Must a Christian read the Ten Commandments to Know How God wants them to live?

[gotime]

Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

These verses seem to help also in identifying the New covenant promise of the law on the heart. it has to do with sin being remembered no more. This is because of Jesus sacrifice, only His blood wipes away sin so again the context seems to be the sacrificial system. which pretty much includes everything.

 

[gotime]

I can only repeat my previous answer. Sin is transgression of the law. Therefore if you have the law placed on your heart and written on your mind by the Spirit God desires you to keep, you MUST have heartfelt conviction you are sinning when you do not keep that law. That must be how you know which law has been placed within you

I don't know about that, here is why.

You believe that the law is written on your heart by your faith in Jesus.

I also believe that very same thing.

so why then does my heart convict me on the Sabbath and yours does not?

Does the same spirit write different laws on our hearts?

I am not trying to get into the Sabbath here just using it as an example. So then by what measure do we determine the truth?

 

[michael56]

In Romans 14 Paul speaks of DISPUTABLE matters. He mentions clean and unclean foods, and one person considering one day more sacred than another and another person believing every day is alike.
He ends by saying. Whatever you believe about these matters keep between yourself and God.

I do not mean this in the least unkindly. But if it was not literally written down that the Sabbath(Saturday) was to be observed, would you know in your heart it must be observed?

I believe in your heart you would know God did not want you to steal, lie, murder etc

But though you rise a great point, I realise how much a Saturday sabbath means to you, so let us not derail the point of the discussion-hopefully

 

[michael56]

Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

These verses seem to help also in identifying the New covenant promise of the law on the heart. it has to do with sin being remembered no more. This is because of Jesus sacrifice, only His blood wipes away sin so again the context seems to be the sacrificial system. which pretty much includes everything.

If you are correct, anyone who has no heartfelt conviction they are sinning by eating ''unclean foods'' for example cannot be a Christian. There is no way around that, for under the terms of the new covenant the law you are required to keep is written on your mind and placed on your heart

 

[gotime]

In Romans 14 Paul speaks of DISPUTABLE matters. He mentions clean and unclean foods, and one person considering one day more sacred than another and another person believing every day is alike.
He ends by saying. Whatever you believe about these matters keep between yourself and God.

I do not mean this in the least unkindly. But if it was not literally written down that the Sabbath(Saturday) was to be observed, would you know in your heart it must be observed?

I believe in your heart you would know God did not want you to steal, lie, murder etc

But though you rise a great point, I realise how much a Saturday sabbath means to you, so let us not derail the point of the discussion-hopefully

All Good mate I don't really want to get into the Sabbath right now, I just used that as an example. so I wont address Romans 14 if that is ok with you?

But the point still stands does it not that there must be some measure outside of ourselves to keep us safe.

For example, We are reading in Hebrews about the law written on the heart, That law would seem in my view to be the perfect sacrifice of Jesus for our sins and thus taking away our sin as it is written:

Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

where as the old did not take away sins as it is written:

Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

Yet those who kept the old by faith are still saved under the blood of Jesus as it is written:

Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.




This law seems to me to have more to do with a deep conviction that Christ is the Messiah and High priest and the heavenly service He now ministers in.

 

[Hizikyah]

Revelation 19:13-15:, "And He was wrapped in a tallit dipped in blood, and the Name of Him is called: Yahshua--The Salvation of Yahweh. And the armies in heaven clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him upon white horses, And out of His mouth goes a sharp, two-edged sword, that with it He should strike the nations; and He will rule over them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty Yahweh."


Hebrews 4:12, "For the word of Yah [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

Daniyl 7:13-14, "I saw in the night visions, and behold, One like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they were brought together before Him. And there was given Him ruling authority, and glory, and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should obey Him; His government is an everlasting government, which will not pass away; and His kingdom is one which will not be destroyed."

 

[gotime]

If you are correct, anyone who has no heartfelt conviction they are sinning by eating ''unclean foods'' for example cannot be a Christian. There is no way around that, for under the terms of the new covenant the law you are required to keep is written on your mind and placed on your heart

I suppose that is it though I don't think the law is written on our hearts without us first knowing it or hearing it.

For example:

Contextually in chapter 10 the law written on the heart is Christ and Him Crucified as our sacrifice once for all taking away our sins.

Now how can that be on my heart without first hearing the good news?

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

So it seems to me clearly that one must first hear the truth and then by hearing or reading the truth The Spirit convicts us of that truth and this is the writing on the heart.

 

[michael56]

All Good mate I don't really want to get into the Sabbath right now, I just used that as an example. so I wont address Romans 14 if that is ok with you?

But the point still stands does it not that there must be some measure outside of ourselves to keep us safe.

.

Jesus told Nicodemus
Ye MUST be born again(the law is put within you God desires you to keep) It is not an option, it is pivotal That is what keeps you safe if you like. For when you give into your flesh and wilfully break that law, you MUST have a conscience by doing so. And that conscience will bring you to a very low place until you bow the knee and live evermore as God desires you to.
Jesus will ONLY be the Saviour from sin of someone who has been born again of the Spirit, for He will be no ones saviour from sin unless they in their heart desire to live as His Father wants them to

 

[michael56]

I suppose that is it though I don't think the law is written on our hearts without us first knowing it or hearing it.

.

Someone could recite to you the literal words of the Ten Commandments, but only the conviction of the Holy Spirit can convinct you, you are a sinner before God

 

[gotime]

Someone could recite to you the literal words of the Ten Commandments, but only the conviction of the Holy Spirit can convinct you, you are a sinner before God

Fully agree, but I still must here it and know of it before I can be convicted of it.

For the Spirit does not work contrary to the very word He inspired as it is written speaking of the Old Testament:

2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Yet I think this is true also of the New.

And what does the Spirit do:

Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Joh_16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

The writing of the law on the heart is not some actual writing but rather a conviction of truth. Truth comes to mind from the word when the Spirit convicts us by the word and when by Faith we accept it it is written on our hearts.

That is how I see it anyway. Therefore the measure of what is written is the word of God.

 

[michael56]

I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. [SUP]27 [/SUP]And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws Ezekiel 36:26&27

A mirror image of Heb 10:16 in my opinion

 

[michael56]

Fully agree, but I still must here it and know of it before I can be convicted of it.

For the Spirit does not work contrary to the very word He inspired as it is written speaking of the Old Testament:

2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Yet I think this is true also of the New.

And what does the Spirit do:

Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Joh_16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

The writing of the law on the heart is not some actual writing but rather a conviction of truth. Truth comes to mind from the word when the Spirit convicts us by the word and when by Faith we accept it it is written on our hearts.

That is how I see it anyway. Therefore the measure of what is written is the word of God.

Can a person become a Christian without having ever read the bible? Can a person enter a church service one evening and be convicted they are a sinner and seek to turn their life over to God through Christ? If they are convicted they are a sinner without having ever read the bible how did this happen? The Holy Spirit has convicted them of their sin before God. Then when they respond, they are born again of that same spirit and desire to keep the law in effect placed on their heart and written on their mind
However, I doubt we will agree on this and seem to be covering the same old ground. It seems best to me we just agree to disagree when it gets to this point

 

[gotime]

Can a person become a Christian without having ever read the bible? Can a person enter a church service one evening and be convicted they are a sinner and seek to turn their life over to God through Christ? If they are convicted they are a sinner without having ever read the bible how did this happen? The Holy Spirit has convicted them of their sin before God. Then when they respond, they are born again of that same spirit and desire to keep the law in effect placed on their heart and written on their mind
However, I doubt we will agree on this and seem to be covering the same old ground. It seems best to me we just agree to disagree when it gets to this point

Fair enough we can stop. thanx for your replies. good chat.

 

[michael56]

Fair enough we can stop. thanx for your replies. good chat.

Yes I have enjoyed it also

 

[gotime]

Can a person become a Christian without having ever read the bible? Can a person enter a church service one evening and be convicted they are a sinner and seek to turn their life over to God through Christ? If they are convicted they are a sinner without having ever read the bible how did this happen? The Holy Spirit has convicted them of their sin before God. Then when they respond, they are born again of that same spirit and desire to keep the law in effect placed on their heart and written on their mind
However, I doubt we will agree on this and seem to be covering the same old ground. It seems best to me we just agree to disagree when it gets to this point

however one last thing, I am not against what you just said, The Spirit does indeed convict of sin even before one reads the bible and hears the Gospel.

But that person still needs to hear the good news to be saved and that Good news is the law that Hebrews refers to, Jesus crucified is the new testament law written on the heart.

So Yes The Spirit can convict of sin in the life of a person who has not heard, but can they become fully aware of the law on the heart without hearing? no someone must tell them about Jesus or they must read about Him.

The reason I wrote this is to show that we are not as at odds as you may think.

It seems to me you are reducing the law on the heart to just the knowledge of sin. I Don't see that in Hebrews, The law is all the New covenant which includes.

Jesus the better sacrifice
Jesus our High Priest

These are the law of the new covenant.

anyway God bless I don't expect a reply.

 

[michael56]

however one last thing, I am not against what you just said, The Spirit does indeed convict of sin even before one reads the bible and hears the Gospel.

But that person still needs to hear the good news to be saved and that Good news is the law that Hebrews refers to, Jesus crucified is the new testament law written on the heart.

So Yes The Spirit can convict of sin in the life of a person who has not heard, but can they become fully aware of the law on the heart without hearing? no someone must tell them about Jesus or they must read about Him.

The reason I wrote this is to show that we are not as at odds as you may think.

It seems to me you are reducing the law on the heart to just the knowledge of sin. I Don't see that in Hebrews, The law is all the New covenant which includes.

Jesus the better sacrifice
Jesus our High Priest

These are the law of the new covenant.

anyway God bless I don't expect a reply.

The only reply I will give is the one I sent you by pm. Though I sent the entire book to 25 ministers (including an sda minister) and two elders of the sda church, only one person responded to what was written, an sda elder. She said in her view what was written was very accurate biblically speaking. My beliefs on this subject were clearly laid out in the book

 

[gotime]

The only reply I will give is the one I sent you by pm. Though I sent the entire book to 25 ministers (including an sda minister) and two elders of the sda church, only one person responded to what was written, an sda elder. She said in her view what was written was very accurate biblically speaking. My beliefs on this subject were clearly laid out in the book

I only just realized you have two more pages added, I will have a look at them.

I like what you have written in the first and agree with almost all of it bar two parts.

I believe the Old covenant was meant to be on the heart also, it was because they did not believe that it was not, but I think these verse allude to it:

Deu_10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Deu_30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

The other part I don't agree with is the statement that the gap will never be gone, that we can not possible cease form sin.

What is there to stop us, If The law is on our hearts, If The Gospel is about what Christ can do in us and not what we can do for Him, Then to say that we can not do it is really to say He can not do it.

Being that we can do nothing without Jesus, the suggestion that we can't is a suggestion that He can't. It seems to Say Jesus can get us only so far and then there is not enough power.

I will read the other two tomorrow, but as I said other than those two things I agree with the rest.

 

[michael56]

Deu_10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Deu_30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

That is the difference isn't it. Under the first covenant the Israelites were told they must circumcise their hearts, whereas under the new covenant God WILL circumcise their hearts

The other part I don't agree with is the statement that the gap will never be gone, that we can not possible cease form sin.

What is there to stop us, If The law is on our hearts, If The Gospel is about what Christ can do in us and not what we can do for Him, Then to say that we can not do it is really to say He can not do it.

Being that we can do nothing without Jesus, the suggestion that we can't is a suggestion that He can't. It seems to Say Jesus can get us only so far and then there is not enough power.

As we have discussed this point at length previously it would seem better we each agree to differ rather than try and discuss it further

I will read the other two tomorrow, but as I said other than those two things I agree with the rest.

Answers above

 

[Grandpa]

I personally think heartfelt conviction of sin precedes conversion, (born again). It is that heart felt conviction of the Spirit that leads me to seek a savior in the first place..

Yes. That is how the law is our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ.

I think that the law written on our hearts and minds is not so much about a knowledge simply but rather a state of being.

Ok. a little vague but ok.

The 10 commandments on stone were a letter that explained in simple terms what right is thus showing what sin is. but that is as far as they go, they have no power to save or change our heart.

But when God puts those laws on our hearts it becomes part of who we are in Christ, The letter gives the Knowledge the Spirit brings the reality.

You were already convicted of sin when you came to Christ. The Law that killed you on the inside is not the law that is written on your heart. The law that is written on stone is not the law written on your heart. The letter that kills is not the letter that is written on your heart.

What is written on your heart is what gives life. Love, Joy, Peace, Long-suffering (patience), etc. This is written on our new hearts of flesh.

In this I believe the letter of the law still gives us instruction, but it is the spirit of the law on our hearts that saves

Nope. You didn't understand the letter of the law until Love, Joy and Peace are written on your heart and you are given the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Christ.

Once you do understand, you already know the solution. You already know where your help is and where your blessing is. There is no further point in going to the letter that kills. You already know who you are and what you are. You know what you need and its not further condemnation.

Its Life. There is only one place to go. Its the same place you went when you were first condemned. Its the same place you will always go when you start feeling that way. Straight to the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

Hizikyah, your views match up with those of the Hebrew Roots Movement. Are you of that? I think readers here ought to know so they can weigh your doctrines in clear light. Maybe you are not of that, but the pattern of it is very evident.

Every reader here should spend a few minutes reading up on that movement, as it is spreading through many chat sites.

Reference Hebrew Roots - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
and more detail in What is the Hebrew Roots movement?

Many of them believe Paul was a false apostle. That explains why so much twisting and ignoring of Paul in context, cherry picking single verses that might help their cause. This group is a carry-over of the ancient Judaizers who waged war against Paul wherever he went, causing trouble for him by going around and ahead to the next town before Paul arrived.They are the ones that argued at the Jerusalem Council the Gentiles needed to keep the law and be circumcised.

Many claim they are saved, but are not Christians, having mixed the law and grace, abolishing faith in Christ alone. I know some Messianic Christians, love them, highly respect them, but know they are not of that movement. I think some folks have taken that and swung fully back to the Torah, thereby having to abandon the New Testament by refusing to take the mainline Christian contextual revelations, being claimed to be overly influenced by paganism beginning in the first century.

A consequence of rejecting the gospel message rendered by the apostle Paul puts them at odds with the apostles James and Peter, too. Says Peter in 2 Peter 3:14-17 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
[SUP]16 [/SUP] As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.