Can a Christian be sinless, perfect?

[DiscipleDave]

I won't be sinless until I no longer have a fallen nature, until I have a sinless disposition.

And that is not this side of glory.

I am, however, complete (perfect) in Christ now.

Are you suggesting that because we have a fallen nature is why we sin? you do error if that is what you are saying, all flesh as a sinful nature, that is to say, all flesh desires to sin. Even Jesus while in the flesh was tempted to sin, But Jesus proved to us that just because we are tempted, and our flesh desires to sin, and that are flesh will always desire to sin, does NOT mean we will choose to sin.
For example i do not knowingly and willingly commit any sin, yet my flesh desires to sin all the time, my flesh is weak, my flesh serves sin, my flesh loves to sin, my flesh is as dung, my flesh is evil, my flesh is wicked, my flesh is contrary to my spirit, my flesh is what satan uses to tempt me, Flesh will ALWAYS desire to do that which is sinful. But even though my flesh desires to do those wicked things, it is my mind that controls the flesh. my flesh desires to have sex, yet i choose to not fulfil the desires of my sinful flesh, and have not had sex in 7.5 years now.
my point is, All flesh that comes from the Earth has a sin nature, because it is flesh, but just because our flesh has a sin nature, that is to say, a desire to sin, does not mean one has to choose to fulfill the desire of that flesh because they have a sin nature.
i have a fallen nature, and i choose not to live in sin, i choose to Go and Sin no more. i choose to hate sin, i choose to not obey my sinful wicked flesh, i choose, despite my fallen nature, to please God and not my flesh. If then i can do it, so can you, the question is Why don't you?
God told me one time in conversation
"There is no sin that you do that you can't cease from"
If then there is no sin that you can't cease from, then why are you not ceasing from them? Is it because your excusing them by using the fallen nature card? When you say

I won't be sinless until I no longer have a fallen nature,.. .. .. .

Sound to me like it is an excuse why you can't become sinless is because you claim to be in a fallen nature. That is no excuse at all, we are all under a fallen nature, that does not mean you will choose to commit sins or choose to live in sin.
With God all things are possible.

^i^ Responding to post#178

 

[DiscipleDave]

.. .. . . .. ... Christians cannot be sinless in this world, ... . .. . .

Scripture please. Because the entire Bible teaches us how we can be. Even Jesus Himself told a man and a woman to "Go and sin no more" Strange thing to tell them to do,if what you say is True, that Christians cannot be sinless. Why then did Jesus just tell them to go be sinless? All of Scriptures teaches us how NOT SIN, Jesus Himself was our example of what to do when we are tempted to sin. It is also taught to us that there is no temptation that is so strong that we can't handle it, Scriptures also teach us that with EVERY SINGLE temptation that God allows a path out of it. Scriptures also Teach what man says is impossible, is possible with God, i have hundreds of Scriptures in the website below that shows that what is said in the above statement is incorrect and is not the Truth.
i am a Christian, and i do not knowingly or willingly commit any sin, What you say is impossible, i am doing.

^i^ Responding to post# 179

 

[DiscipleDave]

Maby an answer you will find in 1. John 3, 2 . Not yet, but we will be when wir are in eternety. Our human body cant be sinnless.

What verse teaches what you just said above

Our human body can't be sinnless.

i have read the entire Bible over 80 times in my life, i have never come across one verse that teaches what you just said, so my question is, where did you get that knowledge from, because it is not from the Bible, where did it come from?

^i^ Responding to post#184

 

[Jeff_56]

'they' have been trained by a corrupt system.
and
have
seen no example of ekklesia living as they live in the NT. and for some reason haven't read how the ekklesia live in the NT (all of the descriptions of ekklesia, including the many times
it
is
written
that all the immersed believers were living daily on earth in union with yahshua with abba yahweh,

pleasing yahweh by faith, and doing all according to torah (scripture) by faith in yahshua as yahweh worked in them
to
accomplish all that yahweh said through yahshua --- living a life of honor instead of dishonoring yahweh;

living a life of righteousness instead of sinful disobedience that they had been saved from ,by yahweh through

yahshua. oh, yes- this is repeated many many times in the NT, and ignored or for a little while 'honestly'? missed by those who have no example to see and no good teacher to show them.... (the other option is to horrible to even think, let alone to post; though it will probably come out soon anyway....)

 

[michael56]

depends on how you read those promises. If they are true where do they lead?

If God changes my very thoughts, writes his law on my heart, gives me a new heart, puts his strength in place of my weakness, directs my paths, keeps me from temptation, strengthens me by His Spirit, keeps me from falling. then what is the result?

I told an sda minister of your views yesterday on this subject. He shook his head and smiled wistfully

 

[tribesman]

I don't get the point of the question, truth in the word is truth no matter what anyone does.

If that was the point you were trying to get across then at least me (and I think most here) agree with that.

 

[clittle]

Does John say that we can never stop sinning? no

Does John say that we will always sin? no

interesting how people all go to this text yet ignore all the texts where John says those who are born of God do not sin.

if you spend some time in the Greek in the passage you will understand by the tenses used, John is saying that if we claim to ever in this lifetime......ongoing... a continual state.... be without sin we lie.

and when he says we cannot send it means we cannot go on in a life of sin in a condition of sin since we are no longer a slave to sin.

in order for you to claim Christians cannot sin, do not sin, will not ever sin, you need to remove two thirds of the New Testament which are admonitions and explanations about sin and instructions and remedies and encouragement when we fail.

and you would be disobedient in never praying the Lord's Prayer which asks God daily to forgive us our sin.

you would also need to assume that the Apostles and disciples who did sin were never Christians.

the entire premise of sinlessness is preposterous, and only someone in precisely and ironically the condition of delusion that John described would consider themselves so.

 

[Jeff_56]

well, that's not quite true either, from yahweh the creator's viewpoint and from his word(most important).

what yahweh declares is so.

when or if he declare israel right with him, they were, no matter what any other nation or any prophet could say against them.

the accuser accuses believers, no matter what.

yahweh redeems whom he choses to redeem, no matter what (always in line with all of his word - and who is there to challenge him !?).... since yahweh is for us (whom he purchased with the infinitepricetreasure precious blood of the lamb), who(on earth, or even in heaven, or under the earth) can be against us -

no matter what hasatan the accuser says, yahweh's word is unchanged, and his atonement for his chosen ones remains perfect.

 

[clittle]

Are you suggesting that because we have a fallen nature is why we sin? you do error if that is what you are saying, all flesh as a sinful nature, that is to say, all flesh desires to sin. Even Jesus while in the flesh was tempted to sin, But Jesus proved to us that just because we are tempted, and our flesh desires to sin, and that are flesh will always desire to sin, does NOT mean we will choose to sin.
For example i do not knowingly and willingly commit any sin, yet my flesh desires to sin all the time, my flesh is weak, my flesh serves sin, my flesh loves to sin, my flesh is as dung, my flesh is evil, my flesh is wicked, my flesh is contrary to my spirit, my flesh is what satan uses to tempt me, Flesh will ALWAYS desire to do that which is sinful. But even though my flesh desires to do those wicked things, it is my mind that controls the flesh. my flesh desires to have sex, yet i choose to not fulfil the desires of my sinful flesh, and have not had sex in 7.5 years now.
my point is, All flesh that comes from the Earth has a sin nature, because it is flesh, but just because our flesh has a sin nature, that is to say, a desire to sin, does not mean one has to choose to fulfill the desire of that flesh because they have a sin nature.
i have a fallen nature, and i choose not to live in sin, i choose to Go and Sin no more. i choose to hate sin, i choose to not obey my sinful wicked flesh, i choose, despite my fallen nature, to please God and not my flesh. If then i can do it, so can you, the question is Why don't you?
God told me one time in conversation
"There is no sin that you do that you can't cease from"
If then there is no sin that you can't cease from, then why are you not ceasing from them? Is it because your excusing them by using the fallen nature card? When you say
Sound to me like it is an excuse why you can't become sinless is because you claim to be in a fallen nature. That is no excuse at all, we are all under a fallen nature, that does not mean you will choose to commit sins or choose to live in sin.
With God all things are possible.

^i^ Responding to post#178

if one were to follow you around for 24 hours or one week it would undoubtedly be sins of omission or commission very evident in your life whether you admit it or not. following you around is not necessary however simply following your own link to your website proves in fact that you are sinning, I will leave it to other readers to click on the link and determine for themselves in what way.
the sins that I saw on your website are so grievous that you probably should consider repenting..... ironically it's something you're unlikely to do considering you don't believe you're sinning.
may the lord have mercy upon you

 

[DiscipleDave]

if you spend some time in the Greek in the passage you will understand by the tenses used, John is saying that if we claim to ever in this lifetime......ongoing... a continual state.... be without sin we lie.

i have studied Greek and Hebrew, and what you say above is in FACT your opinion.

and when he says we cannot send it means we cannot go on in a life of sin in a condition of sin since we are no longer a slave to sin.

it means that according to you, not what Scriptures teach.

in order for you to claim Christians cannot sin, do not sin, will not ever sin, you need to remove two thirds of the New Testament which are admonitions and explanations about sin and instructions and remedies and encouragement when we fail.

This statement made me chuckle. Your right it talks about sin, HOW TO NOT DO IT, NOT live in it, and HOW to put it out of our lives. You know verses like get rid of the sin that so easily besets you, But why do that, if it is not possible to get rid of the sin that so easily besets you?

and you would be disobedient in never praying the Lord's Prayer which asks God daily to forgive us our sin.

Again made me chuckle, i say the Lords Prayer at least 3 times a day, sometimes 15 times a day, and of the Lord's prayer you mention forgive us our sins, i guess that would be the most important part of the Lord's Prayer to one who continues to live in sins. The most important part of the Lord's Prayer for me, is Lead us not into temptation, Which He can most certainly Do, and does for me daily.

you would also need to assume that the Apostles and disciples who did sin were never Christians.

The Disciples sinned much all throughout their being taught by Jesus while He was alive, because they doubted and did not have FAITH. They were not even Saved, during the entire time they were with Jesus Christ when He was alive. When He was taken to be crucified, they fled for fear of their own lives (not Faith) It was not until Jesus rose from the Dead that they became Saved, that they Truly Believed He was indeed the Son of the Living God, It was only after Jesus rose from the dead, that they received of the Holy Ghost.

the entire premise of sinlessness is preposterous,

According to you, but not to the Word of God. Jesus plainly told a man and a woman to "Go and sin no more" or will you have to explain that away as well so Scriptures will fit into your belief. There are verses that say Awake to righteousness and sin not, you will have to explain that verse away , or interpret that and MANY other verses to mean something that will fit into what you believe is the Truth. The entire Bible teaches us not to obey satan, not to sin.
Preposterous to you, but not to me, i KNOW all things are possible to them who Truly have the Holy Spirit of God living within. ONLY those who are carnal will say something is not possible.

and only someone in precisely and ironically the condition of delusion that John described would consider themselves so.

Then count me in there as well, because let all the diseases of the world come upon me, and let me die for all eternity in Hell fire, if i am lying, it is possible,i live it.

^i^

 

[DiscipleDave]

if one were to follow you around for 24 hours or one week it would undoubtedly be sins of omission or commission very evident in your life whether you admit it or not.

i do not knowingly or willingly commit any sin, that does not say i do not sin. if i wear a shoe that has leather in it, and another person is offended because an animal had to die for that shoe to be made, because i offended that person i have sinned, yet i did not knowingly commit that sin, i did not know that person would be offended. i do all things to please Jesus Christ, are you suggesting that is impossible to do? To do all things to please Jesus Christ. Only those who are selfish and live in sins will say it is impossible to please Jesus in all things, it is an excuse.
There is NO sin that you do that you can't cease from. If you think there is a sin that you can't cease from then reveal it, tell us what that sin is, that you can't possibly cease from. seriously what sin do you do that you CAN'T cease from? oh, so you can cease from them, i guess the question is WHY don't you then? Selfishness is the answer, you don't want to, would be the answer, your not willing to, would be another answer. IF you were true to your own self, you take that sin that so easily besets you, and figure out WHY you are not ceasing from it, and if you were Truly honest you would admit it is because you love to commit that sin. For who knowingly and willingly commits a sin that they hate to do? lol. Those who knowingly and willing commit sin, that is to say knowingly do something which they know is against God, WANT to do it. So you think it is impossible to walk like Jesus did, tell me what sin do you do that you can't cease from. All of you, be prepared to answer to Jesus Christ when you stand before Him on Judgement Day, this question "Why did you not cease from them" What would your answer be to Him? "Lord, i didn't think it was possible" will that be your answer?

following you around is not necessary however simply following your own link to your website proves in fact that you are sinning,

Tell me, is it Godly to accuse someone of sinning without revealing the sin they are being accused of?
You accuse me of sinning, yet have not shown one thing that i have said that is sinful or even one thing that i have said that is contrary to Scriptures. This is then a false accusation against a Christian brother is it not? Unless you show where i have done this sinning that you accuse me of.

I will leave it to other readers to click on the link and determine for themselves in what way.

Thank you Jesus. Because if left to you, you have already condemned me, without showing any evidence to why?

the sins that I saw on your website are so grievous that you probably should consider repenting.....

In the Lords Name, Jesus Christ i will be able to repent of any sin that have committed, if you would be kind enough to reveal what sin you think i committed? And a grievous one at that. Tell me, how can i repent of a grievous sin, if you do not reveal where i have done this evil wicked thing. How can i repent, if you do not show me what i have said that you consider to be a grievous sin? Would you have me be unrepentant of it, unforgiven of it? Do you love me? if you did you would reveal to me this grievous sin, so i can take it to the Lord and repent of it. Do you love me?

ironically it's something you're unlikely to do considering you don't believe you're sinning.

if i don't think i am sinning, would that not be all the more reason to show me Scriptures to show that i am sinning? Or is it easier for you to just accuse others of sinning, without trying to help that person at all, just accuse and move on, is that right? Your absolutely right, it is not something i am unlikely to do, if i don't know what it is that i need to repent of. And who's fault is that i do not know what to repent of, if you do not tell me what i have said that sinning?

may the lord have mercy upon you

Thank you, that was very kind of you, i hope so too.

^i^ Responding to post# 209

 

[DesiredHaven]

James defines the perfect man doesnt he?

 

[tribesman]

James defines the perfect man doesnt he?

James does not imply that this perfect man is "perfectly sinless" and literally equally perfect as God is perfect.

 

[DesiredHaven]

Anyone elses posts disapearing? I lost one here and in recipes

 

[Starcrash]

​Really! Is it possible that we can survive one day without sin?
Why did Jesus command such an impossible thing when He said, "Be perfect even as your Father which is heaven is perfect", and then contradicting, "No one is good accept God"

One might assume from the bible that Enoch and Elijah were both perfect because neither of them suffered the penalty of sin. This makes the whole idea of a "sin nature" senseless, but it has to be assumed to make their ends plausible.

But I doubt you've picked up a contradiction. "Be perfect" sounds like a suggestion, like a goal to strive for rather than a command. I agree that it is "such an impossible thing" when even "lusting after a woman in your heart" is sinful. Thought crimes are rather hard to avoid.

 

[Starcrash]

Anyone elses posts disapearing? I lost one here and in recipes

Yes. It appears that everything posted after "11 hours ago" disappeared. I lost 2 posts myself.

 

[DesiredHaven]

Yes. It appears that everything posted after "11 hours ago" disappeared. I lost 2 posts myself.

Thank God it wasnt my imagination. I come here and was like, "wheres my response"?

I even had a killer roast posted in recipes (poof!) lol

 

[newbirth]

James does not imply that this perfect man is "perfectly sinless" and literally equally perfect as God is perfect.

can a man be in Christ and be in sin at the same time ???


James 1:13-15King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.


2 Corinthians 6:14
Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

 

[DesiredHaven]

James does not imply that this perfect man is "perfectly sinless" and literally equally perfect as God is perfect.

Peace Tribesman, thanks, I was one of those who lost some of my responses

But in short, I was just referring to how an apostle pointed out the perfect man not men.

And I do not see words such as "sinlessly perfect" even used in scripture that way.

Those two words placed together like that is something men typically do, like create a couple of words and then just say he doesnt say these exact words which I always thought was kind of strange.

Like if I said to you, where are the words perfectly godly? Or perfectly holy?

I mean what would even see the point of that?

And maybe that wasnt the best example of what I mean.

But given the tongue is referred to as a world of iniquity (and that "no man" can tame the tongue) James just tells us what the perfect man would look like (in relation to the same). He goes into how we all offend in many things but he says the perfect man does not in word.

Again, what would that look like if we minus the Pharisees who WERE actually offended at Jesus words (ironically) when he spoke of what comes out of ones mouth defiles the man not what goes into it.

And so we see they were offended at his words.

So James didnt stop there, he goes to further show this man (the one he notes as the perfect man) ability, and says he is "ABLE ALSO to bridle the whole body".

Would be a cool study.

 

[Jeff_56]

suppose a 1 year old being carried by his daddy through the marketplace, or in church, all of a sudden has
those 'certain' noises and 'smells' that it's obvious he has a dirty diaper.


what kind of daddy will leave a dirty diaper on him very long, even in crowded situations ? pretty much

as soon as feasible, that baby gets his diaper changed --- toot-sweet (quick!)....


is the heavenly father WORSE then human fathers ?????????