Descended from Israel vs Belonging to Israel

[Sophia]

Absolutely, those not living under a law of righteousness are spiritual Israel. I can only repeat, is it impossible for God, to bring the physical Jews alive at that time to look on him whom they pierced and turn all ungodliness away from Jacob? Is it impossible for God at that time to bring all of the physical Jews alive at that time to accept Christ as their Saviour and turn from a law of righteousness to a righteousness of faith in Christ? Is it impossible for God to make all Physical Jews at that time part of spiritual Israel?
And who can say God does not have the right to do that if it is part of His Sovereign plan? In my opinion, it is the only way the prophecies mainly found in the OT can be accepted.
Can God not have elected all Physical Jews at a time in the future to be saved through Christ when they look on him whom they have pierced? Can God not open the mind and heart of anyone he chooses to accept his son as their Saviour. God is omnipotent, he will have mercy on whom he wishes to have mercy, and He will do whatever he chooses to do

God is fully Sovereign, and there is no limit on Him, so in this way you are right.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Actually, it's contextually accurate. If you have a real argument against it, then make it.
Start with a point, and try to counter it.

You will find that only dispensationalists will disagree with me... and not even all of them.
Dispensationalism is popular in America, but not globally. It is a very "scholastic" oriented theology group, not Spirit oriented.

"Dispensationalism" is an absolute heresy and I'll gladly document the same before this weekend is through (hopefully). I do have a lot of things on my plate that I need to attend to this weekend, but, Lord willing, I'll be a major contributor here and verify much of what you've already stated on this thread from scripture.

 

[f4ufighter777]

The misunderstanding is re the "King's English Bibles!" They are at "the bottom," of The Bible Totem Pole!!! Yet - it does possess enough competent text for one to-learn that DIVINE CREATIONISM Never Made ANY Jewish DNA. Anyone willing can google, just a few words - re this, to access enough Scholarly Essays to learn The Truth of "just who," Esau-Red-Edom is!!!
Just google "esau jewry," to find out that there is no-such-thing as any "Jewish Race!" And google "jesus not jewish"

Ron Stauffer
<[email protected]> for more info

food for thought:

{It is TOO LATE to pray for America: Isaiah tells us re times “such as these,” – THE LORD WILL NOT HEAR our prayers AND America (and all her Biblical Sister Nations) has-long-since followed “the same pattern,” of National Cultural Destruction THAT her genetic ancestors i.e. The Historic, Flesh and Blood, Non-Jewish House of Jacob-Israel – followed into Divine Judgment (without Rapture) over and over and over!!!}
{It is TOO EARLY to-employ “The Obedience,” of 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] Chronicles 7:14 FOR - Divine Intervention as The Disclaimer, in Verse 13 tells us THAT Verse 14 WILL NOT WORK as-long-as THE LORD’S OWN people, have sufficient access, to Resource and Energy enough, TO OBEY the prophets, in putting THE EVIL, out of The Land – SO STAYING Impending Divine Judgment!!!}
{Religious Prison has “no iron bars” YET it is Absolutely-Secure IN-THAT there has-been no-escapes from it, NO, NOT ONE, in-over 2000 years – ONLY Pardons!!! It is “the only prison,” WHEREBY “those so incarcerated,” of their-own selves CANNOT KNOW THAT they-are so-incarcerated!!!)



{still looking for allies re The Edomite (3 generation) Culture War, against The Bible (consequently against Christ) THOUGH they have-long-since "won it" THOUGH only on an-informal-basis WHILE formality cannot-be very-far away THEN, HE WILL DELIVER, HIS OWN people, into Great Tribulation, once again, THOUGH – this time FOR -"the last time!!!"}



{“none are-more hopelessly-enslaved than-those who falsely-believe they are-free” – Johann Gothe}
{“The Religiously-Lost, of their-own facilities, cannot-know THAT they-are Religiously-Lost!!!” – The Bible}
When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. When the government fears the people, there is liberty.

~~Thomas Jefferson



(When Edomite-Washington DC, wrote Christ, its “bill of divorcement,” by tossing, HIS LAW, out of America, as-if IT-WERE, some “smelly sack of garbage,” – man’s local church “co-signed it,” by just-singing AMAZING GRACE and VICTORY IN JESUS as-if ONLY NOTHING “was wrong,” – this act of Absolute Apathy disenfranchised HIM From, Any Longer, BEING America’s BENEFACTOR and-was “The Foundation,” THAT ALL OF America’s Great National Tragedies WOULD INDEED HAPPEN and-was The Foundation THAT Edom-Washington DC WOULD continually-follow, “it’s same course today of Illegally-Legally (i.e. violating The Constitution WHILE-Making “law of The Land) legislating “evil to be good,” AND “good to be evil!!!” Consequently – 1000s of otherwise-innocent lives, are destroyed 24/7 via “the many aspects,” of America’s “pagan culture,” of Death (America was-born with The Biblical Culture of Life!!!)!!!



[FONT=&quot]{SO, SINCE Edom-Jewry Communism has-murdered “hundreds of millions,” (and murders millions-more, each year) AND it is the: "finest ideals of the Edomite-Jewish mind" WHAT - does this tell-us about Edom-Jewry AND about who-blesses “these ideals,” by continually-blessing Communism’s Headquarters i.e. The Political State of Israel (not-to-be confused with The True Israelites, of The Flesh and Blood House of Jacob-Israel) WHEREBY America has-long-since become “the most Divinely-Cursed nation so-blessing her FORMER BENEFACTOR’S “racial enemies WHEREAS this is Biblically-Forbidden!!!?[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Anti-Communism is Anti-Semitism.”[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Jewish Voice, July - August 1941.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“Some call it Communism, I call it Judaism.” [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Rabbi Stephen Weiss.}[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
scripturesforamerica.org amprom.org kingidentity.com thetruthseeker.co.uk
amren.com infowars.com seek-info.com israelect.com missiontoisrael.org
wnd.com truthinhistory.org blacklistednews.com hoffman-info.com
thetomatobubble.com goggle: “red jewry” and “edom jewry”
From The Biblical Prospective “things,” have-been getting “worse and worse,” for “The Traditional American people,” for the past 3 generations AND FOR TOO LONG “these things,” have-been getting “worse and worse,” faster and faster!!!
From The Edomite Prospective “things,’ (re America) have-been getting “better and better,” for them, for the past 3 generations AND FOR TOO LONG “these things,” have-been getting “better and better,” faster and faster!!!
One already consequence, America has-long-since been-transformed into This World System’s Chief Pagan Nation, so-ruling over it!!!
Another consequence has-been The Transformation of America’s Original, Inherent-Biblical “Culture of Life,” INTO The Same Old, Anti-Christ, Babylonian “Culture of Death!!!” America – just like the-rest of here genetic-sister nations FEATURES The Culture of Death!!!
All this while – ALL that has-been heard-from The American-Made, 501c3, Mainstream, Local Church System re this, is-singing AMAZING GRACE and VICTORY IN JESUS as-if ONLY NOTHING is wrong!!! Consequently – The Current “Handwriting On The Wall,” Testifies of THE LORD’S Condemnation of America WITHOUT Rapture (this is not “the time,” to be ignorant of The Sowing and Reaping Doctrine!!!)!!!

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Seeing how these types of discussions generally center around the use of such terms and phrases as "supersessionism" or "replacement theology" and "dispensationalism", I thought that it might be best to begin by offering pretty standard definitions of such terms and phrases:

Supersessionism - Theopedia, an encyclopedia of Biblical Christianity

Supersessionism

Supersessionism is the traditional Christian belief that Christianity is the fulfillment of Biblical Judaism and therefore that Jews who deny that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah fall short of their calling as God's Chosen people.

Supersessionism, in its more radical form, maintains that the Jews are no longer considered to be God's Chosen people in any sense. This understanding is generally termed "replacement theology."

The traditional form of supersessionism does not theorize a replacement; instead it argues that Israel has been superseded only in the sense that the Church has been entrusted with the fulfillment of the promises of which Jewish Israel is the trustee. This belief has served not only as the explanation for why believers in Christ should not become Jews, but is also the reason that Jews are not exempted by the Christian churches from the call of the Gospel to believe in Jesus Christ for salvation from sin and from the penalties due to sin.

In recent times, the doctrine of supersessionism has been blamed for mistreatment of the Jews in the past. Some liberal Protestant groups have therefore formally renounced supersessionism, affirming that Jews and other non-Christians have a valid way to find God within their own faith, which breaks from historic Protestant teaching.

Dispensationalism affirms that salvation is only through faith in Christ and that Jews fall short of obtaining the kingdom of the promised Messiah unless they are converted to Christianity. However, in their view, a future mass conversion will result in the restoration of the nation of Israel prior to the Millennium, apart from the church dispensation. This anticipation of a future role for the ethnic and geo-political nation of Israel in the plan of God, apart from the Church, is what is meant by some dispensationalists who style themselves as rejectors of "supersessionism" or "replacement theology" and thus they are using the terms in a way that is distinctive to their expectation of future events.

Of course, in order for such terms and phrases as "supersessionism" or "replacement theology" to even merit any sort of genuine consideration in relation to the eternal plans and purposes of God it would first need to be proven that the natural, physical nation of Israel actually came first in relation to God's eternal plans and purposes because that which came SECOND is never superseded or replaced by that which came first. Quite frankly, such is impossible to do from a scriptural perspective as I will begin to document shortly. IOW, as the question of...

"Which came first: the chicken or the egg?"

...has been repeatedly asked and considered throughout the ages, I will basically be asking and scripturally answering the question of:

"Which came first: the church or the natural, physical nation of Israel?"

More specifically, I will really be asking and scripturally answering the question of:

"Which came first: Jesus Christ, the True Israel, or the natural, physical nation of Israel?"

Jesus Christ came first, friends, and the natural, physical nation of Israel was supposed to properly represent the True Israel, Jesus Christ, Who greatly PRECEDED them, but, sad to say, most of the time, such was not the case. It can not only be proven from scripture that the church began long before New Testament times and therefore PRECEDED and not superseded the natural, physical nation of Israel, but it can also clearly be proven that the true "supersessionism" or true "replacement theology" is being foisted upon us by those who have actually superseded or replaced God's plans and purposes as foreordained before the very foundation of the world in the Person of Jesus Christ with the much later formation of the natural, physical nation of Israel. Yes, in fact, the spiritual "Israel of God" existed long before the natural, physical nation of Israel ever came into existence and such can be and will be easily proven FROM SCRIPTURE in future posts. Also, as both God and time allow me to, I will clearly answer the question of:

"What did Paul mean, CONTEXTUALLY, both immediate and overall, when he said that 'and so all Israel shall be saved' (Romans 11:26)?"

Was Paul somehow implying that all of natural, physical Israel will be saved at Christ's second coming or that there will somehow be national redemption for the entire natural, physical nation of Israel at that time ("Dispensationalism") as many erroneously believe and teach today? Not by any stretch of one's wildest imaginations and, again, such will be clearly documented and proven as both God and time allow me to. Other questions will be asked and scripturally answered as well, such as...

"Will God truly bless those who bless natural, physical Israel and truly curse those who curse natural, physical Israel?"

...as many believe and teach today or did God mean something else entirely different? Also, I will be asking and scripturally answering the question of...

"Who is 'MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH' (Revelation 17:5)?"

...and how does the proper scriptural answer to this question pertain to the other questions at hand? The answers to these questions may very well surprise you, especially if you've been misled by many of today's popular teachers (read HERETICS), but the answers will be clearly documented from scripture for your consideration. Let's get started:

"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." (Genesis 1:1)

When someone tells us a story or gives us an account of a past event, we often ask them to start from the beginning in order to ensure that nothing relevant is left out so that we can best understand what has actually transpired. Although the Bible does tell us what transpired "in the beginning" in relation to Jesus Christ being the Second Person of the Triune Godhead Who is the Creator of all that is both visible and invisible (John 1:1-3, Ephesians 3:9, Colossians 1:16-17, Hebrews 1:2, etc.), it also takes us back even earlier than the beginning of creation in that it tells us what was foreordained by God before the foundation of the world as well. Yes, in relation to the same, we read:

"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God." (I Peter 1:18-21)

The apostle Peter, "a Jew" himself (Acts 10:28, Gal. 2:14), understood that Jesus Christ is "a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world" to be God's chosen means of redemption for fallen mankind which hadn't even come into existence as of yet. Although Christ wasn't fully manifested as such until thousands of years later, God's chosen means of redemption from "before the foundation of the world" had absolutely nothing at all to do with whether or not one was a Gentile, who came first, or an Israelite/Jew, who came second, as Christ was "foreordained" to give His life as "the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world" (John 1:29) before there was ever a man, woman or child upon the face of the earth and before the earth itself had ever even been created. The apostle Paul who was himself "of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews" (Philippians 3:5) and yet "a teacher of the Gentiles" (II Tim. 1:11), wrote to Timothy:

"Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles." (II Timothy 1:8-11)

Like the apostle Peter, the apostle Paul understood that God's "grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began" even though it wasn't fully manifested until the first "appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel". Yes, when such grace was given to "us", whether Gentile or Israelite/Jew, "before the world began", it had absolutely nothing at all to do with one's ethnicity as no human beings had even been created as of yet, but it had everything to do with faith in Christ's redemptive blood or with the acceptance of God's gracious gift of salvation as found in the Person of Jesus Christ. In his epistle to Titus, the apostle Paul wrote:

"Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;" (Titus 1:1-3)

Again, "before the world began", our God, Who cannot lie, promised eternal life and such eternal life is found in knowing both God and Jesus Christ Whom He has sent even as Jesus Himself prayed:

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3)

This "hope of eternal life" in Christ, which God "promised before the world began", was made manifest through the preaching of God's Word "in due times" and we'll see multiple examples of the same as we work our way through the Bible. As we look to such examples, examples which begin with the first man and the first woman to ever walk the face of this earth, Adam and Eve, both Gentiles themselves, please recognize and understand that salvation has always been found in Christ and in Christ alone and never in any ethnicity or nation. Before I begin to cover that in a future post, once more, the apostle Paul, while writing to a primarily Gentile audience in Ephesus (Ephesians 2:11, 3:1, 6, 8, 4:17), had the following to say:

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory." (Ephesians 1:3-14)

Those of us who have believed in Christ, whether Gentile or Israelite/Jew, were "chosen in Him before the foundation of the world". Yet again, our redemption has absolutely nothing at all to do with whether or not we are Gentiles or Israelites/Jews and everything to do with whether or not we have obtained "redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace" by believing in the "lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world" (I Peter 1:19-20), thereby being "chosen in Him before the foundation of the world". During His Incarnation, Jesus prayed:

"I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." (John 17:4-5)

Furthermore, He prayed:

"Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world." (John 17:24)

Jesus had glory with His Father "before the world was" and His Father loved Him "before the foundation of the world". Those of us who now belong to Christ, whether believing Gentiles, who came first as I'll document in future posts, or believing Israelites/Jews, who came second, will not only behold His glory one day, but we are also loved by the Father in the same manner in which He loves Jesus (John 17:26) in that we are now "accepted in the beloved" (Ephesians 1:6) or accepted in Christ Who is God's beloved Son (Luke 3:22, 9:35, 20:13, etc.) and the groundwork for such was laid "before the foundation of the world".

Friends, my point throughout this post is that from "before the foundation of the world" everything pertaining to salvation and eternal life was found in a Person and both our faith in Him and our submission unto Him and His Lordship and that Person is Jesus Christ. Again, from "before the foundation of the world", our salvation had absolutely nothing at all to do with one's ethnicity and as we continue on to consider what transpired after the foundation of the world we'll see that nothing ever changed in regard to salvation or eternal life being found in Christ alone and having nothing at all to do with one's ethnicity.

 

[michael56]

"Dispensationalism" is an absolute heresy and I'll gladly document the same before this weekend is through (hopefully). I do have a lot of things on my plate that I need to attend to this weekend, but, Lord willing, I'll be a major contributor here and verify much of what you've already stated on this thread from scripture.

If it is heretical, to believe according to biblical prophecies a time is coming, when in God's soverign plan all physical Jews alive at that time will accept Christ as their Saviour and be saved. I must be a heretic! (in some peoples eyes
-

 

[JesusistheChrist]

When we actually come to the creation or to "the foundation of the world" and to the making of the first man and woman, Adam and Eve, then we read:

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." (Genesis 1:26-27)

When Adam was made "in the image of God", he was actually made as a "figure" or as a "type" ("typos" in the underlying Greek)...

Greek Lexicon :: G5179 (KJV)

...of Him Who was to come or as a "type" of Christ. We read:

"Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come." (Romans 5:14)

Yes, the first man, Adam, was a "figure" or a "type" of Christ Who was to come and Paul explained this typology to us in his epistles. For example, in Paul's epistle to the Ephesians, we read:

"Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband." (Ephesians 5:22-33)

While teaching on the subject of marriage, Paul went all the way back to the book of Genesis and explained how that when Moses, under Divine Inspiration, wrote...

"Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh" (Genesis 2:24)

...that such a union between Adam and Eve, the first human beings and the first husband and wife, was "a great mystery" in that it was a "type" of God's desired union between Christ AND THE CHURCH. Yes, when God brought Eve to Adam...

"And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man" (Genesis 2:23)

...this typology pointed directly to the "great mystery" of Christ AND THE CHURCH. IOW, in the same manner in which Eve was declared to be "bone of my (Adam's) bones, and flesh of my (Adam's) flesh" (Genesis 2:23), we, as Christians, are reckoned to be "members of His (Christ's) body, of His (Christ's) flesh, and of His (Christ's) bones" (Ephesians 5:30). Again, Christ is not only "a lamb without spot and without blemish: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world" (I Peter 1:19-20), but the union between Christ AND THE CHURCH was shown in "type" from the time of the first two human beings upon the face of the earth and neither of them were Israelites/Jews, but they were both Gentiles instead. Once more, I'm not stating this to somehow suggest that salvation has anything even remotely to do with one being a Gentile, but I am stating this to insist that salvation has always had everything to do with faith in Jesus Christ and absolutely nothing at all to do with one's ethnicity. Seeing how the question of...

"When did the church begin?"

...has been a matter of endless debate, I'd strongly suggest that it began at the beginning, in Genesis, and that it was shown in "type" or as "a great mystery" from the time of Adam and Eve, even as Paul explained and even as we just read. After the actual fall of man or after Adam and Eve sinned against God by listening to "that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world" (Revelation 12:9), we read:

"And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." (Genesis 3:14-15)

Here, in what is commonly called the "protoevangelium" or the "first gospel", the LORD God proclaimed to "the serpent" or to Satan his eventual defeat by the "seed of the woman" or by the Messiah/Christ by informing him that although he will "bruise his (Christ's) heel" in relation to Christ's eventual crucifixion, He, Christ, "shall bruise thy head" in that He will be raised from the dead and ultimately banish Satan and his angels to the lake of fire (Matthew 25:41, Revelation 20:10). In fact, I believe that there is even an earlier proclamation of or at least an allusion to the gospel than this one in Genesis, for Paul wrote:

"But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us." (II Corinthians 4:3-7)

Satan is "the god of this world" who "hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them" and Paul likened "the light of the glorious gospel of Christ" to the time when God "commanded the light to shine out of darkness" way back in Genesis chapter 1. There, we read:

"And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness." (Genesis 1:3-4)

Again, we not only see Christ as "a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world" (I Peter 1:19-20), but we also see Christ as the Creator in Genesis 1:1, "the light of the glorious gospel of Christ" being likened to when God "commanded the light to shine out of darkness" in Genesis 1:3, the making of Adam and Eve in Genesis 1:26 and their marriage in Genesis 2:21-24 being likened to the "great mystery" of Christ AND THE CHURCH (Eph. 5:22-32) and Satan's demise being preached to him in relation to "the seed of the woman" or in relation to Jesus Christ ultimately "bruising his head". Yes, friends, all of this is in relation to Jesus Christ AND WE ARE CLOSE TO 2,000 YEARS BEFORE THERE WAS EVER A SINGLE NATURAL ISRAELITE OR JEW UPON THE FACE OF THE EARTH AT THIS POINT IN TIME. Again, friends, THE ENTIRE BIBLE IS ABOUT THE TRUE ISRAEL, JESUS CHRIST...and there are those who would seek to dupe us into believing that everything in scripture is somehow related to natural Israel which came much later. Anyhow, in relation to Adam and Eve, we read:

"And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons." (Genesis 3:7)

When Adam and Eve sinned by not only disobeying God, but by also obeying Satan, their eyes were opened to the fact that they were naked and they sought to cover the same by sewing fig leaves together and covering themselves with aprons made from the same. The LORD God, however, had a different sort of "covering" in mind, for we read:

"Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them." (Genesis 3:21)

In order for the LORD God to have made coats of skins for Adam and Eve, an animal needed to be slain and, again, such was a "type" of Jesus Christ, "a lamb without spot and without blemish: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world" (I Peter 1:19-20) and/or "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Revelation 13:8). Were Adam and Eve saved? To my knowledge, scripture doesn't implicitly state as much either way, but if they were, then their salvation was found in their faith in the "type" of the animal which was slain or found in their faith in the coming Christ Whom the LORD God had proclaimed would "bruise his (Satan's) head" and they were part of THE CHURCH. If not, then what were they and the Old Testament saints whom we know of a certainty were saved (Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, etc., etc.)? Anyhow, although both Adam and Eve are mentioned later in scripture in a negative light in relation to their sin (Job 31:33, Rom. 5:12-14, I Cor. 15:21-22, II Cor. 11:3, I Tim. 2:13-14), there do seem to be indications in scripture that they may have indeed been saved. For example, in relation to Eve, we read:

"And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD." (Genesis 4:1)

Here, Eve mentions getting a man child "from the LORD", so perhaps she was then in actual submission to the Same. Furthermore, after Cain had killed Abel, we read:

"And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew." (Genesis 4:25)

Here, Eve said that "God hath appointed me another seed", so, again, it is quite possible that she was in right relationship with God at that point in time. In either case, scripture certainly seems to indicate that Adam and Eve related the acceptable means of sacrifice in relation to salvation by faith in the coming Christ unto their two sons, Cain and Abel, and I'll address the same in a future post.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

If it is heretical, to believe according to biblical prophecies a time is coming, when in God's soverign plan all physical Jews alive at that time will accept Christ as their Saviour and be saved. I must be a heretic! (in some peoples eyes
-

"Dispensationalism" is indeed a HERESY.

You?

Well, if you've been believing and teaching/preaching the same out of genuine ignorance, then there's still hope for you in that you can repent of and renounce the same. If, however, you've already been confronted with the truth and you've chosen to be what the Bible calls "willingly ignorant", then you are indeed a HERETIC.

Anyhow, the onus of proving "dispensationalism" to indeed be a HERESY lies squarely upon me and I'm more than up to the task by the grace of God. I do have other things to attend to today, but I'm hoping to make at least another one or two posts on this thread before this day is through.

 

[michael56]

"Dispensationalism" is indeed a HERESY.

You?

Well, if you've been believing and teaching/preaching the same out of genuine ignorance, then there's still hope for you in that you can repent of and renounce the same. If, however, you've already been confronted with the truth and you've chosen to be what the Bible calls "willingly ignorant", then you are indeed a HERETIC.

Anyhow, the onus of proving "dispensationalism" to indeed be a HERESY lies squarely upon me and I'm more than up to the task by the grace of God. I do have other things to attend to today, but I'm hoping to make at least another one or two posts on this thread before this day is through.

Was Zechariah a heretic?
“I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. [SUP]3 [/SUP]On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves. [SUP]4 [/SUP]On that day I will strike every horse with panic and its rider with madness,” declares the Lord. “I will keep a watchful eye over Judah, but I will blind all the horses of the nations. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Then the clans of Judah will say in their hearts, ‘The people of Jerusalem are strong, because the Lord Almighty is their God.’
[SUP]6 [/SUP]“On that day I will make the clans of Judah like a firepot in a woodpile, like a flaming torch among sheaves. They will consume all the surrounding peoples right and left, but Jerusalem will remain intact in her place.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]“The Lord will save the dwellings of Judah first, so that the honor of the house of David and of Jerusalem’s inhabitants may not be greater than that of Judah.[SUP]8 [/SUP]On that day the Lord will shield those who live in Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like God,like the angel of the Lord going before them. [SUP]9 [/SUP]On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem.
[h=3]Mourning for the One They Pierced[/h][SUP]10 [/SUP]“And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit[SUP][a][/SUP] of grace and supplication. They will look on[SUP][b][/SUP] me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. [SUP]11 [/SUP]On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be as great as the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. [SUP]12 [/SUP]The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives, [SUP]13 [/SUP]the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives, [SUP]14 [/SUP]and all the rest of the clans and their wives.
Zech 12:2-14

 

[michael56]

his is what the Lord Almighty says: “Many peoples and the inhabitants of many cities will yet come, [SUP]21 [/SUP]and the inhabitants of one city will go to another and say, ‘Let us go at once to entreat the Lord and seek the Lord Almighty. I myself am going.’ [SUP]22 [/SUP]And many peoples and powerful nations will come to Jerusalem to seek the Lord Almighty and to entreat him.”
[SUP]23 [/SUP]This is what the Lord Almighty says: “In those days ten people from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, ‘Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you. Zech 8:20-23

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Was Zechariah a heretic?
“I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. [SUP]3 [/SUP]On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves. [SUP]4 [/SUP]On that day I will strike every horse with panic and its rider with madness,” declares the Lord. “I will keep a watchful eye over Judah, but I will blind all the horses of the nations. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Then the clans of Judah will say in their hearts, ‘The people of Jerusalem are strong, because the Lord Almighty is their God.’
[SUP]6 [/SUP]“On that day I will make the clans of Judah like a firepot in a woodpile, like a flaming torch among sheaves. They will consume all the surrounding peoples right and left, but Jerusalem will remain intact in her place.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]“The Lord will save the dwellings of Judah first, so that the honor of the house of David and of Jerusalem’s inhabitants may not be greater than that of Judah.[SUP]8 [/SUP]On that day the Lord will shield those who live in Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like God,like the angel of the Lord going before them. [SUP]9 [/SUP]On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem.
Mourning for the One They Pierced

[SUP]10 [/SUP]“And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit[SUP][a][/SUP] of grace and supplication. They will look on[SUP][b][/SUP] me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. [SUP]11 [/SUP]On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be as great as the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. [SUP]12 [/SUP]The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives, [SUP]13 [/SUP]the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives, [SUP]14 [/SUP]and all the rest of the clans and their wives.
Zech 12:2-14

No, Zechariah was not a heretic, but, unlike you, he apparently understood that the Bible speaks of two totally different "Israels"...

Romans chapter 9

[6] Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
[7] Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
[8] That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Galatians chapter 6

[15] For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
[16] And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

...and two totally different "Jerusalems" as well:

Galatians chapter 4

[21] Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
[22] For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
[23] But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
[24] Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
[25] For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
[26] But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
[27] For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
[28] Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
[29] But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
[30] Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
[31] So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Yes, apparently, unlike you, Zechariah understood that there is a "Jerusalem which now is" which will ultimately be "cast out" even as Hagar and Ishmael were and "shall not be heirs" and also a "Jerusalem which above which is free" which shall be joint heirs with Christ.

Anyhow, I'm getting ahead of myself...

 

[JesusistheChrist]

his is what the Lord Almighty says: “Many peoples and the inhabitants of many cities will yet come, [SUP]21 [/SUP]and the inhabitants of one city will go to another and say, ‘Let us go at once to entreat the Lord and seek the Lord Almighty. I myself am going.’ [SUP]22 [/SUP]And many peoples and powerful nations will come to Jerusalem to seek the Lord Almighty and to entreat him.”
[SUP]23 [/SUP]This is what the Lord Almighty says: “In those days ten people from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, ‘Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you. Zech 8:20-23

Again, here is what Jesus said:

Matthew chapter 8

[5] And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him,
[6] And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented.
[7] And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him.
[8] The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.
[9] For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
[10] When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
[11] And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
[12] But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Jesus told this Roman centurion, A GENTILE, who had great faith in Him that He hadn't found such great faith in all of natural Israel and He continued on to say that many shall come from the east and west (GENTILES) and shall sit down with Abraham (another GENTILE) and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, but the children of the kingdom (natural unbelieving Israelites/Jews) shall be cast out into outer darkness where there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. In fact, the Bible teaches from cover to cover that there will ultimately be more GENTILES saved than Jews.

There's no national ingathering of Israelites/Jews coming, friend, and we ought to be sharing the gospel with as many Israelites/Jews NOW as we possibly can that they might ultimately be saved.

 

[michael56]

Again, here is what Jesus said:

Matthew chapter 8

[5] And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him,
[6] And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented.
[7] And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him.
[8] The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.
[9] For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
[10] When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
[11] And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
[12] But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Jesus told this Roman centurion, A GENTILE, who had great faith in Him that He hadn't found such great faith in all of natural Israel and He continued on to say that many shall come from the east and west (GENTILES) and shall sit down with Abraham (another GENTILE) and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, but the children of the kingdom (natural unbelieving Israelites/Jews) shall be cast out into outer darkness where there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. In fact, the Bible teaches from cover to cover that there will ultimately be more GENTILES saved than Jews.

There's no national ingathering of Israelites/Jews coming, friend, and we ought to be sharing the gospel with as many Israelites/Jews NOW as we possibly can that they might ultimately be saved.

So the following refers to Gentile Christians?

his is what the Lord Almighty says: “I will save my people from the countries of the east and the west. [SUP]8 [/SUP]I will bring them back to live in Jerusalem; they will be my people, and I will be faithful and righteous to them as their God Zech 8:7&8

Also

But now I will not deal with the remnant of this people as I did in the past,” declares the LordAlmighty.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]“The seed will grow well, the vine will yield its fruit, the ground will produce its crops, and the heavens will drop their dew. I will give all these things as an inheritance to the remnant of this people. [SUP]13 [/SUP]Just as you, Judah and Israel, have been a curse[SUP][a][/SUP] among the nations, so I will save you, and you will be a blessing.[SUP][b][/SUP] Do not be afraid, but let your hands be strong
Zech 8:11-13

Also
I will strengthen Judah
and save the tribes of Joseph.
I will restore them
because I have compassion on them.
They will be as though
I had not rejected them,
for I am the Lord their God
and I will answer them.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]The Ephraimites will become like warriors,
and their hearts will be glad as with wine.
Their children will see it and be joyful;
their hearts will rejoice in the Lord.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]I will signal for them
and gather them in.
Surely I will redeem them;
they will be as numerous as before.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Though I scatter them among the peoples,
yet in distant lands they will remember me.
They and their children will survive,
and they will return.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]I will bring them back from Egypt
and gather them from Assyria.
I will bring them to Gilead and Lebanon,
and there will not be room enough for them.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]They will pass through the sea of trouble;
the surging sea will be subdued
and all the depths of the Nile will dry up.
Assyria’s pride will be brought down
and Egypt’s scepter will pass away.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]I will strengthen them in the Lord
and in his name they will live securely,”
declares the Lord. Zech 10:6-12

All of the above scripture refers to Gentile Christians in your view?

I will post much more as you respond

 

[michael56]

Again, here is what Jesus said:

Matthew chapter 8

[5] And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him,
[6] And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented.
[7] And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him.
[8] The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.
[9] For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
[10] When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
[11] And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
[12] But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Jesus told this Roman centurion, A GENTILE, who had great faith in Him that He hadn't found such great faith in all of natural Israel and He continued on to say that many shall come from the east and west (GENTILES) and shall sit down with Abraham (another GENTILE) and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, but the children of the kingdom (natural unbelieving Israelites/Jews) shall be cast out into outer darkness where there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. In fact, the Bible teaches from cover to cover that there will ultimately be more GENTILES saved than Jews.

There's no national ingathering of Israelites/Jews coming, friend, and we ought to be sharing the gospel with as many Israelites/Jews NOW as we possibly can that they might ultimately be saved.

Jesus said:
They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. Luke 21:24

 

[JesusistheChrist]

So the following refers to Gentile Christians?

his is what the Lord Almighty says: “I will save my people from the countries of the east and the west.[SUP]8 [/SUP]I will bring them back to live in Jerusalem; they will be my people, and I will be faithful and righteous to them as their God Zech 8:7&8

Also

But now I will not deal with the remnant of this people as I did in the past,” declares the LordAlmighty.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]“The seed will grow well, the vine will yield its fruit, the ground will produce its crops, and the heavens will drop their dew. I will give all these things as an inheritance to the remnant of this people. [SUP]13 [/SUP]Just as you, Judah and Israel, have been a curse[SUP][a][/SUP] among the nations, so I will save you, and you will be a blessing.[SUP][b][/SUP] Do not be afraid, but let your hands be strong
Zech 8:11-13

Also
I will strengthen Judah
and save the tribes of Joseph.
I will restore them
because I have compassion on them.
They will be as though
I had not rejected them,
for I am the Lord their God
and I will answer them.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]The Ephraimites will become like warriors,
and their hearts will be glad as with wine.
Their children will see it and be joyful;
their hearts will rejoice in the Lord.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]I will signal for them
and gather them in.
Surely I will redeem them;
they will be as numerous as before.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Though I scatter them among the peoples,
yet in distant lands they will remember me.
They and their children will survive,
and they will return.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]I will bring them back from Egypt
and gather them from Assyria.
I will bring them to Gilead and Lebanon,
and there will not be room enough for them.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]They will pass through the sea of trouble;
the surging sea will be subdued
and all the depths of the Nile will dry up.
Assyria’s pride will be brought down
and Egypt’s scepter will pass away.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]I will strengthen them in the Lord
and in his name they will live securely,”
declares the Lord. Zech 10:6-12

All of the above scripture refers to Gentile Christians in your view?

I will post much more as you respond

Not just "to Gentile Christians", but to Jewish Christians, too. Again, one's ethnicity has nothing at all to do with anything in relation to salvation:

Acts chapter 10

[34] Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
[35] But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
[36] The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all).

What is it about "no respecter of persons", "every nation" and "Lord of all" that you don't understand?

Unlike God, you're very much a "respecter of persons" in that you believe that there is some special covenant or promise which relates to natural born Israelites SOLELY UPON THEIR ETHNICITY.

It's nonsense, friend.

In fact, it's HERESY.

Galatians chapter 3

[26] For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
[27] For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
[28] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
[29] And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Jesus said:
They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. Luke 21:24

Yes and as somebody else on this thread already sought to explain to you, when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, then ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED because "the Israel of God" includes both believing Gentiles, who came first, and believing Israelites/Jews, who came second:

Romans chapter 11

[25] For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
[26] And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
[27] For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

 

[michael56]

Not just "to Gentile Christians", but to Jewish Christians, too. Again, one's ethnicity has nothing at all to do with anything in relation to salvation:

Acts chapter 10

[34] Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
[35] But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
[36] The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all).

What is it about "no respecter of persons", "every nation" and "Lord of all" that you don't understand?

Unlike God, you're very much a "respecter of persons" in that you believe that there is some special covenant or promise which relates to natural born Israelites SOLELY UPON THEIR ETHNICITY.

It's nonsense, friend.

In fact, it's HERESY.

Galatians chapter 3

[26] For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
[27] For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
[28] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
[29] And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Your blindness is tragic. The nation of Israel is so obviously being referred to it is so plainly written.
Does not God have a right-if he so chooses in his sovereign plan to bring the Jewish exiles home to their own land and bless them there? Are your thoughts and ways higher than God's?

But as you will not accept the plainest of scripture, my words must also be wasted. I will just post some more scripture

 

[michael56]

n those days and at that time,
when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem,
[SUP]2 [/SUP]I will gather all nations
and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat.[SUP][b][/SUP]
There I will put them on trial
for what they did to my inheritance, my people Israel,
because they scattered my people among the nations
and divided up my land.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]They cast lots for my people
and traded boys for prostitutes;
they sold girls for wine to drink.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]“Now what have you against me, Tyre and Sidon and all you regions of Philistia? Are you repaying me for something I have done? If you are paying me back, I will swiftly and speedily return on your own heads what you have done. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For you took my silver and my gold and carried off my finest treasures to your temples.[SUP][c][/SUP] [SUP]6 [/SUP]You sold the people of Judah and Jerusalem to the Greeks,that you might send them far from their homeland.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]“See, I am going to rouse them out of the places to which you sold them, and I will return on your own heads what you have done. [SUP]8 [/SUP]I will sell your sons and daughters to the people of Judah, and they will sell them to the Sabeans, a nation far away.” The Lord has spoken.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Proclaim this among the nations:
Prepare for war!
Rouse the warriors!
Let all the fighting men draw near and attack.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Beat your plowshares into swords
and your pruning hooks into spears.
Let the weakling say,
“I am strong!”
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Come quickly, all you nations from every side,
and assemble there.

Bring down your warriors, Lord!

[SUP]12 [/SUP]“Let the nations be roused;
let them advance into the Valley of Jehoshaphat,
for there I will sit
to judge all the nations on every side.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Swing the sickle,
for the harvest is ripe.
Come, trample the grapes,
for the winepress is full
and the vats overflow—
so great is their wickedness!”

[SUP]14 [/SUP]Multitudes, multitudes
in the valley of decision!
For the day of the Lord is near
in the valley of decision.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]The sun and moon will be darkened,
and the stars no longer shine.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]The Lord will roar from Zion
and thunder from Jerusalem;
the earth and the heavens will tremble.
But the Lord will be a refuge for his people,
a stronghold for the people of Israel.

[h=3]Blessings for God’s People[/h][SUP]17 [/SUP]“Then you will know that I, the Lord your God,
dwell in Zion, my holy hill.
Jerusalem will be holy;
never again will foreigners invade her.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]“In that day the mountains will drip new wine,
and the hills will flow with milk;
all the ravines of Judah will run with water.
A fountain will flow out of the Lord’s house
and will water the valley of acacias.[SUP][d][/SUP]
[SUP]19 [/SUP]But Egypt will be desolate,
Edom a desert waste,
because of violence done to the people of Judah,
in whose land they shed innocent blood.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Judah will be inhabited forever
and Jerusalem through all generations.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Shall I leave their innocent blood unavenged?
No, I will not.”

The Lord dwells in Zion!
Joel 3
​

 

[michael56]

Israel’s Restoration

[SUP]11 [/SUP]“In that day
“I will restore David’s fallen shelter—
I will repair its broken walls
and restore its ruins—
and will rebuild it as it used to be,
[SUP]12 [/SUP]so that they may possess the remnant of Edom
and all the nations that bear my name,[SUP][e][/SUP]”
declares the Lord, who will do these things.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]“The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when the reaper will be overtaken by the plowman
and the planter by the one treading grapes.
New wine will drip from the mountains
and flow from all the hills,
[SUP]14 [/SUP]and I will bring my people Israel back from exile.[SUP][f][/SUP]

“They will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them.
They will plant vineyards and drink their wine;
they will make gardens and eat their fruit.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]I will plant Israel in their own land,
never again to be uprooted
from the land I have given them,”

says the Lord your God.

Amos 9:11-15


I do appreciate being in a church where the minister, led by the Holy Spirit understands the truth so plainly laid down in the bible. But alas for the academically minded scholar:


1Cor 3:18-20

 

[michael56]

A day of the Lord is coming, Jerusalem, when your possessions will be plundered and divided up within your very walls.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Then theLord will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle.[SUP]4 [/SUP]On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. [SUP]5 [/SUP]You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake[SUP][a][/SUP] in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]On that day there will be neither sunlight nor cold, frosty darkness. [SUP]7 [/SUP]It will be a unique day—a day known only to the Lord—with no distinction between day and night. When evening comes, there will be light.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half of it east to the Dead Sea and half of it west to the Mediterranean Sea, in summer and in winter.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]The Lord will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one Lord, and his name the only name.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]The whole land, from Geba to Rimmon, south of Jerusalem, will become like the Arabah. But Jerusalem will be raised up high from the Benjamin Gate to the site of the First Gate, to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the royal winepresses, and will remain in its place. [SUP]11 [/SUP]It will be inhabited; never again will it be destroyed. Jerusalem will be secure.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]This is the plague with which the Lord will strike all the nations that fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths.[SUP]13 [/SUP]On that day people will be stricken by the Lord with great panic. They will seize each other by the hand and attack one another. [SUP]14 [/SUP]Judah too will fight at Jerusalem. The wealth of all the surrounding nations will be collected—great quantities of gold and silver and clothing. [SUP]15 [/SUP]A similar plague will strike the horses and mules, the camels and donkeys, and all the animals in those camps.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. [SUP]17 [/SUP]If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, they will have no rain. [SUP]18 [/SUP]If the Egyptian people do not go up and take part, they will have no rain. TheLord[SUP][b][/SUP] will bring on them the plague he inflicts on the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. [SUP]19 [/SUP]This will be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]On that day holy to the Lord will be inscribed on the bells of the horses, and the cooking pots in the Lord’s house will be like the sacred bowls in front of the altar. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Every pot in Jerusalem and Judah will be holy to the Lord Almighty, and all who come to sacrifice will take some of the pots and cook in them. And on that day there will no longer be a Canaanite[SUP][c][/SUP] in the house of the LordAlmighty.
Zech ch 14

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Your blindness is tragic. The nation of Israel is so obviously being referred to it is so plainly written.
Does not God have a right-if he so chooses in his sovereign plan to bring the Jewish exiles home to their own land and bless them there? Are your thoughts and ways higher than God's?

But as you will not accept the plainest of scripture, my words must also be wasted. I will just post some more scripture

It's your own blindness which is truly tragic, friend.

Anyhow, rather than go back and forth with you at this time, I'll just go back to outlining God's plan of salvation from both "before the foundation of the world" and after the same and all of your questions/objections will ultimately be answered/countered as I do so.