I don't know how you can think killing hundreds of thousands of innocent Muslims in retaliation for 3000 American deaths is the same as not giving your child medical treatement to save its life.
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I don't know how you can think killing hundreds of thousands of innocent Muslims in retaliation for 3000 American deaths is the same as not giving your child medical treatement to save its life.
This is one of the most idiotic arguments I've ever read. What you're saying is like saying that the US government allow the black part of Compton to live by its own laws. But they don't. They investigate and attempt to find those who have broken United States law.
In France, small areas exist that are predominantly Muslim, just like small parts of any country can be populated by certain nationalites -- China Town, the Irish quarter -- etc. It doesn't mean the government allow them to live by whatever legal code they like, they're still subject to national law.
I mean, what do you hardline American Islamophobes want the French government to do? Divide and conquer? Turf all the Muslims in predominantly Muslim communities out of their homes and make sure they never live within close proximity to one another? lol while we're at it we'll all go to the Bronx, find the IRA supporters, ship them to Dublin and make sure there are never any more than three in the same street ...
I do not wish to be martyred, nor did Stephen. And defense from invasion is different than invasion. Would I stand up and fight for America if we were invaded? Yes. Would I conscientiously object, or seek the role of a medic/chaplain in the military if we were to invade another country? Yes. You mix the two and call them one. A Crusade is an invasion, that's what I object to.
Pacifism is my moral compass for my own sake. I will not defend my life, and would preferably let the other kill me if the gauntlet were thrown. And before you claim coward, even Johnny Cash sang about the "Reverend Mr. Black." I do not condone pacifism as an excuse of not defending another. (However, if we use the word pacifism in its "Medieval" meaning, one who does not seek violence and refuses to seek to kill, I would be a pacifist 24/7 no matter the situation. Big difference between the two ideas.)
Also, the "Mongol Hordes" were not as destructive as you think, and far more dangerous than you realize. They were not a people of hate, but of tolerance and acceptance. Read about the vision of Ghengis Khan, you will be horrified to learn that the Mongol Empire bears more resemblance to secular humanism than it does to Islam.
Also, you fear Islam. Look at the surety of failure you have. You imply that we are in a struggle for our lives and existence, when we are only in a struggle for "our" lives. Our existence is not dictated by Muslims, but is dictated by God. You call my faith "fatalism" only because you believe that we would fail and be stripped from the earth. I'm sorry, but I do not agree. God will not allow it.
And you, by the way, have not answered my questions either...so we're both in the doghouse for that. Where were the warriors of God when Stephen was stoned? When Peter was crucified? When Paul was beheaded? When Andrew was skewered? When Christians were mauled by starving lions? When Christians were boiled alive in oil? When Christians were hung over pits of filth in Japan? ETC...
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theyre gonna have too now or later. Now would be smart but later will just be necessary for survival.
WHY DO YOU WISH THIS ON PEOPLE? YOU KNOW YOU WOULD SCREAM THAT IT WOULD BE EVIL IF DONE TO US!!!!
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Except I don't hold the value of convert or die. The Islamists do. Therefore they will have to be defeated at some point.
I do think Jesus and his disciples were pacifists, or at least that's what Jesus wanted them to be. When we look at the instance of the disciple cutting the ear off a roman soldier, we see Jesus telling him off for it. To me, that says that Jesus' sword wasn't a physical one, that his words were a teaching against violence. When he said ''When I sent you without cloak, purse or sandals, did you require anything?'' and the disciples reply ''no'', and he says ''Then if you have a purse, take it, and a the same with your bag; if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one!'' he's saying ''If you never required a cloak or a purse or sandals, and still wanted for nothing, then why would you want any of those things now?''
Clearly he replied to Peter in this way, because Peter said he would go to prison and death with Jesus, gladly, and Jesus knew that the disciples would fail to remain resolute in the face of imprisonment and death. Hence he says ''before the clock crows, you'll have denied me three times''.
He wasn't saying ''buy a sword and be violent'', he was saying ''if you've never needed a sword till now, then stay steadfast, if you can''.
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Again, define pacifism. Under the "Medieval" understanding it was one who did not seek violence and if resorted to violence did not seek to kill. An example would be, if a pacifist saw a man being beaten, he would charge headfirst into the crowd to protect the man being beaten. However, he would not have sought to kill any of the men committing the beating.
If we go by modern pacifism, which is born out of Eastern philosophies, then you stand and shout at the crowd to stop beating the man, but do nothing to save the man or themselves when the crowd turned violent towards them.
The first is peace at the cost of my life. The second is peace at all costs. I live by the first.
I don't really consider you much better than them, then. I think the only difference is that while you'll use thelaw or the government to justify bigotry, oppression and exclusion and you seem to think it would be righteous and okay because it's state sponsored, the extremists have no illusions about going out and actively oppressing regardless of law. How's that strike you? Sound like I'm defending extremism? I'm not. I simply oppose bigotry, hatred and un-empathetic attitudes in all their forms, but moreso when they're augmented with some idea that they are more valid than other forms of bigotry and hatred because the government does it. It's that kind of logic that paints anti-American boys who've had their entire families wiped out in drone strikes and who oppose America less justified than Americans who've never been the victim of an extremist attack in their lives but who are willing to kill strangers from some command centre like a Call of Duty installment.
You need to realize something. Nobody on this planet wants to be oppressed. For that desire to be realized no person should seek to oppress others, then oppression would not exist. I do not ever seek to oppress nor to condone oppression in any form. Do you?
You look to the monster without recognizing that the assassin's blade is already out and he is standing beside you. Satan is attacking us from all sides, with Islam, the monster, and the atheist, the assassin. Neither will succeed. So lets, not support the atheists and pagans rage at the monster, when we know full well that soon that same rage and much of its process will be turned on us.
If it was wrong to do to us, then it is wrong to do to them.
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ya and nobody wants to be firebombed for posting a silly picture. Your defense of savage fundamentalism is juvenile as well as ignorant.
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It isn't wrong if it saves the lives those who come after you from pure hatred and ignorance and an outright murderous and bloodthirsty mindset.
I'm not defending savagery. I'm calling out lopsided political-propaganda influenced idiocracy. Of course nobody wants to be firebombed for posting a picture. Nobody wants to have their pregant wives murdered by soldiers for stepping outside their home in the midle of the night. Nobody wants to be Abu-Ghraibed, nobody wants to hbe beheaded on live TV, nobody wants their village massacred in a drone strike, nobody wants their family trapped inside two burning towers.
So why the hell do you condone some of it and not the rest?
Is the young boy in Afghanistan who witnesses his family slaughtered as collateral and joins Al Qaeda any less jusitifed in doing so than the American boy who signs up for three years after an extremist killed his father?
Are the men of a country whose civilians have been slaughtered by the hundreds-of-thousands at American hands and who build a bomb in a mountain fortress any less justified than the American lad at the Army recruitment center who has witnessed a few thousand innocents of his country murdered in cold blood by a stolen jet?
Tell me on what basis you form your idea that any one is more justified than the other. If anything, the Afghans have more to be bitter about than you do.
You do realize that you just literally described your POV right there. Pure hatred, ignorance, and outright murderous and bloodthirsty mindset.
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The afghans harbor terrorists who would slit my children's throats in their sleep. There is no comparison but you are right on one point. War is anathema.
Realize though that the Afghans watched their children be raped and killed by the Spetnaz during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. In the morning, parents would dread hearing the sound of explosions because the Spetnaz had placed toys with landmines inside near Afghan villages.
(By the way, during the American invasion of Afghanistan, many of our humanitarian care packages we dropped were destroyed by the Afghans for the above reason. They thought we were trying to kill them.)
While that does not condone the Afghan extremist's views, believe me there are reasons why the people don't trust anyone outside of themselves.
There's no comparison? So killing more than 500,000 innocent people with bullets, jets, bombs and platoons is more justified than killing many less with more primitive tools? Last I checked, no Muslim in the US (that I've heard of) has gone into anybody's house and slit a child's throat; I do remember a few bombs going off in which children were injured, and of course some absolute nutcases going into a school and shooting children. There is definitely a comparison to be made though; I also remember reading (and watching video footage) about a few Americans who shot some pregnant women (and a few other inocents) in an Afghan village then tried to make up a cover story, who were found out and never faced a charge. And while some extremists mightn't have issue with going into your house and cutting your child's throat (particularly those whose children have been indiscrimately murdered by Western bombs and bullets), in my reading most terrorists want the Western armies to stop bombing innocents by the thousands each year and just get out of Muslim countries.
I can't say I blame them. I'm certain if your country was invaded by a superior force who massacred your people beyond anything you could possibly do with the tools at your disposal, shattered your infastructure and economy, engineered dissent and proactively encouraged legal and ethical systems against your customs you'd probably feel pretty aggrieved about it too.
I can't help but think, in all sincerity, that you consider those 3000 innocents -- men and women -- in the towers that day to be more valuable human beings than all the men, women and children the US have bombed and killed since. And for what?
For a list of targets that has grown exponentially; for hatred from a generation of middle Eastern Muslims who've been victim to the charade; for anti-Americanism to increase; for anti-Islamism to increase; for a magnificently stupid proportion of your yearly taxes to be spent on devices purposed to kill; for more threat from terrorism than has ever been and for a generation of Americans and Muslims to be brainwashed against each other.
Great. Especially for us rational people.
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Of course but it's time we get back to the American idealism that is unique in all history. That we are exceptional and provide hope for the world. We feed the poor and protect the weak. That is the true heart of America.