THE GREAT DEBATE...LAW AND GRACE

[Ric]

No works can save you(make you right)
No grace happens without an inward change.
Which change corresponds to outward change.
What debate?
Unless you are saying you can:
A). save yourself by your own works
or
B). that you can willfully engage in sin and still be saved
there is no debate.

It's called sanctification, and its a work of the Holy Spirit (I Cor. 1:30)

 

[Kerry]

I think I like you Ric.

 

[Mitspa]

No works can save you(make you right)
No grace happens without an inward change.
Which change corresponds to outward change.
What debate?
Unless you are saying you can:
A). save yourself by your own works
or
B). that you can willfully engage in sin and still be saved
there is no debate.

It's called sanctification, and its a work of the Holy Spirit (I Cor. 1:30)

Well of course anyone who claims that we are under the law of Moses are in effect teaching works to justify. And again this has been the debate from the beginning of the Church and even from the beginning of man when Cain tried to offer God a sacrifice of his labors in the ground God had cursed (law) and Able offer the Lamb by faith...Cain works where not accepted but Ables works where righteous....

 

[newbirth]

Well of course anyone who claims that we are under the law of Moses are in effect teaching works to justify. And again this has been the debate from the beginning of the Church and even from the beginning of man when Cain tried to offer God a sacrifice of his labors in the ground God had cursed (law) and Able offer the Lamb by faith...Cain works where not accepted but Ables works where righteous....

can you point out anyone on CC who claims we are under the law...??we are not saved by works of the law...but by grace through faith... and faith without works is dead....in this we must conclude that there must be works of the law and works of faith....since we are under grace by which we are saved through faith...and faith without works is dead...it is evident that in order to be saved by grace through faith your faith must have works...

both Cain and Abel would have known about sacrificing blood to God for the atonement for sins...it has nothing to do with the ground being cursed...but what is required by God......Cain simply disobeyed and did what he thought was right in his own sight...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The law showed us the payment for sin, the sacrificial laws we a symbol of what Christ did on the cross.

as scripture says, without the shedding of sin there can be no forgiveness. it also says the blood of bulls and goats never took away sin.

Scripure says the reason the high priest no longer has to sacrifice once a year on the day of atonement, for his own sin, and the sin of the poeple. is because Christ paid the price with his own blood. and sat down at the right hand of the father to make intercession as our high priest.

there is no more sacrifice for sin, it is either eternally forgiven by grace, or eternally condemned because of unbelief.

there is no inbetween.

 

[Mitspa]

can you point out anyone on CC who claims we are under the law...??we are not saved by works of the law...but by grace through faith... and faith without works is dead....in this we must conclude that there must be works of the law and works of faith....since we are under grace by which we are saved through faith...and faith without works is dead...it is evident that in order to be saved by grace through faith your faith must have works...

both Cain and Abel would have known about sacrificing blood to God for the atonement for sins...it has nothing to do with the ground being cursed...but what is required by God......Cain simply disobeyed and did what he thought was right in his own sight...

Well I think I have seen many who claim to be under law...come on be honest .. And of course the picture of Cain and able is about law and grace...about offering the Lamb of God by faith...this picture of faith can be seen through out the whole bible... and of course you cant give to God what He has cursed. And the law is cursed

 

[newbirth]

The law showed us the payment for sin, the sacrificial laws we a symbol of what Christ did on the cross.

as scripture says, without the shedding of sin there can be no forgiveness. it also says the blood of bulls and goats never took away sin.

Scripure says the reason the high priest no longer has to sacrifice once a year on the day of atonement, for his own sin, and the sin of the poeple. is because Christ paid the price with his own blood. and sat down at the right hand of the father to make intercession as our high priest.

there is no more sacrifice for sin, it is either eternally forgiven by grace, or eternally condemned because of unbelief.

there is no inbetween.

before one obey Christ he is under condemnation in unbelief...you are saying he is eternally condemn...then he could not be saved.......when one obey Christ he is not under condemnation...you are saying he is eternally saved...then he can sin and live like the devil in hell and still be saved...

you post scripture without understanding what you post...if one is eternally forgiven ....... why would there be a need for intercession?

 

[Mitspa]

before one obey Christ he is under condemnation in unbelief...you are saying he is eternally condemn...then he could not be saved.......when one obey Christ he is not under condemnation...you are saying he is eternally saved...then he can sin and live like the devil in hell and still be saved...

you post scripture without understanding what you post...if one is eternally forgiven ....... why would there be a need for intercession?

Who wants to sin when they are born-again? When your born-again there is a heart change...sure its not as evident in some ..but God has a system in the New Covenant to correct His people but its not the law of Moses. Why did the Lord intercede for Peter? "so that his faith might stand" We need the Lords help and intercession all the time for many reasons... not because God has made us sinners but because He has justified us and wants us to walk in the truth of who we are In Christ...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

before one obey Christ he is under condemnation in unbelief...you are saying he is eternally condemn...then he could not be saved.......when one obey Christ he is not under condemnation...you are saying he is eternally saved...then he can sin and live like the devil in hell and still be saved...

so you totally ignore the symbol of the law?

you post scripture without understanding what you post...if one is eternally forgiven ....... why would there be a need for intercession?

why? because we still sin, And we are accused by satan because we still sin, So Christ intercedes on our behalf.

Again look at the law.

Man sinned, gave a sacrifice, sin forgiven by the animals death.

Nation sinned, High priest on day of atonement gave sacrifice, Gave nation clean slate for the whole year.

the problem is, the nation and man still sinned, so sacrifice had to be continual. Until Christ came.

it was a tool to teach you my friend, when are you going to learn what it taught?

 

[newbirth]

Well I think I have seen many who claim to be under law...come on be honest .. And of course the picture of Cain and able is about law and grace...about offering the Lamb of God by faith...this picture of faith can be seen through out the whole bible... and of course you cant give to God what He has cursed. And the law is cursed

That is why I asked you to ... point them out....you are the one who made the claim ...you are the one who need to be honest...It cannot be about law and grace...the law is established by grace through faith....
Romans 3:31
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

it is about disobedience and obedience...of faith...you are assuming that Cain and Abel had no idea what they were doing and by sheer luck Abel offered a better sacrifice....and if that is the case then Cain is not to be blamed for his poor offering...

[SUP]3 [/SUP]And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

[SUP]7 [/SUP]If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

 

[Mitspa]

You know I don't even know a lot of unsaved people who want to be sinners or evil ? I know I didn't really want to be bad I just didn't know how to be good until Gods grace came and changed my heart and gave me the strength to do good.

 

[Mitspa]

That is why I asked you to ... point them out....you are the one who made the claim ...you are the one who need to be honest...It cannot be about law and grace...the law is established by grace through faith....
Romans 3:31
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

it is about disobedience and obedience...of faith...you are assuming that Cain and Abel had no idea what they were doing and by sheer luck Abel offered a better sacrifice....and if that is the case then Cain is not to be blamed for his poor offering...

[SUP]3 [/SUP]And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

[SUP]7[/SUP]If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Im not interested in making biblical truth a personal issue...that don't give anyone room to move towards the truth by pointing fingers....I think most can tell who are trying to be teachers of the law, not knowing what they are saying or trying to affirm. Kinda like those who cant explain how Jesus fulfilled part of the law but not all, when He clearly said its every jot and tittle that He came to fulfill.

 

[newbirth]

so you totally ignore the symbol of the law?



why? because we still sin, And we are accused by satan because we still sin, So Christ intercedes on our behalf.

Again look at the law.

Man sinned, gave a sacrifice, sin forgiven by the animals death.

Nation sinned, High priest on day of atonement gave sacrifice, Gave nation clean slate for the whole year.

the problem is, the nation and man still sinned, so sacrifice had to be continual. Until Christ came.

it was a tool to teach you my friend, when are you going to learn what it taught?

so what do you mean by eternally forgiven...you made that claim ....if I told you I eternally forgive you it means you are forgiven always... never ending ....there is no need to come and ask or forgiveness which you already have....so your point about we still sin is moot...
you say we still sin because you know we are not eternally forgiven....and that is the reason we have an intercessor...yet you make the claim we are eternally forgiven.....

 

[eternally-gratefull]

so what do you mean by eternally forgiven...you made that claim ....if I told you I eternally forgive you it means you are forgiven always... never ending ....there is no need to come and ask or forgiveness which you already have....so your point about we still sin is moot...

No it is not moot. I still go to my father to confess my sin to him, even though my father loved me unconditionally. I did not have to go ask for forgiveness, to be forgiven, I was already forgiven, Because my earthly father loved me.

It did not mean I would not be chastened because I was wrong. I needed to learn my mistake, the first step in growing is to admit you made a mistake, that is what confession does.

I do not Go to God begging for forgiveness, I go to him and confess (admit) I have sinned against him.

you say we still sin because you know we are not eternally forgiven....and that is the reason we have an intercessor...yet you make the claim we are eternally forgiven.....

Again, you totally ignore that the law was supposed to teach you.

If I sinned, and that sin is not paid for. the only way I can be forgiven, is to have that sin paid for. No amount of repenting, confession or begging forgiveness will grant what I want,

God demanded a payment for sin (death) only death can overcome his righteous standard. that is what the word redeem means.

If jesus did not pay for ALL your sin on the cross.. you have no hope. period. there will be no heaven for you or I. the only thing we have to look forward to is hell.

 

[Mitspa]

so what do you mean by eternally forgiven...you made that claim ....if I told you I eternally forgive you it means you are forgiven always... never ending ....there is no need to come and ask or forgiveness which you already have....so your point about we still sin is moot...
you say we still sin because you know we are not eternally forgiven....and that is the reason we have an intercessor...yet you make the claim we are eternally forgiven.....

No the bible makes the claim that in Him (Christ) we have eternal salvation and God will not condemn us as sinners even as we struggle against the flesh.. and learn to walk in purity in the Spirit. The only warnings of being "unsaved" is made to those who reject the righteousness of faith and turn back to the law... because the law is not of faith.

 

[Mitspa]

This is odd to me? That some claim you must doubt your salvation to be in faith? That's not faith in the sure promises of God!

The warnings of the scripture are to those who are in doubt, not those who believe!

 

[newbirth]

Im not interested in making biblical truth a personal issue...that don't give anyone room to move towards the truth by pointing fingers....I think most can tell who are trying to be teachers of the law, not knowing what they are saying or trying to affirm. Kinda like those who cant explain how Jesus fulfilled part of the law but not all, when He clearly said its every jot and tittle that He came to fulfill.

everyone makes errors....and some stand proudly with their errors...so that is not pointing fingers....you do the same as those who say Jesus fulfil part of the law...when you say they are trying to be teachers of the law because they do that which is contained in the law...

How can you live by faith in God by not doing that are contained in the law...???

Romans 3:31
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

 

[Mitspa]

everyone makes errors....and some stand proudly with their errors...so that is not pointing fingers....you do the same as those who say Jesus fulfil part of the law...when you say they are trying to be teachers of the law because they do that which is contained in the law...

How can you live by faith in God by not doing that are contained in the law...???

Romans 3:31
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Its simple by love...love don't judge others by standard it does not keep itself...And the law is spiritual, its not fulfilled by the written code...in fact the written code produces sinful lust and desires and strengthens sin...

 

[newbirth]

No the bible makes the claim that in Him (Christ) we have eternal salvation and God will not condemn us as sinners even as we struggle against the flesh.. and learn to walk in purity in the Spirit. The only warnings of being "unsaved" is made to those who reject the righteousness of faith and turn back to the law... because the law is not of faith.

eternal salvation is to those who obey Him...you are saying one can disobey God and still have eternal salvation...God does not condemn us sin does because of the law...
Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

The law does not make anyone sin ...men sin because of error or choice....the law only tells you that you sinned...
Romans 7:12
Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

1 Timothy 1:8
But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

 

[Mitspa]

eternal salvation is to those who obey Him...you are saying one can disobey God and still have eternal salvation...God does not condemn us sin does because of the law...
Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

The law does not make anyone sin ...men sin because of error or choice....the law only tells you that you sinned...
Romans 7:12
Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

1 Timothy 1:8
But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

Well you keep trying to put words in my mouth that I have clearly not said...and using scripture out of context and outside of truth. Your post are becoming more and more unbiblical and harder to see and rational point?


Ro 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.