You are confusing the two different objects of your misunderstanding.
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kennethcadwell
Guest
So by your understanding one can receive the cleansing of their sins through the Lord without being born again ???
That does not compute with scripture, as the scripture says that one does not even receive remission tell after repentance and baptism ( Acts 2:38 ). The bible also says the process of baptism is the person being born again, as one is immersed into Christ death when placed under the water and then risen into His resurrection as in the spirit. Once this takes place in your faith along with the repentance of your past and present sins at the time, you become born again and receive His cleansing. From there confession for future sins is made to receive remission for them ( 1 John 1:9 ). If you do not confess those sins then you are walking in impurity.....
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kennethcadwell
Guest
I have personally seen this take place, so it is not a misunderstanding.
You can say that all you like if it makes you feel better, but unfortunately it happens and the bible speaks of it happening. As it says that many will not keep with enduring sound teaching, and will turn to doctrines that pervert the true gospel. And one of those ways it was perverted was by those who believe once they are in Christ they can go and live however they want. Unfortunately there are way to many scriptures in the bible against that.
Your conclusion is wrong, that those who are not made new creatures have had their sins cleansed.
The pig was not cleansed in the NT sense of the word,
as made evident by his not becoming a new creature.
He remained the same old creature of the pig.
Therefore, he is not a symbol of a born-again Christian whose sins are cleansed.
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kennethcadwell
Guest
It says it clear as day in that passage that the sow was washed, which is cleansed...................
" and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”
If you take this with the rest of the passage it says they escaped the defilements of the world, which is cleansed of their sins. And it says how they escaped, and it was through Jesus Christ, which is the only way a person can be cleansed of their sins. Then it goes to say they are caught back up in sin, and overtaken by them, their ending has become worse then their beginning. Because they would have had salvation/eternal life if they would have continued in His ways, but they turned away to go back to a life of sin.
so in other words, man has the keeping power of salvation. Not God. gotcha.
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kennethcadwell
Guest
Hey I did not write the bible, I just give His word.
As the scriptures were written by men who were inspired by God on what to write, and this scripture from 2 Peter 2:20-22 says they were cleansed of their old sins through the knowledge of Christ. Which would be they were lead to repentance and baptism (Acts 2:38) to receive remission of their sins. Just to then turn away from Him to go back to a life of willful sin, and it says because of that their ending is worse then their beginning.
Now you can take that any way you want, but as far as I am concerned this is not a lose of rewards. Because if it was rewards then their ending would not be worse then their beginning, as they would still be in heaven. The only way this could be taken as a worse ending is they received no salvation/eternal life for returning to willful sin.
Plus it says in verse 21 it would have been better if they hadn't known the way to righteousness then to know it and then turn away from it. Compare this to what the Lord said in Luke 12:46-48 about the disobedient servant.
I was gonna copy and paste every argument from every other OSAS thread but then i realised that would take too long 
They escaped the defilements of the world by being in the fellowship of the church for a time,
where they learned of Jesus Christ and the way of righteousness.
No, they escaped by knowledge of Jesus Christ.
Peter's strong language here is for the morally corrupt false teachers of chp 2, who in their apostasy
are leading the new immature Christians (2:18) into corruption and sin.
Yes, it is better to be ignorant than to be an apostate, which in effect condemns
the way of righteousness, saying it knows something of that way having been in it for a time,
but has found fault with it, and falsehood in its truth.
At least ignorance does not condemn The Way.
Peter describes the corruption of the false teachers in 2:1-19, and
the apostasy of these false teachers in 2:20-22, comparing them to
dogs that return to their vomit and pigs that go back to wallowing in the mud.
The "washing" of the pig is simply the reference point for "going back,"
as "vomiting" of the dog (not mentioned) is the reference point for "going back,"
and "knowledge" of the Christian life of the apostate is the reference point for "going back."
All apostates have apostasized from The Way,
and their apostasy is to show, and does show, they were never saved (1Jn 2:19),
not that they have lost their salvation
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kennethcadwell
Guest
Yes it is about apostate teaching, but it still says they started off under the teachings of the Lord.
They then turned from that teaching and went back to a life of sins as it says in verses 3 and 14, and verse 15 says they have forsaken the right way and gone astray. Showing they were still walking properly, and in that saving grace at one point. They then turned and went astray because they could not give up their life of sins, and then they go and teach others the same nonsense. You can be saved and still walk in your sins, or in other words telling people they can serve two masters. The bible says you can not however................
Matthew 6:24
No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Romans 8:7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Well, we know that Jonah repent and came back through gods grace. Also we know that there are people which claim to be a christian, they going to church, pray but in their heart they never said Yes to the Lord. Also some believers may have in the begining a "holy" life. Then leaving through any ocasion the church, god. (I know from man he confessed that and after many Years and a destroyed family he repent) The thing is, we can´t looking into the heart from somebody. The scripture says clear in John 3, 16 that everybody who believes in the Lord Jesus is saved. And if we are honest we can not live without to sin. I can not, you can? The Lord has payed for my sin! So if we are not safed, we will be judged for every sin which we will do. We will live in fear and hope that we do not forget to ask for forgiveness for every single sin. What is if we die then and have forgotten to ask to forgiveness for only one sin? Then we will condemned. In my bible I find that we can not fix our salvation by ourself. The Lord fixed it for us. If somebody lives in the way like you mentioned, i doubt that he is born again. See in 2. Peter 2 from vers 1 -22. I dont think that Peter is talking from a born again, but from somebody who knows the scripture and the gospel. Back to your question which is little bit hypothetic:I cant imagine that a born again christian will act in this way. I believe a born again christian can going his own life, but then he will be empty enter the heaven. How this looks like the scripture said in 1. Corinthians 3,15.
An question to you Kaycie, why you ask?
An question to you Kaycie, why you ask?
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kennethcadwell
Guest
The part I highlighted above is what I wanted to address, because the good news is this.
You do not have to know personally every single sin you committed as in what it was and when you did it, a general confession to the Lord everyday will give you that remission to cover your sins by His blood. This however does not give a person free will to sin, as Paul and one of his understudies in Hebrews clearly says a believer can not continue to live a life in willful sins. The Holy Spirit is sent here to guide us and strengthen us in areas we are weak in, if you allow Him to.
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[h=1]Psalm 19:12-13[/h]12 Who can understand his errors?
Cleanse me from secret faults.
13 Keep back Your servant also from presumptuous sins;
Let them not have dominion over me.
Then I shall be blameless,
And I shall be innocent of great transgression.
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[h=1]Matthew 6:9-13[/h]9 In this manner, therefore, pray:
Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10 Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
As we forgive our debtors.
13 And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one.
For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.
1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
You mentioned the daily prayer for forgiveness, and what is if you do not for some days? I wantet to say. If you believe that you can loose your salvation, then you must live in fear. Because then you can not be shure to enter the heaven, because the sin seperate us from God. I believe that when i will die just know, i will be in heaven with the Lord, even when I forgot to confess the sins from the past day. Because the Lord Jesus has already payed for my sins.
But I agree with you, we are not be saved for to live like before.(romans 6, 12.13.19) and also I agree with 1 John1, 9, this became an important vers for me, when I became a christian
But I agree with you, we are not be saved for to live like before.(romans 6, 12.13.19) and also I agree with 1 John1, 9, this became an important vers for me, when I became a christian
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kennethcadwell
Guest
That is just it, if you are walking properly and letting the Holy Spirit guide you then you should not be afraid of losing that salvation for you would not let sin have dominion over your life. The problem is that people have to much doubt in them still, and do not believe they could ever have a handle on sin. This however is not what the bible says.
The bible says it is only impossible by us alone, but with God's Holy Spirit nothing is impossible...................
Matthew 19:26
But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
Mark 10:27
And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.
Luke 18:27
And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.
Philippians 4:13
I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.
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MadParrotWoman
Guest
Hmmm this is an interesting and thought-provoking discussion, no matter how many times the OSAS question is raised it appears never to be salved.
I have always been of the opinion that once we are saved that is pretty much it, that our mistakes or behaviour cannot take away our status just so long as we continue to WANT God in our lives and TRY to behave accordingly BUT should we choose to walk away from God, wilfully walk away disregarding Him and returning to a lifestyle that dismisses Him then salvation would surely no longer be assured.
Now on reading some of the responses here I am forced to question this previous belief of mine. God IS unchangeable - can we really influence His decision with our salvation? I don't know but I do know that many opinions are worth seeking in order to discover truth. It's not simply a case of picking random Bible verses based around the salvation issue but studying the context in which they were written.
I'm re-thinking this..
I have always been of the opinion that once we are saved that is pretty much it, that our mistakes or behaviour cannot take away our status just so long as we continue to WANT God in our lives and TRY to behave accordingly BUT should we choose to walk away from God, wilfully walk away disregarding Him and returning to a lifestyle that dismisses Him then salvation would surely no longer be assured.
Now on reading some of the responses here I am forced to question this previous belief of mine. God IS unchangeable - can we really influence His decision with our salvation? I don't know but I do know that many opinions are worth seeking in order to discover truth. It's not simply a case of picking random Bible verses based around the salvation issue but studying the context in which they were written.
I'm re-thinking this..
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forsha
Guest
Did Christ die for those that God gave him for all of their sins, or just a part of their sins? When he died for them did he not wash away all of their sins, if so, how could they be lost eternally? John 6:39 says that he will lose none of them.
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forsha
Guest
1 Cor 2:14 tells us that the natural man (one that does not have the Spirit of God dwelling in him) can not know spiritual things, so if a man knows that there is a God and desires to praise and honor him, we can assume that he is a child of God, born of the Spirit.
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forsha
Guest
First of all, you have to understand that we all continue to sin, but those who have been born of the Spirit will not lose their eternal salvation. All those that Jesus died for, he will not lose even one of them, John 6:39. When those that Christ died for sin, God chastens them to repent, but they have not lost their eternal inheritance. Salvation means (a deliverance), and when a Christian sins they lose their fellowship with God, but not their eternal salvation. Every time that a child of God repents it brings about a salvation (deliverance). Most of the salvation scriptures are referring to timely deliverances, and not eternal. Scripture does not contradict its self.
No, a reformed life does not mean you are saved.
You must be transformed into a new creature, which they were not.
Keeping in mind that if they leave The Way,
God will discipline the saved, his sons, and bring them back.
He does not do this for apostates who were never born again and are not his sons.