THE GREAT DEBATE...LAW AND GRACE

[kennethcadwell]

Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Here we have the Apostle Paul talking to Apostle Timothy:

1 Timothy 5:22
Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure.

2 Timothy 2:21-26
If you keep yourself pure, you will be a utensil God can use for his purpose. Your life will be clean, and you will be ready for the Master to use you for every good work. 22 Run from anything that stimulates youthful lust. Follow anything that makes you want to do right. Pursue faith and love and peace, and enjoy the companionship of those who call on the Lord with pure hearts. 23Again I say, don't get involved in foolish, ignorant arguments that only start fights. 24 The Lord's servants must not quarrel but must be kind to everyone. They must be able to teach effectively and be patient with difficult people. 25 They should gently teach those who oppose the truth. Perhaps God will change those people's hearts, and they will believe the truth. 26 Then they will come to their senses and escape from the Devil's trap. For they have been held captive by him to do whatever he wants.

 

[haz]

so it is wrong for one to say....
the wages of sin is still death...

No, it's not wrong to say that.

But "sin" does not apply to the new creation (Rom 8:33, 1John 3:6-9. 1Pet 4:1).

Sin only applies to non-believers, which includes legalists who determine righteousness by works of the law.

and if one in Christ is not charged of sin...then why would scripture say...
1 John 5:16
If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

The sin unto death is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Such sin is not forgiven.

The sin not unto death is when someone is in sin of unbelief out of ignorance.

Romans 6:11-13King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

And for Christians we are dead to sin (Rom 6:7, Rom 8:10).

To let sin reign in your mortal body is to turn back to the law to determine one's righteousness. To turn back to the law is to make yourself a sinner, Gal 2:18.

Romans 2:5-7King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
[SUP]7 [/SUP]To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

The "well doing" spoken of in Rom 2:7 is believing on Jesus. That is how we get eternal life (John 3:16)
Remember that it's God's will that we believe on Jesus, John 6:40.
It's Christ's commandment that we believe on Jesus, John 3:16.
Our works are to believe on Jesus, John 6:29.
We overcome the world when we believe on Jesus, 1John 5:4.

And the sin the world is convicted of is unbelief in Jesus, John 16:9.

 

[haz]

Revelation 12:17, "And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went to make war with those who forsook her seed; her seed being those who keep the Laws of Yahweh, and have the testimony of Yahshua Messiah."

I thought we had determined that you don't keep the laws of Yahweh anyway (post #2033).

 

[haz]

You are misusing the context in 1 John 3:9.
For if you think this means sin can not be imputed on a believer, it is not.
Because then you will be having it contradict what he said back 1 John 1:8-10, and 2:1. What John is saying in 3:9 goes hand and hand with the those others, so when you take scripture to interpret scripture to get the full meaning it would go like this.
One who is born of God does not willfully sin, for they will not let them control them and will confess their sins to the Lord to receive remission for them by His blood.

You are twisting scripture again. 1John 3:9 does not say "willfully" sin. It says "cannot sin".
You should not be adding to God's word like that.

And read 1John 1 from the beginning to see it's evangelical context.

You keep wanting to twist things and make it be spiritual and not an actual physical sin. That is fallacy and 1 Peter 4:1 you gave only says you have ceased from sin if you arm yourself with the same mind the Lord had. He walked with love, self control, and faithfulness.

1Cor 2:13-16 tells us scripture is to be spiritually discerned.
And it also says that the natural man does not receive the things of the spirit. If you do not see the spiritual truth in scripture then either your a baby Christian who still needs a lot to learn, or else your a natural man who sees the things of the spirit as foolishness, 1Cor 2:14.

Galatians 5:22-26
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

If you are in Christ you will show self control, and you will turn away from all your passions and desires of the flesh. Not still do them and not worry because they no longer can be imputed on you again.

Here we have the Apostle Paul talking to Apostle Timothy:
1 Timothy 5:22
Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure.
2 Timothy 2:21-26
If you keep yourself pure, you will be a utensil God can use for his purpose. Your life will be clean, and you will be ready for the Master to use you for every good work. 22 Run from anything that stimulates youthful lust. Follow anything that makes you want to do right. Pursue faith and love and peace, and enjoy the companionship of those who call on the Lord with pure hearts. 23Again I say, don't get involved in foolish, ignorant arguments that only start fights. 24 The Lord's servants must not quarrel but must be kind to everyone. They must be able to teach effectively and be patient with difficult people. 25 They should gently teach those who oppose the truth. Perhaps God will change those people's hearts, and they will believe the truth. 26 Then they will come to their senses and escape from the Devil's trap. For they have been held captive by him to do whatever he wants.

Paul tells Timothy who is another apostle that he can become impure again do to sin, and says only if he remains pure will he be acceptable for use by God to do His will. And impure person who does not confess their sins because they believe they can not be imputed on them any more opposes the truth, and Paul says perhaps God will change their heart. For it says that they are captive to the Devil believing they can do whatever they want.

Here you are reading scripture without spiritual discernment.

Read 1John 3:3 on how Christians have purified themselves. Believe on Jesus.

 

[Hizikyah]

1 John 1:8-10, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Law is not in us."


1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

I assume from this answer that you don't keep the law.

I thought we had determined that you don't keep the laws of Yahweh anyway (post #2033).

No that was just you being a judgmental deceiver.

For you say nothing you can do is sin right?

Nuff said.

 

[Hizikyah]

Revelation 12:17, "And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went to make war with those who forsook her seed; her seed being those who keep the Laws of Yahweh, and have the testimony of Yahshua Messiah."

King James Bible
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“Blessings to those who are doing his Commandments; their authority shall be over The Tree of Life, and they shall enter The City by the gates.”

Jubilee Bible 2000
Blessed are those who do his commandments that their power and authority might be in the tree of life and they may enter in through the gates into the city.

King James 2000 Bible
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

American King James Version
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Webster's Bible Translation
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Weymouth New Testament
Blessed are those who wash their robes clean, that they may have a right to the Tree of Life, and may go through the gates into the city.

World English Bible
Blessed are those who do his commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city.

Young's Literal Translation
'Happy are those doing His commands that the authority shall be theirs unto the tree of the life, and by the gates they may enter into the city;

 

[haz]

No that was just you being a judgmental deceiver.

For you say nothing you can do is sin right?

Nuff said.

Actually I said that there is no sin in Christ (1John 3:5), and that a Christian's life is hid with Christ in God (Col 3:3). Hence Christians cannot sin, 1John 3:9, we've ceased from sin, 1Pet 4:1..
Are you saying there is sin in Christ when you quote 1John 1:8, wrongly claiming it refers to Christians?

And when I asked if you keep the law (which means obey it perfectly, James 2:10), you replied by quoting 1John 1:8 suggesting that Christians sin. Naturally, anybody would conclude from such an answer that you therefore sin/transgress the law/don't keep the law.

But now I see you avoid my question about whether you perfectly obey (keep) the law by using a diversionary accusation that I'm a "judgmental deceiver".

It would be helpful to debate if you directly answered my question instead of using diversionary tactics.

Either you keep the law (obey it perfectly since the day you received Christ), or you don't keep the law. Yes, or no?

 

[newbirth]

No, it's not wrong to say that.

But "sin" does not apply to the new creation (Rom 8:33, 1John 3:6-9. 1Pet 4:1).

Sin only applies to non-believers, which includes legalists who determine righteousness by works of the law.

so we can conclude a legalist is in ignorance...

The sin unto death is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Such sin is not forgiven.

The sin not unto death is when someone is in sin of unbelief out of ignorance.

by these statement you conclude the new creation cannot sin even in ignorance....since sin only applies to non-believers

And for Christians we are dead to sin (Rom 6:7, Rom 8:10).

To let sin reign in your mortal body is to turn back to the law to determine one's righteousness. To turn back to the law is to make yourself a sinner, Gal 2:18.

in your previous statement you state sin does not apply to a a new creature ...who is it that turns back to law in this statement to make them self a sinner? your claim is, sin only apply to non believers...you are saying a non believer...who is a sinner... is turning back to the law....to become a sinner...

The "well doing" spoken of in Rom 2:7 is believing on Jesus. That is how we get eternal life (John 3:16)
Remember that it's God's will that we believe on Jesus, John 6:40.
It's Christ's commandment that we believe on Jesus, John 3:16.
Our works are to believe on Jesus, John 6:29.
We overcome the world when we believe on Jesus, 1John 5:4.

And the sin the world is convicted of is unbelief in Jesus, John 16:9.

so you conclude ...simply believe in Jesus and and you are exempt from sin and condemnation of the law....

 

[newbirth]

Actually I said that there is no sin in Christ (1John 3:5), and that a Christian's life is hid with Christ in God (Col 3:3). Hence Christians cannot sin, 1John 3:9, we've ceased from sin, 1Pet 4:1..
Are you saying there is sin in Christ when you quote 1John 1:8, wrongly claiming it refers to Christians?

And when I asked if you keep the law (which means obey it perfectly, James 2:10), you replied by quoting 1John 1:8 suggesting that Christians sin. Naturally, anybody would conclude from such an answer that you therefore sin/transgress the law/don't keep the law.

But now I see you avoid my question about whether you perfectly obey (keep) the law by using a diversionary accusation that I'm a "judgmental deceiver".

It would be helpful to debate if you directly answered my question instead of using diversionary tactics.

Either you keep the law (obey it perfectly since the day you received Christ), or you don't keep the law. Yes, or no?

[SUP]2 [/SUP]For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

 

[Hizikyah]

Actually I said that there is no sin in Christ (1John 3:5), and that a Christian's life is hid with Christ in God (Col 3:3). Hence Christians cannot sin, 1John 3:9, we've ceased from sin, 1Pet 4:1..
Are you saying there is sin in Christ when you quote 1John 1:8, wrongly claiming it refers to Christians?

And when I asked if you keep the law (which means obey it perfectly, James 2:10), you replied by quoting 1John 1:8 suggesting that Christians sin. Naturally, anybody would conclude from such an answer that you therefore sin/transgress the law/don't keep the law.

But now I see you avoid my question about whether you perfectly obey (keep) the law by using a diversionary accusation that I'm a "judgmental deceiver".

It would be helpful to debate if you directly answered my question instead of using diversionary tactics.

Either you keep the law (obey it perfectly since the day you received Christ), or you don't keep the law. Yes, or no?

You isolate and misuse Scripture.

"If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Law is not in us."

Part of the Law of Yahweh has reconciliation built into it. This should be clear for any who have heard of the Sacrifice of the Lamb. To be walking in and keeping His Law one must admit when they have sinned.

So there is no condemnation is Christ Jesus right?

Romans 8:1, "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

Does this apply to every single person who says, "I accept Jesus" ?

No.

1 Yahchanan (John) 2:6, "He who says he abides in Him, is himself also obligated to walk as He walked."

So what I see is many people grabbing a hold of verses that make them feel good about their walk, without consulting Scripture as a whole.

People love those stay as you are verses. (or at least verses that can be twisted into that doctrine)

 

[haz]

You isolate and misuse Scripture.

"If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and the truth is not in us."

Part of the Law of Yahweh has reconciliation built into it. This should be clear for any who have heard of the Sacrifice of the Lamb. To be walking in and keeping His Law one must admit when they have sinned.

So there is no condemnation is Christ Jesus right?

Romans 8:1, "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

Does this apply to every single person who says, "I accept Jesus" ?

No.

1 Yahchanan (John) 2:6, "He who says he abides in Him, is himself also obligated to walk as He walked."

So what I see is many people grabbing a hold of verses that make them feel good about their walk, without consulting Scripture as a whole.

People love those stay as you are verses. (or at least verses that can be twisted into that doctrine)

Like I thought, you don't keep the law anyway, yet you preach condemnation if we don't keep the law to a particular distorted, non-scriptural formula which involves admitting when you fail. In other words I suspect you keep a sin ledger like Kenneth does. Am I right in saying that you also preach the same as Kenneth that if we don't keep this sin ledger perfectly balanced with repentance then we're lost?

BTW, "Keep" is defined as:
To adhere to;
To continue to do:

Which is consistent with James 2:10 which states that just ONE offence makes you guilty of ALL the law.

What you have done is redefined "keep" to mean something other than it means. For you "keep" is no longer what James 2:10 describes about perfect obedience. Instead you define it as obeying the law sometimes, but at least admitting when you fail.

BTW, I noted how you changed wording in 1John 1:8 from the "truth" to "law".
Also 1John 1:8 is in keeping with the evangelical context of the chapter, hence it does not refer to Christians.

 

[Hizikyah]

1 John 2

3By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

 

[Hizikyah]

Leviticus 5:5 , "when anyone becomes aware that they are guilty in any of these matters, they must confess in what way they have sinned."

 

[Hizikyah]

Scripture says what it says, you may isolate Paul to error, I will not.

Mattithyah 5:19, "Whosoever, therefore, will break one of the least of these Laws, and will teach men so, he will be called the least in the Kingdom of Yahweh; but whosoever will do and teach them, the same will be called great in the Kingdom of Yahweh."

Mattithyah 22:36-40, "Teacher, what is the greatest commandment in the Law? Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Yahchanan (John) 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

Mattithyah 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

Mattithyah 7:23, "But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity."

iniquity is:#0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

Luke 6:46, "And why call Me; Ruler! Ruler! and do not the things which I say?"

Revelation 22:12-15, "And behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work will be. I am the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who keep His Laws, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For outside are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and worshipers of gods and everyone who professes to love, yet practices falsehood."

Yahchanan 8:31, "...If you continue in My doctrine, then you are truly My disciples."

Mattithyah 24:12, "And because iniquity will abound, the love of the many will grow cold."

"iniquity" is:#0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

 

[Hizikyah]

Mr Haz, if you want me to see things your way, why dont you show me how the Law should not be followed using any writer besides Paul?

Because Scripture it's self says Paul can be misunderstood and turned into iniquity:


2 peter 3:15-17, "And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability."

 

[haz]

Hi Hiz

So I guess you're not going to explain why you changed the word "truth" to "the law" in 1John 1:8?

1 John 2

3By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

Jesus walked by faith, and Christians likewise walk by faith, (2Cor 5:7), we believe on Jesus thus our faith is counted for righteousness.

BTW, Christians keep his commandments.
1John 3:22,23
we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

 

[haz]

Leviticus 5:5 , "when anyone becomes aware that they are guilty in any of these matters, they must confess in what way they have sinned."

Lev 5 speaks about those under the law.
And whatever the law says it says to those under it, Rom 3:19.

But Christians are not under the jurisdiction of the law (Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:25, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9).
Hence your point is irrelevant.

 

[Hizikyah]

Hi Hiz

So I guess you're not going to explain why you changed the word "truth" to "the law" in 1John 1:8?



Jesus walked by faith, and Christians likewise walk by faith, (2Cor 5:7), we believe on Jesus thus our faith is counted for righteousness.

BTW, Christians keep his commandments.
1John 3:22,23
we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

There are greek texts that read that way, I will admit it is an newer text, and honestly I see no difference in either reading, I know others will have a different view on that. I personally dont.

 

[Hizikyah]

Hi Hiz

So I guess you're not going to explain why you changed the word "truth" to "the law" in 1John 1:8?



Jesus walked by faith, and Christians likewise walk by faith, (2Cor 5:7), we believe on Jesus thus our faith is counted for righteousness.

BTW, Christians keep his commandments.
1John 3:22,23
we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

Believe and love yes. How do we love?

......


Mattithyah 22:37-40, "Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."


Romans 13:9-10, "For the commandments: You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not bring false testimony, You shall not covet, and all other commandments are summed up in these Laws; namely: You must love your neighbor as yourself. Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."

 

[Hizikyah]

Lev 5 speaks about those under the law.
And whatever the law says it says to those under it, Rom 3:19.

But Christians are not under the jurisdiction of the law (Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:25, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9).
Hence your point is irrelevant.

Romans 8:5-8, "For those who live according to the flesh, set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit, set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against; (bitterly opposed to), Yahweh; for it his not subject to the Law of Yahweh, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are of the flesh cannot please Yahweh."