This is very true. Many have accepted a shallow concept of sin, where they are deceived into thinking they are sinless. Not actually understanding what sin really is. Strange is it may seem, usually the reason for this is that they have never sat under a teaching where the law is proclaimed in its fullness. Just like the pharisees they have gotten hooked up on external matters, on do's and dont's. A kind of moralists, who always focus on minor details, not seeing the big picture.
Can a Christian be sinless, perfect?
- Thread starter gerjozen
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
as father says often, through yahshua, and the immerser john, and the apostles and prophets,
unless father grants it from heaven, no man can receive, understand or grasp anything. that's why the heretics don't understand anything --- father doesn't grant them to comprehend any truth at all. (unless they repent and renounce completely their heresy and are willing to obey father in all things forever, no matter what the cost).(yes, there are only few who believe and do as father says).
picture in your mind's eye, or spirit, a father who has trained his babies in truth since conception (not just since birth).
see this father and his little children in the park together, hand in hand, joyously walking together
to that father, his little children are perfect (and truly so). if someone watches from across the water, and says anything bad about those children who were raised the right way, they are liars, and the truth is not in them, nor is any light in them.
if someone remarks to the father, "my, what perfect children you have there" , they are in the light, and the truth is with them.
_________________________________________________________
_________________________________________________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
if, however, an evil father raises his children to sin, lie, cheat and steal, but pretend to be good,
there is
very little hope for those children.
thus are such those who trust in the early chruch fathers or trust in the harlot perched in rome.
in the world, few find the path to life.
in rome, almost no one, although they may all be given the opportunity by sheer grace, same as anyone else.
it is because of the demons they trusted in , that they do not honor God or Jesus or the Word of God.
unless father grants it from heaven, no man can receive, understand or grasp anything. that's why the heretics don't understand anything --- father doesn't grant them to comprehend any truth at all. (unless they repent and renounce completely their heresy and are willing to obey father in all things forever, no matter what the cost).(yes, there are only few who believe and do as father says).
picture in your mind's eye, or spirit, a father who has trained his babies in truth since conception (not just since birth).
see this father and his little children in the park together, hand in hand, joyously walking together
to that father, his little children are perfect (and truly so). if someone watches from across the water, and says anything bad about those children who were raised the right way, they are liars, and the truth is not in them, nor is any light in them.
if someone remarks to the father, "my, what perfect children you have there" , they are in the light, and the truth is with them.
_________________________________________________________
_________________________________________________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
if, however, an evil father raises his children to sin, lie, cheat and steal, but pretend to be good,
there is
very little hope for those children.
thus are such those who trust in the early chruch fathers or trust in the harlot perched in rome.
in the world, few find the path to life.
in rome, almost no one, although they may all be given the opportunity by sheer grace, same as anyone else.
it is because of the demons they trusted in , that they do not honor God or Jesus or the Word of God.
K
Thank you, I really loved that... I haven't ever thought of it that way before.
And in response to the original question, I also like to think that to be perfect is perfectly impossible as humans, even as believers...but to be as near perfect as possible is a standard that I simply wish to live by. I won't lower that standard, just because being sinless is impossible... (I strife to, anyway)
And in response to the original question, I also like to think that to be perfect is perfectly impossible as humans, even as believers...but to be as near perfect as possible is a standard that I simply wish to live by. I won't lower that standard, just because being sinless is impossible... (I strife to, anyway)
Last edited by a moderator:
what about the very first gentiles in acts who were accepted by yahweh, yahshua and the apostles and the ekklesia.
before then it was not even acceptable for the Jews nor for the set apart immersed in yahshua Jewish Believers to even be seen with gentile sinners. >> "[SUP]27 [/SUP]As he talked with Cornelius, Peter went inside where he ·saw [[SUP]L [/SUP]found] many people gathered. [SUP]28 [/SUP]He said, “You people understand that it is against our law for Jewish people to associate with or visit anyone who is a ·foreigner [Gentile]."
what did cornelius do that was different from the pagan heathen sinners around him ?
(and different from the pagan heathen sinners today as well) .
before then it was not even acceptable for the Jews nor for the set apart immersed in yahshua Jewish Believers to even be seen with gentile sinners. >> "[SUP]27 [/SUP]As he talked with Cornelius, Peter went inside where he ·saw [[SUP]L [/SUP]found] many people gathered. [SUP]28 [/SUP]He said, “You people understand that it is against our law for Jewish people to associate with or visit anyone who is a ·foreigner [Gentile]."
what did cornelius do that was different from the pagan heathen sinners around him ?
(and different from the pagan heathen sinners today as well) .
V
You believe Jesus would ever contradict Himself? Remember the first rule of biblical interpretation: Context is everything.In Mark 10:18 from which you have lifted this quote, Jesus is forcing the young ruler with whom He is conversing to face the implications of calling Jesus "good," not only with regard to Jesus' goodness, but also with regard to his own. The young ruler shows himself to be "good" by every human test -- he is devoted to keeping the Law. His fellow Jews considered his wealth to be another measure of his goodness.
However, Jesus' pointed question here and His command that the young ruler renounce his wealth and follow Him (10:21) reveal that human standards of goodness are not God's. Jesus wasn't saying to anyone but the young man, "Give up your wealth and follow Me." He was convicting the young man before a huge crowd that the riches meant more to him than following God.
In Matthew 5:48, "be perfect" is not a command for sinlessness. Jesus spends the entire 26 verses beforehand lecturing the Jews on their to-the-letter adherence to the Law while not looking beyond the surface for the deeper meaning.
He says in vv. 21-26 that the Law against murder is broken if you have have animosity toward anyone, even if it is left unexpressed outside your own mind.
In vv. 27-30, He makes unequivocal comparison to looking with lust, and outright adultery. It is no different.
He lays low the Pharisees' willingness to grant divorce willy-nilly in vv. 31, 32, stating that unless adultery is involved, it is sin, not keeping the Law.
He refutes, in vv. 33-37 their teaching that a vow or an oath by God, or by the Temple, means more than a man's own word, saying that invoking the Almighty is sinfully laying hold of God when the responsibility is our own.
He cites the ancient Law of "an eye for an eye" in v. 38 but negates it in vv. 39-42 for those situations in which you place your own pride and rights above the need of others to see Christ in you.
He extends the Law of Love far beyond being practiced within your own spiritual community, but states, in vv. 43-47, that the whole world is your community.
Then He says "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." As an old pastor of mine said time and time again, "When there is a 'therefore' it is incumbent upon us that we look at see what it is there for." In this case, it is "there for" telling us that all these things which the Jews have thought they have done perfectly according to the Law didn't even begin to scratch the surface. They have followed the letter, generally, but not the intent.
They have done the least amount possible to fulfill the obligation, and Jesus was telling them they have not even touched upon the obligation.
God does these things always. He is "complete" in these actions -- which is the meaning of the Greek teleioß -- transliterated teleois -- meaning "brought to an end." Jesus spoke this word on the cross: To Telestai -- "It is finished!" We are to be "finished" well, made complete in Christ, who is God and who as heavenly Father is also complete in the way He relates to all men, whether through common grace to unbelievers or through particular grace to believers.
He is consistent. He never does anything differently. Jesus says "Be perfect ... " -- do everything consistently, not just the bare minimum, which is no minimum at all.
Last edited:
My dear beloved friends, brothers & sisters in Christ of whom I came to love so dearly, I read all these powerful comments about Christ going to the cross making us perfect in the sight of God, but have we noticed that Christ expected perfection from us even before He went to the cross, before He said it is finished, they now stand complete in Me?
Why didn't He said, don't worry, soon you will be perfect when I go to the cross.
But instead He said be perfect now even before Im going to the cross.
So the perfection that He requires of us must be a power that He knows lies within our ability.
Did we know that God secured our perfection long before Calvary because the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world (Rev.13:8) and our names were written in the Lamb's Book of Life, not from Calvary but from the foundation of the world (Rev.17:8)
Peter said that the Lamb was foreordained before the foundation of the world (1Pet.1:19-20)
Foreordained before the foundation of the world
Slain from the foundation of the world
Manifested in the last times as the Lamb
The Lord God said, "As I have thought, so shall it come to pass; As I have decided, so shall it stand"
Our Salvation was determined before the foundation of the world
Our Redemption was sealed from the foundation of the world
Our perfection is only manifested in these last times which was determined before the foundation of the world in the Lamb of God.
Why didn't He said, don't worry, soon you will be perfect when I go to the cross.
But instead He said be perfect now even before Im going to the cross.
So the perfection that He requires of us must be a power that He knows lies within our ability.
Did we know that God secured our perfection long before Calvary because the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world (Rev.13:8) and our names were written in the Lamb's Book of Life, not from Calvary but from the foundation of the world (Rev.17:8)
Peter said that the Lamb was foreordained before the foundation of the world (1Pet.1:19-20)
Foreordained before the foundation of the world
Slain from the foundation of the world
Manifested in the last times as the Lamb
The Lord God said, "As I have thought, so shall it come to pass; As I have decided, so shall it stand"
Our Salvation was determined before the foundation of the world
Our Redemption was sealed from the foundation of the world
Our perfection is only manifested in these last times which was determined before the foundation of the world in the Lamb of God.
V
Have you not read?
Romans 3 NASB
11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."
13 "THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE, WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING," "THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS ";
14 "WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS";
15 "THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,
16 DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,
17 AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN."
18 "THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES."
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;
20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin. [My emphasis added]
11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."
13 "THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE, WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING," "THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS ";
14 "WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS";
15 "THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,
16 DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,
17 AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN."
18 "THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES."
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;
20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin. [My emphasis added]
I was perfectly sinless for about 6 hrs today.
But I was asleep, so I couldn't really revel in it.
2 Corinthians 5:6-8
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
[SUP]7 [/SUP](For we walk by faith, not by sight
[SUP]8 [/SUP]We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
But I was asleep, so I couldn't really revel in it.
2 Corinthians 5:6-8
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
[SUP]7 [/SUP](For we walk by faith, not by sight
[SUP]8 [/SUP]We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
The human being is made up of three parts and the bible says that the spirits of just men were made perfect so I would say that statement you made is very true if you are talking about the flesh.
Romans 7:22-23
king James version(kJv)
22.)For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23.)But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Hebrews 12:23
king james version(kJv)
23.)To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Romans 7:22-23
king James version(kJv)
22.)For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23.)But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Hebrews 12:23
king james version(kJv)
23.)To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
It's all good. In regards to Job.. just look at the Strong's numbers above the word perfect. It will give you definitions along the lines of completeness and maturity, lacking nothing necessary for completeness.
The biblical version of perfect.. is different to how we like to interpret now as being without sin.
Anyhoo.. no offense taken.
The biblical version of perfect.. is different to how we like to interpret now as being without sin.
Anyhoo.. no offense taken.
We are so quick to become defensive when our spirituality gets tried.
We''ll use all kinds of Scripture to cover up our nakedness.
Everyone is entitled to believe what he/she likes, all we can do is respect one another's opinions, that's all.
Its true we can look at the definitions of the Hebrew & Greek words and translate it as it suits us.
But let me give my opinion as to our perfection.
Now Christ took away our sin right, "There is the Lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the worlds"
So we all agree on that. But what does that really mean?
We allow ourselves to be deceived by the devil.
Now picture this, we were carrying that heavy bag of rubbish of sin on our backs.
ILLUSTRATION
God now comes, take it off our backs and places it on His Son.
"He hath made Him to be sin for us" (Gal.5:21)
"God sending His Son in the likeness of sinful flesh" (Rom.8:3)
"Who His own self bare our sins in His own body" (1Pet.2:24)
THE RESULT
God taking away our sin from us now means, "being made Free from sin" (Rom.6:18, 22)
God took away our sin, unfortunately not our sinful nature, but He gave us something to control that sinful nature, His Holy Spirit. Sad to say but we sometimes are too lazy to control our sinful nature and rather cover up our laziness with all kinds of Scripture as a protection against our weaknesses.
THE DIFFERENCE
What sin did Christ came to die for? Of course we will say sin is sin, what's the difference.
Scriptures says that we all have sinned (Rom.3:23), even the little new born babe, but even the embryo, fetus are reckoned as sinners, even the those that are as a sperm, in your loins is considered a sinner, thanks to one man, Adam
"..as by one man sin entered into the world" (Rom.5:12)
It was this man's sin that was taking us to Hell fire, this man's sin that was causing us to fall short of the glory of God. (Rom.3:23)
Adam's sin is what we would call, Inherited Sin.It was placed on us without choice.
What we do wrong in this body is a result of our sinful nature which causes Personal Sin, that is reckoned not after the "similitude of Adam's transgression"
The 1st Adam failed and all else who was born from him got contaminated with his sin.
The 2nd Adam passed the test therefore whoever is born of Him (1Jn.3:9), stands free from sin before God.
Our Inherited Sin is Adam's sin, known as "sin that are past" (Rom.3:25), "old sin" (2Pet.1:9), that Christ came to take away".
We may ask the question, what about my Personal Sin that I commit after He has forgiven what Adam brought over us?
Christ died for our sin, whether past, present or future.
But if Christ has died for future sin that might be committed in the future, does that give us a license to sin, "shall we continue in sin?" "God forbid"
THE 3 IF'S
1st If. "If we say we have no sin", of which we will be proven wrong from Ps.51:5 & Rom.3:23.
This means that even the still born child will die as a sinner, but that does not mean that that child will go lost.
Remember that Adam's sin is placed on the child with no choice, and there was no personal sin committed on the child's part. If then the child should say then, "I have not sinned", then it would make God a liar (1Jn1:10)
To claim that the child died being not a sinner is unscriptural. (Ps.51:5; Rom.3:23)
2nd If."If we confess our sins"
The Apostle uses the word, "If" which is an Indefinite Particle.
It is man's choice if he thinks it necessary to receive God's forgiveness.
3rd If. "If any man sin" This is the Aorist Subjunctive
The Apostle is mentioning an issue of which there is some doubt that it might happen, which is suppose not to happen since we are born of God. (1Jn.3:9; 5:18)
BUT, if we do fall into sin through weakness, unintentionally, ignorantly, then we have an Advocate pleading our case.
ADAM, EVE & THE SERPENT
God designed life in such a way that its impossible to go into sin just like that.
It all starts 1st with a temptation. Scripture says that Eve got tempted by the devil.
Whats the old saying, "You can lead the horse to the...."
Not God nor the devil can force us to do right or wrong, we were given Free Choice by God.Scripture says that Eve got tempted, not forced into sin against her will.
When all 3, Adam, Eve & the Serpent was called on to take the witness stand and plead.....,
they both tried to shift the blame, running from taking responsibility, but had to confess, "and I [Personal Pronoun, no one else but me] did eat", guilty as charged
The man was pointing a finger at the woman, the woman was pointing a finger at the serpent, and unfortunately there was no one for the serpent to point a finger at. Its interesting that Satan was never asked to plead, he was just condemned.
Temptation takes us through a process of six steps before it can become sin in us. (Js.1:14-15)
If we can learn how to deal with our temptation, its possible to live without sin from day to day
Scripture says that Christ was tempted, not giving in to sin, but by overcoming temptation.
Sin is yielding to temptation
We''ll use all kinds of Scripture to cover up our nakedness.
Everyone is entitled to believe what he/she likes, all we can do is respect one another's opinions, that's all.
Its true we can look at the definitions of the Hebrew & Greek words and translate it as it suits us.
But let me give my opinion as to our perfection.
Now Christ took away our sin right, "There is the Lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the worlds"
So we all agree on that. But what does that really mean?
We allow ourselves to be deceived by the devil.
Now picture this, we were carrying that heavy bag of rubbish of sin on our backs.
ILLUSTRATION
God now comes, take it off our backs and places it on His Son.
"He hath made Him to be sin for us" (Gal.5:21)
"God sending His Son in the likeness of sinful flesh" (Rom.8:3)
"Who His own self bare our sins in His own body" (1Pet.2:24)
THE RESULT
God taking away our sin from us now means, "being made Free from sin" (Rom.6:18, 22)
God took away our sin, unfortunately not our sinful nature, but He gave us something to control that sinful nature, His Holy Spirit. Sad to say but we sometimes are too lazy to control our sinful nature and rather cover up our laziness with all kinds of Scripture as a protection against our weaknesses.
THE DIFFERENCE
What sin did Christ came to die for? Of course we will say sin is sin, what's the difference.
Scriptures says that we all have sinned (Rom.3:23), even the little new born babe, but even the embryo, fetus are reckoned as sinners, even the those that are as a sperm, in your loins is considered a sinner, thanks to one man, Adam
"..as by one man sin entered into the world" (Rom.5:12)
It was this man's sin that was taking us to Hell fire, this man's sin that was causing us to fall short of the glory of God. (Rom.3:23)
Adam's sin is what we would call, Inherited Sin.It was placed on us without choice.
What we do wrong in this body is a result of our sinful nature which causes Personal Sin, that is reckoned not after the "similitude of Adam's transgression"
The 1st Adam failed and all else who was born from him got contaminated with his sin.
The 2nd Adam passed the test therefore whoever is born of Him (1Jn.3:9), stands free from sin before God.
Our Inherited Sin is Adam's sin, known as "sin that are past" (Rom.3:25), "old sin" (2Pet.1:9), that Christ came to take away".
We may ask the question, what about my Personal Sin that I commit after He has forgiven what Adam brought over us?
Christ died for our sin, whether past, present or future.
But if Christ has died for future sin that might be committed in the future, does that give us a license to sin, "shall we continue in sin?" "God forbid"
THE 3 IF'S
1st If. "If we say we have no sin", of which we will be proven wrong from Ps.51:5 & Rom.3:23.
This means that even the still born child will die as a sinner, but that does not mean that that child will go lost.
Remember that Adam's sin is placed on the child with no choice, and there was no personal sin committed on the child's part. If then the child should say then, "I have not sinned", then it would make God a liar (1Jn1:10)
To claim that the child died being not a sinner is unscriptural. (Ps.51:5; Rom.3:23)
2nd If."If we confess our sins"
The Apostle uses the word, "If" which is an Indefinite Particle.
It is man's choice if he thinks it necessary to receive God's forgiveness.
3rd If. "If any man sin" This is the Aorist Subjunctive
The Apostle is mentioning an issue of which there is some doubt that it might happen, which is suppose not to happen since we are born of God. (1Jn.3:9; 5:18)
BUT, if we do fall into sin through weakness, unintentionally, ignorantly, then we have an Advocate pleading our case.
ADAM, EVE & THE SERPENT
God designed life in such a way that its impossible to go into sin just like that.
It all starts 1st with a temptation. Scripture says that Eve got tempted by the devil.
Whats the old saying, "You can lead the horse to the...."
Not God nor the devil can force us to do right or wrong, we were given Free Choice by God.Scripture says that Eve got tempted, not forced into sin against her will.
When all 3, Adam, Eve & the Serpent was called on to take the witness stand and plead.....,
they both tried to shift the blame, running from taking responsibility, but had to confess, "and I [Personal Pronoun, no one else but me] did eat", guilty as charged
The man was pointing a finger at the woman, the woman was pointing a finger at the serpent, and unfortunately there was no one for the serpent to point a finger at. Its interesting that Satan was never asked to plead, he was just condemned.
Temptation takes us through a process of six steps before it can become sin in us. (Js.1:14-15)
If we can learn how to deal with our temptation, its possible to live without sin from day to day
Scripture says that Christ was tempted, not giving in to sin, but by overcoming temptation.
Sin is yielding to temptation