Seeker Friendly, vs tradition vs modernization vs distorted gospel

[Willie-T]

I'm guilty of the ISMS calling.
Arminianism, Calvinism, Zoroastrianism, Gnosticism, Legalism, Antinomianism, Stoicism, Platonism, etc...
I like the labels because they make things easier to organize... but their inherent flaw is that they cause divisions by making definitional dividing lines.

It seems it would not really be in anyone's calling to use them. Perhaps, we should strive not to.

 

[Willie-T]

Who me? Because I had to even ask what those letters stood for not so long ago, I dont hear of these thing except online. I just dont use other words outside of scripture for things. I dont study these words, where they originate what they mean, I try to stay away from them because they only seem to breed divisions and debates.

If its not words in scripture, its not for me.

I like that. "Entering into His rest" is among the most rejected. Augustine hit it right on the head when he made his famous observation and quote. “Love God and do as you please." (It's worth looking up)

 

[Reborn]

It seems it would not really be in anyone's calling to use them. Perhaps, we should strive not to.

Quick question?
Without labels or groups, how are we suppose to pin point how truly "saved" someone is, Willie?

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

Quick question?
Without labels or groups, how are we suppose to pin point how truly "saved" someone is, Willie?

That ain't up to us. That is Jesus' purview. We can't see the spirit/heart, we haven't a clue what's going on in there. Many of us are going to be like the guy who was walked through the gates and said to Peter, "Wow! Didn't think he'd be here!" "You're kidding me! She's here??" "Hey! Look who's over there. Never in a million years ... "

Then he asked, "Hey, Brother Peter ... why is everyone staring at us?"

Peter laughs and says, "They're amazed you'rehere!"

 

[Reborn]

That ain't up to us. That is Jesus' purview. We can't see the spirit/heart, we haven't a clue what's going on in there. Many of us are going to be like the guy who was walked through the gates and said to Peter, "Wow! Didn't think he'd be here!" "You're kidding me! She's here??" "Hey! Look who's over there. Never in a million years ... "

Then he asked, "Hey, Brother Peter ... why is everyone staring at us?"

Peter laughs and says, "They're amazed you're here!"

That was a joke VW.
I agree with you...God searches the hearts and minds.

I hate labels.
Too me, nothing is black or white. Groups? ......by having these, we lump and assume someones position in their walk, by the definition of that "group" or "label"

Can't someone be a little of this or a little of that "group"

I once told someone here on CC that I am a Bible believing Christian
....their response?
"Huh, that's not good enough....I need labels, so I know your position?"

I responded....Umm, my position is the Bible?

What!??

Really?
Sad huh?

 

[Willie-T]

That was a joke VW.
I agree with you...God searches the hearts and minds.

I hate labels.
Too me, nothing is black or white. Groups? ......by having these, we lump and assume someones position in their walk, by the definition of that "group" or "label"

Can't someone be a little of this or a little of that "group"

I once told someone here on CC that I am a Bible believing Christian
....their response?
"Huh, that's not good enough....I need labels, so I know your position?"

I responded....Umm, my position is the Bible?

What!??

Really?
Sad huh?

VERY sad, indeed.

 

[Willie-T]

Quick question?
Without labels or groups, how are we suppose to pin point how truly "saved" someone is, Willie?

Yeah, I guess I ought to rethink that. After all, without labels, ya can't tell the "real" Christians.

 

[elf3]

Well we have to understand that there are actually two "churches". There is the "visible church" which we see at our church services. Then there is the "invisible church". The invisible church is the true Church of Christ. (Those who have the saving faith in Christ.) Not everyone we see at church is in the invisible church. It isn't always easy to know who is actually is in the true church as many "play the game" but aren't actually "part of the team". All we can do is speak and spread the Gospel of Christ and let the Holy Spirit do the rest. To win people to Christ we must first get off the bench. Don't worry too much about who is saved and who isn't saved as much as spreading the Gospel of Christ. If we worry more about spreading the Word, than who is what denomination, then we are doing "our job". Every denomination (just about) has people in the invisible church so we should worry less about denomination and more about the Gospel.

Disclaimer: I say "just about" because certain churches who call themselves a "Christian denomination" are not Christian at all...for example the JW.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

That was a joke VW.

Very good, Reborn, you're catching on to my diabolical plot, to make people laugh, and then make 'em think.

I agree with you...God searches the hearts and minds.

I hate labels.
Too me, nothing is black or white. Groups? ......by having these, we lump and assume someones position in their walk, by the definition of that "group" or "label"

Can't someone be a little of this or a little of that "group"

I once told someone here on CC that I am a Bible believing Christian
....their response?
"Huh, that's not good enough....I need labels, so I know your position?"

I responded....Umm, my position is the Bible?

What!??

Really?
Sad huh?

Very sad, indeed. We can't be just "Christians" or "brothers/sisters in Christ." We've got to be a "reformed southern bapticostal with lutheran overtones and an affinity for stories about the Toronto blessing." Gimme a break!

 

[Willie-T]

Very good, Reborn, you're catching on to my diabolical plot, to make people laugh, and then make 'em think.

Very sad, indeed. We can't be just "Christians" or "brothers/sisters in Christ." We've got to be a "reformed southern bapticostal with lutheran overtones and an affinity for stories about the Toronto blessing." Gimme a break! View attachment 98821

It's a miracle!!!!! You just described me.

 

[Reborn]

Very good, Reborn, you're catching on to my diabolical plot, to make people laugh, and then make 'em think.

Very sad, indeed. We can't be just "Christians" or "brothers/sisters in Christ." We've got to be a "reformed southern bapticostal with lutheran overtones and an affinity for stories about the Toronto blessing." Gimme a break! View attachment 98821

Now this is funny.
Sorry about our run in a few weeks back ,VW.

Labels are for condiments.
I think....? .....Willie was originally saying he hated labels too?
That's where this thread ending up going.

 

[The_highwayman]

Not directed toward anyone in particular ...its just the truth!

Didn't know I was supposed to ask your permission to post...can I, please?

yeah and we all know its the truth so stop shouting and beating us with it....

 

[The_highwayman]

The real problem with the "seeker" movement, the "emergent" church, the "social gospel" churches isn't so much their lack of truthful preaching, though that is certainly a major problem they should correct, or abandon the idea of calling themselves a "church."

The real problem is they all try to draw the sinner into the last place on Earth a sinner is going to go willingly so they can hear the Gospel. It isn't the church's job to convert sinners! It is the church's job to equip their members to convert sinners!

People are fond of saying "The church isn't a place for saints, it's a place for sinners." But that isn't true! The church is where the imperfect believers worship, fellowship, study God's word, praise His holy Name, and learn how to make disciples of their friends, co-workers, and family.

To do that, the church has to preach the Gospel, teach the life applications of the Gospel, and do so in such a way that people can take the message out into the world.

We can't approach the problem of sin and redemption from a human perspective. As long as those churches cling to the idea of making themselves "less of a threat" to sinners, they are going to invite sin into the church, instead of inviting Christ into the sinner.

The Gospel is a threat. It is a "stumbling block" for those in the world. If it wasn't, then Satan wouldn't hate it so much, and try to get his own into churches to turn them into entertainment galleries rather than worship centers.

Lets look at the other side of the coin

I have been to the churches you described above and preached in some of them and all they seem to be are Pharisee country clubs, that love only each other and nobody else. When the world/sinner walks in looking for hope, they see people are so filled with "church" they leave and never return. The church you describe is a modern day pharisee movement, content on petting each other and condemning anyone else that does not look, believe or smell right....If you cannot lead a sinner in your church to Jesus Christ, then you cannot convince me that you are doing it in the world...

Furthermore, If the world/sinner visits your church and the Holy Spirit cannot convict them during one of your services, then it means the Spirit has left your church....and that friend is the major issue for the church today...

The church you describe is just another country club without the Brunch....you guys are so busy with each other, the lost keep on dying...because they are not welcome to your club...

80% of your people talk the talk but never walk the walk...

You guys are really good at predestination and unconditional election all right, you predetermine and elect who comes to your church and who does not...

meanwhile other churches are picking up the pieces of the lives you guys break....

Your self righteousness is hell on earth and you should be ashamed...

 

[Sirk]

Lets look at the other side of the coin

I have been to the churches you described above and preached in some of them and all they seem to be are Pharisee country clubs, that love only each other and nobody else. When the world/sinner walks in looking for hope, they see people are so filled with "church" they leave and never return. The church you describe is a modern day pharisee movement, content on petting each other and condemning anyone else that does not look, believe or smell right....If you cannot lead a sinner in your church to Jesus Christ, then you cannot convince me that you are doing it in the world...

Furthermore, If the world/sinner visits your church and the Holy Spirit cannot convict them during one of your services, then it means the Spirit has left your church....and that friend is the major issue for the church today...

The church you describe is just another country club without the Brunch....you guys are so busy with each other, the lost keep on dying...because they are not welcome to your club...

80% of your people talk the talk but never walk the walk...

You guys are really good at predestination and unconditional election all right, you predetermine and elect who comes to your church and who does not...

meanwhile other churches are picking up the pieces of the lives you guys break....

Your self righteousness is hell on earth and you should be ashamed...

I agree 100%. We are to bring people into the fold and model for them what true fellowship looks like. What better place to do that than in a church where people are loving and accepting....no matter how someone smells. I love that about my church.....and I love that it is growing.

 

[The_highwayman]

That ain't up to us. That is Jesus' purview. We can't see the spirit/heart, we haven't a clue what's going on in there. Many of us are going to be like the guy who was walked through the gates and said to Peter, "Wow! Didn't think he'd be here!" "You're kidding me! She's here??" "Hey! Look who's over there. Never in a million years ... "

Then he asked, "Hey, Brother Peter ... why is everyone staring at us?"

Peter laughs and says, "They're amazed you'rehere!"

Ah the Calvinist unconditional election answer..

How can you lead anyone to Jesus as his disciple, if you cannot even state the assurance of your own salvation, which the Bible clearly teaches?

 

[Sophia]

I like that. "Entering into His rest" is among the most rejected. Augustine hit it right on the head when he made his famous observation and quote. “Love God and do as you please." (It's worth looking up)

Without the second half of Augustine's quote... it sounds like it is teaching that it is ok to sin.
I actually agree with his quote, but not if you leave the 2nd half out.

What do you guys thing about the group's that use yoga as part of their gathering?
What about groups that use prayer beads, labyrinths, and statues?
How is it that we can openly rebuke the Catholic Church for their idolatry, and yet accept the eclectic spirituality of the "emergent" church as being an evangelistic tool?

 

[Sophia]

So much of this thread has become "Stop picking on the Saducees. The Pharisees are the real problem."

 

[VioletReigns]

*******************************************

 

[didymos]

So much of this thread has become "Stop picking on the Saducees. The Pharisees are the real problem."

Stop picking on me! I'm sad, you see?






(get it?)

 

[SoulWeaver]

"Cheap grace" is understood by asking two questions.

1.Are you striving?
- If a person says "no", then they are living as if the grace given to them doesn't mean enough to them to change their ways. They can claim Grace and claim to be a new creation, but without real change, their words are just lip-service. That is the primary meaning of "cheap grace": someone saying or living a way that displays Grace as not powerful enough to encite real attitude, motivation, and behavioural change.

- If you answer "yes", then move on to question 2.

2. Why are you striving?
- If it is to earn Grace, or maintain salvation, then you are calling Grace insufficient.

- If you are striving out of appreciation for the grace you have been given, and and out of love for your saviour, and submission to the one who bought you,
then you have a RIGHT attitude.

We are saved by Grace, and called unto good works. Neglecting either side of that is to view Grace as being cheap.

Striving is opposite to resting in faith of Christ which is commanded to us. Striving is my own work not God's works.
This teaching of striving is so unspeakably damaging, especially to young Christians... and there are many who just browse forums. And no resting in faith of Christ does NOT mean do whatever you want. Because it's impossible to do whatever you want when you're Resting In God and communing with God without ceasing. We cannot focus on ourselves, God is the focus. No "striving out of love" either as many say. Another trap taught in attempt to drag Christians into self-induced, worthless works. Nothing could be farther from God and less successful in defeating demons. What works is GOD and relationship with Him, setting our mind on Him always, renewing our minds with His Word. Striving, out of love, or fear, does not ever produce fruit. Resting in God and running to Him in faith is the only way that produces fruit and sets us free, when we trust like a little child. If we are striving we cant be resting at the same time. So where is that long promised rest of God?

I truly appreciate most of your posts on here Sis... but on this one I'll have to say it is damaging... We all start in the same spot, "having begun in the Spirit", and all goes fine, we get free from addictions and bondages, walk more and more with God, until the day when some people come and tell us that we need to "strive" as if God will not continue His work if we only keep trusting and abiding... that moment the Christian falls down into the flesh trying to induce "good works" himself... this has destroyed so many, myself in the past included... writing this because of young Christians who browse the forums so it does not happen to them as it did to me... set your eyes and mind on God always not on yourself... wish people just knew how actually damaging and unfruitful this "striving" teaching is. And no grace is not cheap...