A woman as a Pastor? Does it make it right if there is a need for pastors?

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Angela53510

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Jan 24, 2011
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I'm trying really hard to understand where you're coming from. I went to Blue Letter Bible and got the following.



Blue Letter Bible says that Diakonos is a masculine/feminine noun. It means one who executes the commands of another, especially of a master.

The word can be used to say:

  1. A servant with no office.
  2. The office of Deacon in a church.
  3. A waiter or someone who serves food and drink.

My question to you is why do you think Roman's 16:1 should be translated as number 2? What is your thought process behind this?
Why do you think it should not?

I did go to my Greek-English Lexicon, by Danke and Bauer, and you are right about diakonos, despite the lexical masculine gender, being used for both male and female.

"Συνίστημι δὲ ὑμῖν Φοίβην τὴν ἀδελφὴν ἡμῶν, οὖσαν καὶ διάκονον τῆς ἐκκλησίας τῆς ἐν Κεγχρεαῖς." Romans 16:1

"I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a servantof the church in Cenchreae." HCSB

In the case of Romans 16:1, the usage includes οὖσαν, (ousan) which is the present active participle of Eimi, in the accusative, feminine. So "ousan" is referring to Phoebe, as a diakonos, used as a relative pronoun, and best translated as the word, "who," making the subordinate clause "who is a deacon of the church of Cenchraea."

In addition, the fact that Paul names her church where she is a deacon, shows she is a leader in that specific church.

Danke and Bauer have extended definitions of diakonos, as follows.

1. One who serves as an intermediary, agent or courier.
2. One who get something done at the behest of a superior, an assistant

Danke specifically mentions Phoebe in Romans 16:1, and and says this commendation goes beyond those of cultic attendants, whether male or female.

Thus, by reason of Paul specifically mentioning her in the text, with her church shows she is not merely a servant, but an ordained deacon, whom Paul is commending by name, along with the others he recognizes in Romans 16.

My other reasoning would be that good exegetics requires words used in the same way, be translated the same way. In Romans 16:1, Phoebe is singled out, just as Paul in other places in his writings singles out himself, Timothy, Ephraphas and others and uses the word diakonos. Just because the gender of Phoebe is female, doesn't change the definition of the word, unless you have an agenda (say, women not being pastors) to push!

Of course, my view of women being allowed to minister as pastors, does not rest on one proof text. But there is no doubt that Phoebe is a deacon in the fullest sense of the word, a leader who serves the church!
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
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For those who asked "where did GOD specifically ORDAIN A WOMAN into a leadership position?" and argued if Deborah was set on her position by God, here is a better example explicitly from God's mouth, also in the less liberal Old Testament:

Micah 6:4
For I brought thee up out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed thee out of the house of servants; and I sent before thee Moses, Aaron, and Miriam.

God Himself sending Miriam ("send" is also used for apostleship -Matthew 10:16 - and as here, means to choose one for a mission and giving them proper authority). God sent Miriam to lead ("before thee") the nation of Israel, together with Moses and Aaron. She was, therefore, a shepherd of His sheep together with her brothers. This whole verse with the entire Biblical context suggests that males are preferable for leadership positions in general, but we see from this example that God will use women occassionally, as He sees fit.
 
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You're confusing Deacon (the office) with deacon (the word) i.e. servant or helper. The office of Deacon in the church is held by a deacon (servant or helper). That's why the office is called "Deacon"... because it employees deacons.

I hope this helps.
The next thing you know is he'll say those who prophesies aren't prophets, either.:rolleyes:
 
Aug 15, 2009
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From where I sit, it seems that if we could prove the woman usurping authority over the man was family only, the naysayer's argument would fall apart. But there is still another point in scripture that proves the leadership issue to be false.

WHO in the New Testament used his authority over another? Nowhere is it written that it actually happened, except in 3John:

3 John 1:9-10 (KJV) [SUP]9 [/SUP]I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not. [SUP]10 [/SUP]Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church.

Diotrephes is the only one that usurped authority in the NT, & when he did, it was totally wrong.

You see, Neither Jesus nor the apostles EVER taught that christians in any ministry had the right to use authority over other christians. The truth is, the OPPOSITE was taught:

Mark 9:35 (KJV) And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all.

Mark 10:42-45 (KJV) [SUP]42 [/SUP]But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them. [SUP]43 [/SUP]But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: [SUP]44 [/SUP]And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all. [SUP]45 [/SUP]For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

So as we can see, this "usurping authority" by the women would have been in the family unit, & not the church, for none of the leaders were allowed to do it.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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Why do you think it should not?

I did go to my Greek-English Lexicon, by Danke and Bauer, and you are right about diakonos, despite the lexical masculine gender, being used for both male and female.

"Συνίστημι δὲ ὑμῖν Φοίβην τὴν ἀδελφὴν ἡμῶν, οὖσαν καὶ διάκονον τῆς ἐκκλησίας τῆς ἐν Κεγχρεαῖς." Romans 16:1

"I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a servantof the church in Cenchreae." HCSB

In the case of Romans 16:1, the usage includes οὖσαν, (ousan) which is the present active participle of Eimi, in the accusative, feminine. So "ousan" is referring to Phoebe, as a diakonos, used as a relative pronoun, and best translated as the word, "who," making the subordinate clause "who is a deacon of the church of Cenchraea."

In addition, the fact that Paul names her church where she is a deacon, shows she is a leader in that specific church.

Danke and Bauer have extended definitions of diakonos, as follows.

1. One who serves as an intermediary, agent or courier.
2. One who get something done at the behest of a superior, an assistant

Danke specifically mentions Phoebe in Romans 16:1, and and says this commendation goes beyond those of cultic attendants, whether male or female.

Thus, by reason of Paul specifically mentioning her in the text, with her church shows she is not merely a servant, but an ordained deacon, whom Paul is commending by name, along with the others he recognizes in Romans 16.

My other reasoning would be that good exegetics requires words used in the same way, be translated the same way. In Romans 16:1, Phoebe is singled out, just as Paul in other places in his writings singles out himself, Timothy, Ephraphas and others and uses the word diakonos. Just because the gender of Phoebe is female, doesn't change the definition of the word, unless you have an agenda (say, women not being pastors) to push!

Of course, my view of women being allowed to minister as pastors, does not rest on one proof text. But there is no doubt that Phoebe is a deacon in the fullest sense of the word, a leader who serves the church!
You know why I think it should not... the KJV doesn't say deacon. No offence, I'm not trying to derail the thread lol.
I won't argue the points you made, I don't agree with them but I see where you're coming from.

Paul makes mention of Phebe's church and that proves Phebe's a leader in the church. There's no way to argue against that.
Danke says Pauls commendation to Phebe goes beyond those of cultic attendants so that make her a deacon. No way to argue against that either.

I think I could argue against the following though.
My other reasoning would be that good exegetics requires words used in the same way, be translated the same way. In Romans 16:1, Phoebe is singled out, just as Paul in other places in his writings singles out himself, Timothy, Ephraphas and others and uses the word diakonos. Just because the gender of Phoebe is female, doesn't change the definition of the word, unless you have an agenda (say, women not being pastors) to push!
I only see three places in the bible where diakonos is translated deacon.... none of them mention Paul, Timothy, Ephrapas and others. Which verses are you talking about?
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
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For those who asked "where did GOD specifically ORDAIN A WOMAN into a leadership position?" and argued if Deborah was set on her position by God, here is a better example explicitly from God's mouth, also in the less liberal Old Testament:

Micah 6:4
For I brought thee up out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed thee out of the house of servants; and I sent before thee Moses, Aaron, and Miriam.

God Himself sending Miriam ("send" is also used for apostleship -Matthew 10:16 - and as here, means to choose one for a mission and giving them proper authority). God sent Miriam to lead ("before thee") the nation of Israel, together with Moses and Aaron. She was, therefore, a shepherd of His sheep together with her brothers. This whole verse with the entire Biblical context suggests that males are preferable for leadership positions in general, but we see from this example that God will use women occassionally, as He sees fit.
SW, do you believe that Miriam was ordained exacty the same way as was Aaron? Do you believe the ordained levites also consisted of women and not solely of men? If you believe that, can you show one single scripture in support for that position? Again, this is not an issue of what women can or can not do, it is all about the order that God has laid down, in His creation even.
 
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SoulWeaver

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Oct 25, 2014
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SW, do you believe that the ordained levites also consisted of women and not solely of men? If you believe that, can you show one single scripture in support for that position? Again, this is not an issue of what women can or can not do, it is all about the order that God has laid down, in His creation even.
Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Now the priesthood is through Jesus and the believers of Jesus. The ministration is not of death like in the OT but forgiveness of sins. This is the atonement through the blood of Jesus. Forgive as you have been forgiven.

1 Peter 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
--- women also offer these spiritual sacrifices no less than men.

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
---both men and women

P.S. forgot this too:

Regarding offering of acceptable sacrifices:
Leviticus 3:6 And if his offering for a sacrifice of peace offering unto the LORD be of the flock; male or female, he shall offer it without blemish.

And finally:
Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Hope this helped explain my position.
 
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tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
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You know why I think it should not... the KJV doesn't say deacon. No offence, I'm not trying to derail the thread lol.
I won't argue the points you made, I don't agree with them but I see where you're coming from.

Paul makes mention of Phebe's church and that proves Phebe's a leader in the church. There's no way to argue against that.
Danke says Pauls commendation to Phebe goes beyond those of cultic attendants so that make her a deacon. No way to argue against that either.

I think I could argue against the following though.

I only see three places in the bible where diakonos is translated deacon.... none of them mention Paul, Timothy, Ephrapas and others. Which verses are you talking about?
Just an input here. As I see this, its very much about how to understand the "red thread" in the Bible, to see what is principally what God wants us to do/have and to see what are examples of what God allowed given certain situations. Not seldom uniquely so. If one want to look for examples in the Bible in support of something that one advocates, which may still well not be what is God's will, then one can do so at the cost of going at least into error or worse. One may for example want to justify doing as Hosea did with his women, since there is an "example" of it in the Bible. Or can argue it is ok with a little genocide, since we have example of same in the Bible. Etc. And so it goes on. That's why I think it better to not only always look to context but, also, in as far as that is possible, look to the Bible as a whole on each and every controversial topic. Because...there are scriptures which, for example, seems to deny the trinity and the deity of Christ, taken a selective scripture reading of example form is given. However in the light of contextual reading and the entirety of the scriptures on the matter and the Bible as a whole are these would be "seemingly" support for such claims really correct? Is the Bible contradicting itself more than (for us "human beings") seemingly? Is Jesus contradicting Moses? Is Paul contradicting Jesus? Is Paul contradicting the other apostles? I'd say, no. So, we need all biblical statements about whatever controversy we come across to harmonize with each other rather than having conflicting and contradicting disharmony explained away by not the least relative ethics etc.
 
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Just an input here. As I see this, its very much about how to understand the "red thread" in the Bible, to see what is principally what God wants us to do/have and to see what are examples of what God allowed given certain situations. Not seldom uniquely so. If one want to look for examples in the Bible in support of something that one advocates, which may still well not be what is God's will, then one can do so at the cost of going at least into error or worse. One may for example want to justify doing as Hosea did with his women, since there is an "example" of it in the Bible. Or can argue it is ok with a little genocide, since we have example of same in the Bible. Etc. And so it goes on. That's why I think it better to not only always look to context but, also, in as far as that is possible, look to the Bible as a whole on each and every controversial topic. Because...there are scriptures which, for example, seems to deny the trinity and the deity of Christ, taken a selective scripture reading of example form is given. However in the light of contextual reading and the entirety of the scriptures on the matter and the Bible as a whole are these would be "seemingly" support for such claims really correct? Is the Bible contradicting itself more than (for us "human beings") seemingly? Is Jesus contradicting Moses? Is Paul contradicting Jesus? Is Paul contradicting the other apostles? I'd say, no. So, we need all biblical statements about whatever controversy we come across to harmonize with each other rather than having conflicting and contradicting disharmony explained away by not the least relative ethics etc.
There are no conflicts in the bible. The only conflicts exist in the readers mind, basically misunderstanding scripture.
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
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SW, you used the scripture about Moses, Aaron and Miriam as a would be proof text for Miriam being ordained (you replied me very quick so your quote of my first response to you didn't include my final minute edit saying: do you believe that Miriam was ordained exacty the same way as was Aaron? then followed by: Do you believe the ordained levites also consisted of women and not solely of men? There is an important distinction to be made regarding ordination. Now you are basically going into the NT texts and stressing differences between it and OT. I shall briefly look into this.

Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Now the priesthood is through Jesus and the believers of Jesus. The ministration is not of death like in the OT but forgiveness of sins. This is the atonement through the blood of Jesus. Forgive as you have been forgiven.
The basic change is that the priesthood is now of the order of Melchizedek, since Christ is of the Order of Melchizedek. The law has not changed in that sense so that now women are ordained into the priesthood. Only in one way has the law "changed", that it is now under Christ's Melchizedek priesthood, with all the sacrificial laws completed and fulfilled in Him.

Peter 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
--- women also offer these spiritual sacrifices no less than men.
Noone has claimed that they do not do so. For me the question at hand is about ordination. That scripture has no proof of women being ordained into any offices, as were men.

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
---both men and women
Do you think the crowd he spoke to, primarily jews, understood him as to mean that now it is ok with ordaining women?

P.S. forgot this too:

Regarding offering of acceptable sacrifices:
Leviticus 3:6 And if his offering for a sacrifice of peace offering unto the LORD be of the flock; male or female, he shall offer it without blemish.
Yes. Not sure what you want to say with this. The lamb of God however was male. Hope you agree with that. :)

And finally:
Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Hope this helped explain my position.
Yes, this is the key verse for all who are in favor of female ordination. This verse is used to justify a lot of strange stuff these days. That verse has however nothing to do with ordination at all, it only speaks about our position in Christ Jesus.
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
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@tribesman:

I have posted really clear scriptures how and why in NT women are priesthood, alongside men, and the evidence of change of priesthood. This way was not possible in the OT because Jesus had not yet come. What is a job of a priest? To bring up sacrifices to God and atone the sins of the people, and Jesus made our sacrifices acceptable (male and female - we are the sacrifices) and enabled us to forgive in His name and wash our brother in forgiveness 7x77. Men were priests in the OT for the promise that God (the Bridegroom, He) would provide the sacrifice and atonement for men and salvation would come from God and not men - the congregation (the Bride, she). Now when it has been fulfilled, we are all one in Jesus and Jesus lives in us. Jesus is the authority we live under, and the covering because He covered our sins.

Also, the change that was brought about does not change the husband-wife relationship. But it does affect God-woman relationship because Jesus gets into the picture.

I still wholeheartedly believe men of God should be given preference as they in general make better leaders and God Himself wants them to carry the burden of responsibility in most cases. But I would not want to judge a female preacher or a leader because she very well might be ordained, as well as Miriam has been ordained by God to lead the whole nation together with her brothers, as demonstrated clearly with the Scriptures I sent. My point is yes men are preferred, and I have no personal leading nor desire to be a pastor myself, but I would refrain from limiting God about whom He chooses to use. Even the Old Testament is full of examples of God using women.

Disagreement is fine, but for the sake of arguing your point you guys have been even claiming that female prophets whom the Word of God calls prophets were not actually prophets ordained by God... or now you compare female preachers with promoting genocide... to me, that is upsetting. You might want to rethink those words.

Supposing that is one of those "agree to disagree" moments and it is best to leave the discussion in a healthful manner. Peace of God to you.
 
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Reborn

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Nov 16, 2014
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I still wholeheartedly believe men of God should be given preference as they in general make better leaders .....
In theory.
At this point in history though?.......not so much.:(
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
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In theory.
At this point in history though?.......not so much.:(
Not sure what you're trying to say. I submit to God and my husband. Nowhere in the Bible it says I should submit to every man. I dont usurp any man though. I'm not a church leader of any kind. And this is not a pulpit, we're all just discussing. If you have something against me, go ahead PM me and explain it clearly.
 
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Reborn

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Nov 16, 2014
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Not sure what you're trying to say. I submit to God and my husband. Nowhere in the Bible it says I should submit to every man. This is not a pulpit, we're all just discussing.
Men as world leaders or preachers?......not so much.
Doctrine/teaching has gotten so screwed up since the cross, that it's better to fellowship in small groups.

Just my opinion.

2000 years from Adam to Noah.......the flood.
2000 years from Noah to the cross....a small remnant.
2000 years since the cross......until .....now.

You can bet we are currently in the same exact same situation SW..........very few who follow sound doctrine.
So who should teach?
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
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Men as world leaders or preachers?......not so much.
Doctrine/teaching has gotten so screwed up since the cross, that it's better to fellowship in small groups.

Just my opinion.

2000 years from Adam to Noah.......the flood.
2000 years from Noah to the cross....a small remnant.
2000 years since the cross......until .....now.

You can bet we are currently in the same exact same situation SW..........very few who follow sound doctrine.
So who should teach?
Forgive me for misunderstanding of what you wanted to say.
Yeah the situation is messed up... Amos 8:11
God help us all.
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
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@tribesman:

I have posted really clear scriptures how and why in NT women are priesthood, alongside men, and the evidence of change of priesthood. This way was not possible in the OT because Jesus had not yet come. What is a job of a priest? To bring up sacrifices to God and atone the sins of the people, and Jesus made our sacrifices acceptable (male and female - we are the sacrifices) and enabled us to forgive in His name and wash our brother in forgiveness 7x77. Men were priests in the OT for the promise that God (the Bridegroom, He) would provide the sacrifice and atonement for men and salvation would come from God and not men - the congregation (the Bride, she). Now when it has been fulfilled, we are all one in Jesus and Jesus lives in us. Jesus is the authority we live under, and the covering because He covered our sins.
Your scriptures are not clear for the idea that women are ordained into the priesthood as are men. The position you take have Paul flatly contradicting himself, and have him also contradicting Christ and Moses. Of course all apostles followed the same principles and they upheld this "tradition" in their teachings. So I advocate the harmony of scripture in contrast to those who have a disharmonous understanding of scripture. The far fetched and wrong conclusion that all too many make in our day regarding this matter is usually based upon selective "example" scripture reading with the result of choice of preference, when ending up in conflict and contrast. Usually its falsely said Paul's ruling regarding headship and order of authority was something only locally applied for the corinthian or ephesian milieus of the day, even though Paul stated that it was a general rule applied in all churches. This is extremely poor and contrasting exegesis leading to several grave errors often accompanied by relative ethics.


Also, the change that was brought about does not change the husband-wife relationship. But it does affect God-woman relationship because Jesus gets into the picture.
Not clear what you mean with this. How so is it changed? Btw Jesus was always in the picture, also in the OT. The Saints of old faithfully expecting His coming. The law and prophets testifying of Him.

I still wholeheartedly believe men of God should be given preference as they in general make better leaders and God Himself wants them to carry the burden of responsibility in most cases. But I would not want to judge a female preacher or a leader because she very well might be ordained, as well as Miriam has been ordained by God to lead the whole nation together with her brothers, as demonstrated clearly with the Scriptures I sent. My point is yes men are preferred, and I have no personal leading nor desire to be a pastor myself, but I would refrain from limiting God about whom He chooses to use. Even the Old Testament is full of examples of God using women.
No. You could not give the scriptural proof that Miriam was ordained in the same way as was Aaron. Yet you are pressing on to that point, because you are assuming it and reading it into the text, based upon a pre-conceived idea of yours. You do not maybe understand in full how I mean when I oppose this. I mean that there is a difference, in the set of headship order, which is actually based upon the order of creation (1Cor.11), as to make a distinction who is to be ordained by way of laying on of hands etc, where men are exclusively to be set apart. This has little to do with qualification itself, it has more to do with order and discipline. We either respect this order, or we do not. We either acknowledge that Paul's instructions about this really are (based on) the commandments of the Lord, or we are ignorant about it. There can be no other ways around this. Just as there is an order where some, not all, believers are ordained as pastors and overseers, although basically all believers can, situation given, serve as such. The refomers affirmed the priesthood of all believers, but were yet very careful not to make chaos regarding respecting the order of how the church was to be governed and that some chosen men were officially set apart especially for such service. See 1Cor.12:28-30.

Disagreement is fine, but for the sake of arguing your point you guys have been even claiming that female prophets whom the Word of God calls prophets were not actually prophets ordained by God... or now you compare female preachers with promoting genocide... to me, that is upsetting. You might want to rethink those words. Supposing that is one of those "agree to disagree" moments and it is best to leave the discussion in a healthful manner.
I gave examples of how selective bible reading and example searching for whatever one wishes to advocate really can lead someone very much astray. It was not intended to upset anyone. But if you want to look at the heated moments of this discussion you might as well be fair and see how the advocates of female clergy have called us who opposed same various names, accusing us of lessening the value of women, of wanting to lord ourselves over women and many more such things. Such that makes a serious discussion more or less impossible. But I do not count you among those who have done so.

Peace of God to you.
And also to you.
 

presidente

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May 29, 2013
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Honestly, I don't see a clear-cut case against women pastors, but I do see a case in scripture against women overseers.

"Pastor" is a descriptive term. It could be that an unordained man without any particular official authority in the church could be a 'pastor and teacher', since it is a gift. But overseers were specifically appointed to pastor. The apostles laid hands on them. The Bible says that the overseer has to be a man, a woman woman man. Look up the word for husband there and it means man.
 
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Honestly, I don't see a clear-cut case against women pastors, but I do see a case in scripture against women overseers.

"Pastor" is a descriptive term. It could be that an unordained man without any particular official authority in the church could be a 'pastor and teacher', since it is a gift. But overseers were specifically appointed to pastor. The apostles laid hands on them. The Bible says that the overseer has to be a man, a woman woman man. Look up the word for husband there and it means man.
Jeremiah 3:15: "And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding (KJV)."

How does the Hebrew word for pastors not mean overseer?
 
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do you believe that Miriam was ordained exacty the same way as was Aaron?
Talk about being obsessive-compulsive with respect to the word ordained.

I don't see where in the OT the Hebrew word for ordained means anything more than appointed, as in Jeremiah 1:5 (I ordain thee a prophet").

A distinction is made in Jeremiah between priest, and pastor, and prophet (Jeremiah 2:8):

Is the ordination for a priest, pastor, and prophet different in the OT?

In today's churches, what denominations do you believe follow the proper procedures for ordination?

And what exactly are those procedures?
 
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Of course, my view of women being allowed to minister as pastors, does not rest on one proof text. But there is no doubt that Phoebe is a deacon in the fullest sense of the word, a leader who serves the church!
I agree with you.

Incidentally, in the Catholic church a deacon is an ordained person below priests. The pastor is the priest who is the head of the church. There are associate pastors. Priests are ordinary ministers. There are extraordinary ministers, who are laypersons who help administer the sacraments. Now as for deacons, they can administer the sacrament of reconciliation. Deacons can hear your confession, but they can't do anything about it (LOL) as can a priest.

All this semantics and legalistic interpretations of certain words, and which of those words (like pastor) can a woman be, is confusion.

Not one single person who has posted on this thread who would have us discriminate against women has put forth a consistent and credible argument.