That's what I was trying to explain. If Christ used these Scriptures to refer to the New things, then the New things alone are what the Oracles of the OT are truly about.
If we use them to mean things for physical Israel, then the New Covenant could never have applied to anyone but those born of the 12 Tribes. (As the passage is directed only to Judah and Israel, not to the world)
If we use them to mean things for physical Israel, then Christ was not the one prophecied in Hosea as coming out of Egypt. (As the passage is directed at Israel, not mentioning the Messiah as the fulfillment)
If we use them to mean things for physical Israel, then Christ would have commanded all Gentiles to make pilgrimage to physical Jerusalem. (As the verse references Jerusalem, not seeking the Kingdom)
The hope of Israel was never supposed to be for physical things. The Apostles tell us that their hope in physical things is what led them astray, an why they were cut off; and turning their mind to a spiritual hope brings them (all of us) back to True Israel, which is Christ.
You seem to think that "scholarly mind" brings us to spiritualizing the OT. This is not the case. The scholarly mind brings people to take the OT physically (Letter, literal),
but the Spirit bring us to recognize the spiritual nature of the OT. It was never supposed to be physical, or interpreted physically.
A physical prophecy to a physical nation is not the Gospel, and yet the NT tells us that ALL Scriptures point to Christ.
If your interpretation points to physical things, then it is not pointing to Christ, but to physical Israel, rather than True Israel.
Please, at least attempt to see Christ in those prophecies of Israel.
Posting prophecies directed at "Israel" doesn't help your case.
Understanding what Israel is, and who receives the Promises, is why we disagree about each of their meanings.
You have to prove that these cannot reference Christ and His Body and His Kingdom and the New Jerusalem and True Israel; because there are those born of physical Israel, and also those who BELONG to Israel.
The Church is in dispersion. Scattered across the world in time and space. Christ is Coming back to gather His Church together, and ushering in a New Jerusalem to restore what Jerusalem was named to be.
They fit Christ. All I ask is that you look over the passages you posted with that in mind.All of the scriptures I quoted fit and compliment each other.
This is a general point, not aimed at anyone in particular. The greatest power seen in the Christian church was before the scholar and theologian came along-not after. Why are so many churches half empty? Most of the ministers have been to theological college! Why does the time of Acts often seem a bygone age never to be repeated?
Christianity needs to get back to its roots, to a time before the scholar and theologian came along and watered down the message, and conversely free grace(anything goes) also reared its ugly head. Christianity needs to get back to the full message that changed the worst of sinners into the greatest preacher of grace this world has ever seen. Then the churches will be full, and what took place in the book of Acts will again take place. For the Holy Spirit who is God's power on earth will respond to the pure truth being preached, as he did in biblical times. Acts 14:3 is just one example
They fit Christ. All I ask is that you look over the passages you posted with that in mind.
You don't have to cast off your interpretation in order to simply read through it once looking for deeper connection than just the literal.
The fact of Israel being a nation today does not change the meaning of those OT prophecies, or remove Christ from them. They still "all point to Christ" as the Apostles have stated.
If all the OT prophecies simply point to a single generation of genetic Jews in the future, then why are they quoted by the Apostles as pointing to the Body of Christ? If they are to be fulfilled by another group, that doesn't include us, then how can the Church be called children of the promise by the Apostles?
We are either children of the promise, or children of slavery. There is no third category.
I know you don't think I have an argument, and this is good. I don't want to have an argument about eschatology. I just want to bring you good news of the promises that you have been given through your union with Christ.
Understanding our position in Christ, as being brought into Israel, does not exclude Israel from the promise,
but it includes us into it, and excludes those those who reject Christ.
Believing in a future revival of Jews should not bring you to reject the promises given to you along with them.
If you look at where this passage has actually been quoted in the NT, then you would see:“I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. [SUP]3 [/SUP]On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves. [SUP]4 [/SUP]On that day I will strike every horse with panic and its rider with madness,” declares the Lord. “I will keep a watchful eye over Judah, but I will blind all the horses of the nations. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Then the clans of Judah will say in their hearts, ‘The people of Jerusalem are strong, because the Lord Almighty is their God.’
[SUP]6 [/SUP]“On that day I will make the clans of Judah like a firepot in a woodpile, like a flaming torch among sheaves. They will consume all the surrounding peoples right and left, but Jerusalem will remain intact in her place.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]“The Lord will save the dwellings of Judah first, so that the honor of the house of David and of Jerusalem’s inhabitants may not be greater than that of Judah.[SUP]8 [/SUP]On that day the Lord will shield those who live in Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like God,like the angel of the Lord going before them. [SUP]9 [/SUP]On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem.
Mourning for the One They Pierced
[SUP]10 [/SUP]“And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit[SUP][a][/SUP] of grace and supplication. They will look on[SUP][b][/SUP] me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. [SUP]11 [/SUP]On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be as great as the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. [SUP]12 [/SUP]The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives, [SUP]13 [/SUP]the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives, [SUP]14 [/SUP]and all the rest of the clans and their wives.
Zech 12:2-14
Do you believe the above refers to Gentile Christians? I assume you do. Do you then believe all Christians will live in Jerusalem and all the nations of the earth will surround all the Christians on this earth and attack them? Do all Christians belong to the house of David, Nathan and Levi, and shimei? Why will a spirit of grace be poured out on all Christians at that time? Do you not believe the Christian is under grace already? Are Christians living under the law still? I have to say, this is reasoning I have never heard of before, and I have been to church for over 35 years
If you look at where this passage has actually been quoted in the NT, then you would see:
Most of this was fulfilled already during the life, ministry, death, and resurrection of Christ.
Some was fulfilled on the Day of Pentecost.
Others will be fulfilled on the Day of His Coming.
There is no Gentile in the Church. We are brought into one Vine, and that one is from the root of Jesse, and the seed of Abraham. By calling the Body of Christ a "Gentile Church", you accidentally insult our union with Christ. You have to remember that the barrier has been removed, and we who were once not citizens of Israel have been brought unto it.
Like I said before, there will be a genetic remnant, but it is not only Jews, but all the tribes.
Zionism pretends that Judah is the only tribe left, and that those who call themselves Jews are actually part of that tribe. I beg to differ. No one who follows the Babylonian Talmud is considered a child of Israel. They have another father, according to Christ Himself.
You said "Gentile Christian", and such a thing does not exist. It consists of only one race, "and that one Heavenly". Both Jews and Gentiles can be brought in.... but they are reborn of spirit, putting off the old self.Where did I call the body of Christ the Gentile church? It consist of Jew and Gentile. You haven't answered my questions Sophia.
You said "Gentile Christian", and such a thing does not exist. It consists of only one race, "and that one Heavenly". Both Jews and Gentiles can be brought in.... but they are reborn of spirit, putting off the old self.
I can't answer all your questions. I am not the Holy Spirit. All I can do is point.
I love your passion for the truth though, and God does too. Rather than looking for passages to back up your belief, just try to look at what you have already stated through the lense of Christ. Not all the prophecies point to things future to us.
John 19:37 says that "they will look on the one they have pierced" was fulfilled by a Roman guard...
Do you have an answer for that?
Which one of us would see that as fulfillment, if not for the Spirit speaking through John.
Perhaps we should let the Spirit speak more often. Our minds can't fathom such things without His instruction.
Did you read John 19:34-37?''and I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit[SUP][a][/SUP] of grace and supplication. They will look on[SUP][b][/SUP] me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.[SUP]11 [/SUP]ON THAT DAY the weeping in Jerusalem will be as great as the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo.[SUP]12 [/SUP]The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives,[SUP]13 [/SUP]the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives,[SUP]14 [/SUP]and all the rest of the clans and their wives.''
So the above prophecy was fulfilled when Jesus died on the cross? All the clans of Israel looked on him whom they pierced and mourned for Jesus? Is that what you believe Sophia?
How can one roman guard fulfil that prophecy? Please explain
Did you read John 19:34-37?
Can you explain what John 19:37 means?
I can't fully. But I accept it.
Why on that day will the weeping in Jerusalem be as great as on the plain of Armagedon?
I really don't have a clue. Do you get that part?
John said fulfilled, not partially filled.Once again Sophia, you have not answered my question. The quote is THEY will look on the one they have pierced, that means more than one person, not one roman guard. The prophecy can be used in two instances. John only referred to one line of the prophecy from Zechariah. It is true, the Israelites who were at the crucifixtion would have looked on the one whom they were responsible for piercing. John did not quote the whole text.
Now please answer my question. In Zechariah it states the day they will look on the one they have pierced all the clans of Israel will mourn for Jesus. Please tell me how that text is fulfilled by one roman guard. I have answered your question, please, if you are being led of the Holy Spirit more than I in this discussion, please answer my previous post