I know what I meant, so no I'm not being hard on myself, I thought you were being hard on me.
2 seeds, 2 Jerusalems
- Thread starter InSpiritInTruth
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I know what I meant, so no I'm not being hard on myself, I thought you were being hard on me.
I know what I meant, so no I'm not being hard on myself, I thought you were being hard on me.
No, I was just saying.
I didnt clobber you with anything dont be a pansy
(LOL!)
Your like my third eye, you catch my typos and hickups. Remember my blob? LOL What would I do without my third eye?
Your like my third eye, you catch my typos and hickups. Remember my blob? LOL What would I do without my third eye?
Now you done it, you named a third eye deal that is not Kosher on a christian board, you could have just thanked me for being a pal (lol!)
The allegory in the text of Gal 4:21-31 is no bigger than a comparison
of the Sinaitic and the New covenant.
It's not about two seeds, it's about two covenants.
It's about the children (represented by Ishmael and Isaac)
of two mothers who represent
two covenants, the Sinaitic and the New covenants.
Paul says the two mothers Hagar and Sarah, and their sons, represent two covenants.
One covenant is from MT Sinai and bears children (represented by Ishmael) who are to be slaves.
This is Hagar who stands for Mt. Sinai and corresponds to the earthly Jerusalem,
because she is in slavery with her children, the Jews of Paul's day, to the law issued at Mt. Sinai.
The other covenant is from the Promise (Christ) and bears children (represented by Isaac)
who are of the Promise.
This is Sarah who stands for the new covenant and corresponds to the heavenly Jerusalem that is free.
And Paul tells the Galatian Gentiles that, like Isaac, they are children of promise (v. 23; Ro 9:8).
Agreed. . .the two sons are representative of those born from the two mothers who represent the Sinaitic and New covenants.There was no law of Sinai when Abraham had the 2 sons. (it's symbolic) the law came much later (hello!)
Two seeds and two mind sets are your personal application of the allegory.
There is no textual basis in Gal 4:21-31 for making that application.
Could you use some kind of app to pull them up and print them for you?
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Oh boy, wasn't even thinking bout that (good grief) Shows where your mind is (for shame) repent!; but yea thanks for nothing. LOL
All disobedience can be viewed as breaking the law of faith.
However, Paul is referring to the Ten Commandments of Exodus which revealed his sin to him,
and not to the commandment of God to Adam in the garden.
No just print the verses for all to see. (thanks) Again your ignoring the 2 son allegory,(flesh and Spirit) which pertains to the 2 seeds, which has to do with the 2 mind sets. I already covered this in other posts. Until you understand the 2 seeds, 2 mind sets of earthly vs heavenly, you won't get the big picture of what is being said in the 2 Covenants.
Again, here is the enmity between the 2 spirits or minds (flesh/ Spirit)
Genesis 6:3And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
Again there are 2 minds of understanding (flesh /Spirit)
Romans 8:6
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. (flesh/Spirit)
1 Corinthians 2:16
For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.
But this something only the Lord can reveal to someone, not me, nor any amount of scripture.
Yes dear, but it is all the same in concept, God said not do a thing.....and man does it anyway= transgression against Gods command.
Are you talking about what you see as the big picture being said in the two covenants,
or about what Paul is saying in his allegory of the two covenants?
They aren't the same thing.
I'm talking about what Paul is saying in his allegory of the two covenants.
I'm not ignoring the allegroy, I am using it the way Paul uses it; i.e.,
born of the Promise (Christ) by the power of the Spirit, to signify
believers in Christ (the Promise) who are born of the Spirit (Jn 3:3, 5-6)
and are free from the bondage of the law, as the children of Sarah were free from the bondage of slavery.
But you aren't using the allegory the way Paul used it.
Paul is showing the difference between believers who rested in Christ only
in the new covenant, and the Judaizers who trusted in the law of the old covenant. . .
"Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law (Pentateuch, Lk 24:44) says?" (Gal 4:21)
(If you were aware, you would see in Ge 16; 21:10 why there is little reason to trust in it.). . .
by the historical account of Ishmael and Isaac,
where Ishmael was born according to the flesh, in the natural way, and
Isaac was born of a barren mother, contrary to the natural way,
and says the account is an allegory showing something more, which was
that the mothers prefigure the two covenants and their differing orders
(old order and new order, Heb 9:10).
Hagar is Mt Sinai in Arabia (which was called Hagar by the Arabians), and it represents
the present state of the Jews, who continuing to remain under the old covenant, are
still in bondage with their children.
Sarah represents the heavenly Jerusalem, which is
Chrisians under the new and better order of the new covenant,
who are free from the curse of the moral law
and free from the bondage of the ceremonial law,
and this Sarah is our mother, of both Jews and Gentiles who believe in Christ.
Paul says that, like Isaac, NT believers are the children of the promise,
and just as the child born of the flesh persecuted the child born of the promise,
so it is with the Galatians.
And he uses what the law (Pentateuch, Lk 24:44) says. . .
"Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman's son will never share
in the inheritance with the free woman's son." (Gal 4:30). . .
as his basis for teaching the Galatians to put the Judaizers out of the church.
Paul then concludes with the point he was making in his allegory:
"Therefore, brothers, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman." (Gal 4:31)
So again, Paul is not talking about two mind sets,
he is talking about the difference between believers who rested in Christ only
in the new covenant, and the Judaizers who trusted in the law of the old covenant.
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Elin, your missing the big picture of what the firstborn son represents in the scriptures, in Ishmael, in Adam, in Cain, Rueben, in Esau, etc; it repeats over and over in again scripture. The bondage is of sin in the firstborn man, that is the main theme of the Bible, not the law of Moses.
You can cast out the law if you wish, but guess what? Sin still remains. Jesus came not to destroy the law or prophets, but to fulfill (meaning the law is prophetic, and speaks of other things) And Jesus also came to destroy the works of the Devil, and the body of sin, and remove the enmity that was at work in the mind of the firstborn man of sin.
I see one camp wanting to cast out the old testament because they don't understand it, and another camp who wants to throw out the new testament because they don't understand it either.
I say keep both the old and new, but remove the enmity, even the vail of the flesh that keeps the mind from seeing and hearing what the law and prophets are truly saying by the Spirit, and to also hear what Paul is truly saying in all his letters.
Matthew 13:52
Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.
You can cast out the law if you wish, but guess what? Sin still remains. Jesus came not to destroy the law or prophets, but to fulfill (meaning the law is prophetic, and speaks of other things) And Jesus also came to destroy the works of the Devil, and the body of sin, and remove the enmity that was at work in the mind of the firstborn man of sin.
I see one camp wanting to cast out the old testament because they don't understand it, and another camp who wants to throw out the new testament because they don't understand it either.
I say keep both the old and new, but remove the enmity, even the vail of the flesh that keeps the mind from seeing and hearing what the law and prophets are truly saying by the Spirit, and to also hear what Paul is truly saying in all his letters.
Matthew 13:52
Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.
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That always reminded me of this treasure in our earthen vessel, and bringing forth out our own instruction two things things old and things new
And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
The two things, of Moses, and of the Lamb since Moses was a testimony for those things that would be spoken after as Jesus said, had ye believed Moses ye would have believed me, for he wrote of me (and Jesus spake parables of the hidden things of old) so the two coming forth here make great sense.
Romans 2:9-12[SUP]9 [/SUP]Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
[SUP]10 [/SUP]But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For there is no respect of persons with God.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;"
You can take away the law, but sin still remains. Cast out the sin nature in the firstborn man, then you'll have a righteous and holy nation.
It had to do with Jew and Gentile (Song of Moses, song of Lamb) it was not against you, but for the edification of all. Don't get your shorts in a bunch. LOL
So is the "church of the firstborn," whose names are written in heaven, also in bondage to sin?
"You have not come to a mountain that can be touched and that is burning with fire; to darkness,
gloom and storm (old covenant of Mt. Sinai). . .But you have come to Mt. Zion (new covenant) to
the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. . .to the church of the firstborn, whose names
are written in heaven." (Heb 12:18, 22-23)
Nor were Adam and Reuben in bondage to sin any more than the rest of God's people.
Nor. . .is that the representation in Paul's allegory.
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