Music in Church?

[SeaBass]

What of those who are absolutely awful singers? Can they be saved if they cannot sing?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Christians are to sing, good or bad singing has nothing to do with it.

 

[SeaBass]

the command for NT Christians to never not ever dare make a noise for God with anything but their mouths lest they fall fall from grace and lose their salvation has never existed since the dawn of time and there is no indication in scripture or by the Spirit that it ever will exist.

David was not commanded to play his harp for God.
he did anyway out of the love he had for God in his heart.
God approved.
God does not change.

David was not a Christian and David did not follow NT worship as directed by God for Christ took all the OT, along with its carnal type of worship, out of the way. God does not change but there was a change in laws, Heb 7:12 "For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law."

 

[notuptome]

Christians are to sing, good or bad singing has nothing to do with it.

I'm certain that billions of people all over the world are so relieved to hear that.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[SeaBass]

this is off-topic (not that we couldn't all use a bit of change-of-topic at this point, haha, in fact, that's why i'm posting this) -- but reading 1 Corinthians 11, it appears to me that what Paul considered "the Lord's Supper" was not a ritualistic eating of a taste of unleavened bread and a few drops of wine, but a communal feast.
so i'd say that Coca-Cola[SUP]®[/SUP] and Pepsi[SUP]®[/SUP] and frankfurters are not outside the bounds of an acceptable meal to be shared and eaten in remembrance of the Lord's sacrificial atonement.

i'm a bit younger than you guys, so am going by hearsay, but it might have been Lemon's Superior Sparkling Ginger Ale[SUP]®[/SUP] --- though i am skeptical about the veracity of such a statement.

So when Christ took the unleaven bread and fruit of the vine and said "this do" (1 Cor 11:24,25) you would be doing what Christ said to do by using hot dogs and cokes and not unleaven bread and fruit of the vine?

 

[dcontroversal]

David was not a Christian and David did not follow NT worship as directed by God for Christ took all the OT, along with its carnal type of worship, out of the way. God does not change but there was a change in laws, Heb 7:12 "For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law."

Another absurd statement which disregards the fact that JESUS is found ALL through the O.T. Dude, your religious blindness astounds me.....!

 

[Siberian_Khatru]

Another absurd statement which disregards the fact that JESUS is found ALL through the O.T. Dude, your religious blindness astounds me.....!

Nearly every one of your posts I see is wrought with abrasiveness and arrogance. How burdensome it must be for you to have so much wisdom that it moves you to put down your brothers and sisters in Christ.

 

[SeaBass]

Did God command that Air Conditioning be installed in Churches?

Did God command that bathrooms be installed in Churches?

Did God command that wall to wall carpet be installed in Churches?

Did God command that in-door plumbing be installed in Churches?

Did God command that stained glass windows be installed in Churches?

Did God command that Baptisteries be installed in Churches?

Did God command that pews be installed in Churches?

Did God command that...................well, point made.............goodness............

Acts 20:7 it was God who brings the disciples together on the first day of the week. For Christians to come together as God requires, then Christians must physcially have a place to come together. God left it to the expediency of the Christians if that place has air cond., bathrooms, carpet, windows, etc

Just as in the great commission Jesus commanded the disciple to "go" but did not specify in that command as to how they were to go for He left it to their expediency to go by walking, horseback, ship, cars, planes, internet, etc. AS long as they obey by going Christ left up up to them as to how to go.


When God commanded Noah to build the ark, Noah could use tools, have help in building the ark as means of expediency in carrying out the command to build the ark, but Noah could not do anything to CHANGE that command.

When it comes to worship, God specifically command singing and that is not left up to man's expediency to change.

 

[dcontroversal]

Nearly every one of your posts I see is wrought with abrasiveness and arrogance. How burdensome it must be for you to have so much wisdom that it moves you to put down your brothers and sisters in Christ.

I suggest your read more and I have noticed that your post contain little to no truth...so does that make us even?

Not to mention...in order to be a brother in Christ you have to actually be born again and preach and teach the truth about biblical salvation instead of trusting into works and self....!

Go tell that to Jesus, John the Baptist, Paul, Elijah and others who had many controversial things to say.....IGNORANCE is not a bad word...just means you don't KNOW...so if I would have used STUPID then you would have a valid CLAIM..and if you don't like it...don't read what I write!

And a careful study will reveal that the majority of my posts are just fine without any abrasiveness...so does that make you a liar by stretching the truth.....!

 

[SeaBass]

I remember a hand full. but no where does it say David had hundreds of wives.....so your stretch of scripture was OPINION and not fact.....

Quote the verse that states that David had hundreds of wives.......!

2 Sam 5:13 David had many, many wives and concubines, (Solomon had 100's) the point being if David is the example the Christian is to follow then one could easily argue for polygamy using David as they can using David to argue the use of IM.

 

[posthuman]

So when Christ took the unleaven bread and fruit of the vine and said "this do" (1 Cor 11:24,25) you would be doing what Christ said to do by using hot dogs and cokes and not unleaven bread and fruit of the vine?

For in eating, each one goes ahead with his own meal. One goes hungry, another gets drunk.
(1 Corinthians 11:21)

15 grams of bread and 1.5 fluid ounces of wine don't constitute a "meal" to my understanding - and is hardly enough to keep one from going hungry, or to make one drunk.

in the upper room, they ate a full meal, don't you think? so when He says "as often as you do this" -- what exactly is the "this" He's referring to? they weren't all sitting at the table to have a tiny tasting rite, as far as i understand it.

In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying,
“This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.”
(1 Corinthians 11:25)

Paul says He took the cup "after supper" -- what's the connotation of "supper" to you? just a sip and a nibble?

So then, my brothers, when you come together to eat, wait for one another— if anyone is hungry, let him eat at home—so that when you come together it will not be for judgment.
(1 Corinthians 11:33-34)

Paul says "when you come together to eat" -- when you take ritual communion at church, does it count as "lunch" to you? do you count it as "supper" or a "meal" ? why would Paul be talking about this as though it were a pot-luck dinner where some people weren't sharing, if what they were calling 'the Lord's supper' was much less than even what anyone who isn't in a famine would call a light snack?

so yes, i think that whenever we eat together we should be honoring God with the meal, remembering Him as our bread and wine, that this is the Lord' supper, not a ceremonial rite, and i don't believe there is a command that we should limit our diets to unleavened bread and wine.
whether we eat bread and wine, or beans and cornbread & sweet tea together, it should be done in remembrance of Him.

 

[SeaBass]

Where did God command singing in the N.T. The two sets of verses that you use to promote no instruments are not directed at assembly capacity worship, but rather individuals as they go about their daily business....The Ephesians test uses subordinate clauses to show what is it like for and individual to be continually filled with the spirit.....and is not COMMANDED as a assembly capacity action in way of worship......!

Eph 5:18 "And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;"
Eph 5:19 "Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;"
Eph 5:20 "Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;"
Eph 5:21 "Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God."

"Be filled with the spirit" verse 18 is in the imperative mood. How does one obey this command to be filled with the spirit?
(Same is true in Col 3:16 "let the word of Christ dwell in you" is also imperative mood)


Paul gives the participle "singing" in both Eph 5;19 and Col 3;16 as one way to "be filled with the spirit/let Christ's word dwell in you". This participle becomes an imperative itself for it must be done to obey the imperatives to be "filled with the spirit/word dwell in you". Paul is speaking to congregations, plurality of people, "singing' being a plural participle therefore instructing the whole church not just one individual.

 

[posthuman]

David was not a Christian and David did not follow NT worship as directed by God for Christ took all the OT, along with its carnal type of worship, out of the way. God does not change but there was a change in laws, Heb 7:12 "For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law."

but my dear, playing music for God was not a law for David, but a free-will offering of praise, that God seemed to be quite pleased with. it was not commanded of him and not commanded of you -- Christ came to give you freedom, not stronger chains.

was that point completely lost on you?

 

[SeaBass]

Will worship is the folks who brag about how they obey God by their own "will" In context of they don't do this and do that...touch not, taste not ..handle not...basically "will worship" is legalism.

Will worship is worshipping as God has NOT prescribed. Instead of worshipping as God said man worships according to his own will.

 

[SeaBass]

The idea that there shouldn't be musical instruments in church is held by some Protestants that believe in the regulative principle. This was popular in Scotland in the 1800's, where the Campbell's were from, early leaders of the Restoration Movement, the historical root of a movement in the US which calls their churches 'Church of Christ' or 'Christian Church'.
Early Protestants modified Roman Catholic liturgy, trying to find Biblical justification for the components they kept or expanded, and doing away with parts for this they could not find Biblical support. Those who hold to the regulative principle believe they need to do only things the Bible instructs in church meetings.

The irony, here, is that there is actually a passage of scripture that says what to do in church that isn't paid much attention to. I Corinthians 14:26 shows us that 'every one of you' may sing a psalm, have a doctrine, tongue, revelation, interpretation, provided 'all things be done unto edifying.' There are specific instructions for speaking in tongues with interpretation, and specific instructions for prophets and others prophesying in church. Paul calls his instructions 'commandments of the Lord.'

The passage doesn't say have three hymns, prayer, offering, sermon by one preacher, hymns, and prayer. The indication is that there are multiple speakers in one church meeting.

As far as musical instruments go, this particular passage doesn't address it. It seems more to allow for solos than congregational singing. Though that doesn't mean congregational singing is forbidden. It was the practice to sing Psalms after the Lord's Supper 'congregationally', I've read, and the Lord did that with the disciples.
The Old Testament also teaches us that praising God to the sound of musical instruments is good. Revelation shows people with harps and the sound of harps in heaven. So it's not something evil.

It is weird that people will get so legalistic over something like musical instruments in church based on the fact that the instructions about them are in the Old Testament rather than New Testament scripture, if their church doesn't follow the commandments the Lord gave in the New Testament for church meetings. Some of the folks I've encountered who are against musical instruments are dead set allowing having tongues and interpretation or prophecies in church meetings like the Lord commands in I Corinthians 14.

The principle for not using IM comes from the bible and God's command to sing. Secular history will show the early church did not use IM but man, not GOd, made changes adding IM a couple or so centuries after the church began.


If "legalism" is an issue, then if I do not have to do what God's word says when it comes to singing, then I do not have to be "legalistic" and do anything God's word says.

 

[dcontroversal]

Eph 5:18 "And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;"
Eph 5:19 "Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;"
Eph 5:20 "Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;"
Eph 5:21 "Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God."

"Be filled with the spirit" verse 18 is in the imperative mood. How does one obey this command to be filled with the spirit?
(Same is true in Col 3:16 "let the word of Christ dwell in you" is also imperative mood)


Paul gives the participle "singing" in both Eph 5;19 and Col 3;16 as one way to "be filled with the spirit/let Christ's word dwell in you". This participle becomes an imperative itself for it must be done to obey the imperatives to be "filled with the spirit/word dwell in you". Paul is speaking to congregations, plurality of people, "singing' being a plural participle therefore instructing the whole church not just one individual.

It is present, passive imperative and shows a state of CONTINUAL ACTION...the subordinate clauses found sets forth the evidence of being continually filled...this has NOTHING at all to do with assembly capacity worship, but rather is indicative of going about one's daily business...nice try, but no cigar!

 

[posthuman]

Will worship is worshipping as God has NOT prescribed. Instead of worshipping as God said man worships according to his own will.

do you think David was engaged in "will worship" then?

the Psalms to you are a great big book of "will worship" - is that your stance?

because David wrote them not by proscription and commandment, but out of love.

 

[dcontroversal]

but my dear, playing music for God was not a law for David, but a free-will offering of praise, that God seemed to be quite pleased with. it was not commanded of him and not commanded of you -- Christ came to give you freedom, not stronger chains.

was that point completely lost on you?

Amen to this one as well.......!

 

[SeaBass]

We had a great worshipful weekend. God's people were singing Him praise.....we used instruments eek and my Lord and Savior Jesus, accepted our pathetic attempt at worshipping Him and drew close to us.

How do you know it was accepted? Based upon your feelings/opinion or upon the bible. You know there are 1000's of religious organizations out there that all contradict each other in what they believe. Can they all be right in their beliefs/worship to God while in contradiction?

 

[SeaBass]

Hey SeaBass, due to a conversation in another thread I got a question for you. What about wind instruments? Cause there's a few people I know, at Sunday lunch time they go down to old Jeb's cookshack for a bowl of his famous chili, and Sunday night all through the service they be farting. Would they get kicked out for playing wind instruments?

Has the pro-IM arguments been reduced to this?

 

[SeaBass]

I'm certain that billions of people all over the world are so relieved to hear that.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I doubt billions of people all over the world are Christians and therefore do not care what the bible commands about NT worship.