[/SUP] of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

Matthew 3:13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized[SUP]G907[/SUP] of him.

Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized[SUP]G907[/SUP], went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:





God bless!
Click to expand...

Your view is flawed by belief into immersion as a way of salvation...Jesus EXPLAINS IT AND VERSE 6 tells us exactly what Jesus was talking about....

Verse 5...BORN of water and the SPIRIT
Verse 6...FLESH is flesh and SPIRIT is SPIRIT

Except a man be born into this world and then be born of the spirit HE CANNOT enter the KINGDOM OF GOD

Rather simple when a view is not tainted by baptismal regeneration
 
Viligant_Warrior said:
If we are saved by faith, then we are saved by faith when we believe and not when we get baptized, otherwise, we are not saved by faith. Furthermore, if baptism is necessary for salvation, then anyone who receives Christ on his deathbed in a hospital and who also believes Jesus is God in the flesh, who died and rose from the dead for his sins, etc., would go to hell if he doesn't get baptized before he died.
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first ..we are saved by grace through faith....does the scripture say he who believes and is baptised shall be saved...devils believe ...do they obey God by repenting and being baptised?....if one were to just believe Jesus is God in the flesh and his sins are forgiven...then the devils will have forgiveness of sins too.....because they believe...and tremble....do you know why they tremble? it is because they know it is true....
we are justified by faith...you believe we are justified by faith without works....but faith without works is dead....
This would mean that we were not justified by faith, because if we were, then the person would be saved. Also, if baptism is necessary for salvation, then all babies who die go to hell since they weren't baptized, regardless of whether we accept there is an "age of responsibility" at which our innocence in ignorance is lost. Remember, when someone says that baptism is necessary, there can be no exceptions -- otherwise it isn't necessary.
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And it isn't.
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and what of it...God will have mercy on who He will have mercy.....did he not command Saul to kill all the Amalakites including babies...did he not destroy Sodom and Gomorrah...including babies...you cannot box God in a corner...
baptism is in Peter's first sermon after receiving the HS...I doubt he would make a mistake that soon...
Click to expand...
 
oldhermit said:
Yes. That is what I am looking for. So Jesus death is the only place one can come into contact with the blood of Christ. Now, how does Paul say we come int contact with his death?
Click to expand...

Look the truth is simple.....we can discuss this till the cows come home and you will not persuade me that baptism is a part of salvation and I will not persuade you that it is only the picture of salvation and public testimony of belief into his resurrection....

Too many verses teach salvation by faith, grace, hope, mercy without water connected....two sets of verses teach that baptism is a FIGURE, A PICTURE, A LIKENESS and when all evidences are combined the picture is all to clear....

It is the first act of obedience, it is the public testimony of faith into the resurrection it is a type, a picture, a figure of what has already taken place and that is where I will stand...no amount of persuasion will change my mind...baptism does not facilitate, add to, keep you or help anyone get saved...It is the picture of salvation that is by faith dia grace......
 
dcontroversal said:
Look the truth is simple.....we can discuss this till the cows come home and you will not persuade me that baptism is a part of salvation and I will not persuade you that it is only the picture of salvation and public testimony of belief into his resurrection....

Too many verses teach salvation by faith, grace, hope, mercy without water connected....two sets of verses teach that baptism is a FIGURE, A PICTURE, A LIKENESS and when all evidences are combined the picture is all to clear....

It is the first act of obedience, it is the public testimony of faith into the resurrection it is a type, a picture, a figure of what has already taken place and that is where I will stand...no amount of persuasion will change my mind...baptism does not facilitate, add to, keep you or help anyone get saved...It is the picture of salvation that is by faith dia grace......
Click to expand...

Well, you are right about one thing; I do not believe there is any chance of either of us changing our position on this.
 
dcontroversal said:
Your view is flawed by belief into immersion as a way of salvation...Jesus EXPLAINS IT AND VERSE 6 tells us exactly what Jesus was talking about....

Verse 5...BORN of water and the SPIRIT
Verse 6...FLESH is flesh and SPIRIT is SPIRIT

Except a man be born into this world and then be born of the spirit HE CANNOT enter the KINGDOM OF GOD

Rather simple when a view is not tainted by baptismal regeneration
Click to expand...

you are forcing words into scripture...born into this world and then be .......you have really done it this time...


 
Well OP... ask a simple question and get a simple answer. You will be receiving a Certificate of Complete Understanding within 6-8 weeks. Please enclose a "Faith Seed" in the amount of .....
 
Anonimous said:
Well OP... ask a simple question and get a simple answer. You will be receiving a Certificate of Complete Understanding within 6-8 weeks. Please enclose a "Faith Seed" in the amount of .....
Click to expand...

LOL. Yea, I noticed in the OP she did not wish this to turn into a debate but I do not think this particular subject can ever be introduced as a thread without inviting debate because there are simply to many opinions on this topic and the feeling are rooted too deeply.
 
elf3 said:
Many people use the the thief as an example and many say he died under the Old Covenant. But also think of this...Jesus died before the thief thus immediately bringing the New Covenant into affect. So the thief actually died under the New Covenant.
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did they not have to wait until the day of pentecost?....for the HS who brought the NT into effect....
 
newbirth said:
you are forcing words into scripture...born into this world and then be .......you have really done it this time...
Click to expand...

The text is clear...reject t if you choose as you have consistently proven your inability to make logically deduced comclusions based upon the text.....

The two verses together paint a perfect picture and it is obvious by the answer of Jesus in verse 6 as to what he is saying in verse 5......so....not going to argue with you bro..........!
 
Anonimous said:
Well OP... ask a simple question and get a simple answer. You will be receiving a Certificate of Complete Understanding within 6-8 weeks. Please enclose a "Faith Seed" in the amount of .....
Click to expand...
Lol...even though what has transpired on this thread, and in so short a period of time, is no laughing matter. Quite frankly, it's a crying shame. I mean, a young believer asks a sincere question...and then is forced to watch a living version of "Rock'em Sock'em Robots". Seriously, people, how the hell are some of you possibly helping the OP?
 
Baptism is more than a symbol. It allows the Holy Spirit to work in our hearts, minds, and wills in a new way, and it leads us to a higher level as in the tabernacle when certain stages were passed to eventually pass into the Holy of Holies. There is salvation by the blood of Jesus, then water baptism, then baptism or being truly immersed in the Holy Spirit. A changed life is the key. You will know them by their fruits, not their tongues, which is not to say that every believer doesn't have access to this wonderful gift so God can pray through them about things they have no earthly knowledge of. Mark 16:16 says baptism is an important step in the process of salvation. Those who believe AND ARE BAPTIZED will be saved.
 
Viligant_Warrior said:
That's good, but I don't know that it's relevant. God's promise -- and Jesus is God -- is not dependent on circumstances. He told him, "Today you will be with Me in Paradise" and that is exactly what He meant. If He intended baptism to be required for salvation, He would have either said so, or specifically negated it as a necessity for the thief's eternal destiny.
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He intends...
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

[SUP]16 [/SUP]He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
 
dcontroversal said:
The text is clear...reject t if you choose as you have consistently proven your inability to make logically deduced comclusions based upon the text.....

The two verses together paint a perfect picture and it is obvious by the answer of Jesus in verse 6 as to what he is saying in verse 5......so....not going to argue with you bro..........!
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you cannot ...you will have to argue with scripture....which you now resort to putting in your own words...the difference between us is you follow a doctrine of man before you follow Christ...I follow Christ
 
dcontroversal said:
Your view is flawed by belief into immersion as a way of salvation...Jesus EXPLAINS IT AND VERSE 6 tells us exactly what Jesus was talking about....

Verse 5...BORN of water and the SPIRIT
Verse 6...FLESH is flesh and SPIRIT is SPIRIT

Except a man be born into this world and then be born of the spirit HE CANNOT enter the KINGDOM OF GOD

Rather simple when a view is not tainted by baptismal regeneration
Click to expand...


Actually your view is in fatal error, because it is not "I" that says this, but GOD! Jesus said ...

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
[5] Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


It is about what does saith Jesus (not me). However, you dont seem to have a problem with scriptures, so long as YOU REWRITE THEM. Here is thus saith DC...

"Except a man be born into this world and then be born of the spirit HE CANNOT enter the KINGDOM OF GOD"


Now compare to thus saith Jesus...
"Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."



God bless!
 
dcontroversal said:
Look the truth is simple.....we can discuss this till the cows come home and you will not persuade me that baptism is a part of salvation and I will not persuade you that it is only the picture of salvation and public testimony of belief into his resurrection....

Too many verses teach salvation by faith, grace, hope, mercy without water connected....two sets of verses teach that baptism is a FIGURE, A PICTURE, A LIKENESS and when all evidences are combined the picture is all to clear....

It is the first act of obedience, it is the public testimony of faith into the resurrection it is a type, a picture, a figure of what has already taken place and that is where I will stand...no amount of persuasion will change my mind...baptism does not facilitate, add to, keep you or help anyone get saved...It is the picture of salvation that is by faith dia grace......
Click to expand...

let me ask you a few questions...
1)the Holy Spirit did it did it descend upon Jesus after he was baptised or was it in him all along?...

2)was Jesus baptism to fulfil an act of righteousness?

3)Do you not accept baptism as the death of your flesh and the resurrection of a new spiritual man in Christ with the gift of the HS that God promised ?

4) is Christ the first born of many brethren? how are these brethren born?
 
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