Cross?

[Viligant_Warrior]

.

Yes the Romans used the crosses, but it was the Jews who wanted the crucifixion to be carried out.

I realize that. I was just pointing out, you said the Jews used the cross as an execution tool, and by the Law, they couldn't do that.

 

[DesiredHaven]

The word - Cross - is mentioned 28 times in the New Testament. Below are quotes from the (KJV)

1. Mat 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
2. Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
3. Mat 27:32 And as they came out, they found a man of Cyrene, Simon by name: him they compelled to bear his cross.
4. Mat 27:40 And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.
5. Mat 27:42 He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.
6. Mar 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
7. Mar 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
8. Mar 15:21 And they compel one Simon a Cyrenian, who passed by, coming out of the country, the father of Alexander and Rufus, to bear his cross.
9. Mar 15:30 Save thyself, and come down from the cross.
10. Mar 15:32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.
11. Luk 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
12. Luk 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
13. Luk 23:26 And as they led him away, they laid hold upon one Simon, a Cyrenian, coming out of the country, and on him they laid the cross, that he might bear it after Jesus.
14. Joh 19:17 And he bearing his cross went forth into a place called the place of a skull, which is called in the Hebrew Golgotha:
15. Joh 19:19 And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS.
16. Joh 19:25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.
17. Joh 19:31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
18. 1 Cor 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
19. 1 Cor 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
20. Gal 5:11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? Then is the offence of the cross ceased.
21. Gal 6:12 As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.
22. Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
23. Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
24. Phi 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
25. Phi 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
26. Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
27. Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
28. Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Yeah, whats the question with them? Im not understanding

 

[kennethcadwell]

.I realize that. I was just pointing out, you said the Jews used the cross as an execution tool, and by the Law, they couldn't do that.

I know as I wanted to emphasis how it was the Jew's and not the Romans who actually wanted to crucify Jesus.
I have seen people putting the blame on the Romans for His crucifixion, but as we can see from scripture this was not the wish of Pilate to carry this out.
Still though the two widely used and accepted crosses was either the t or x shaped crosses, and many of studies have been done on this and the earliest writings have the nails going through his hands. It wasn't tell later writings they changed to the wrist. And I know what the Greek word says, but we must take historic documents along with the definition.

 

[DesiredHaven]

Tree

1. tree, wood, timber, stock, plank, stalk, stick, gallows
   1. tree, trees
   2. wood, (Gen 22:6 upon Isaac) pieces of wood, gallows, firewood, cedar-wood, woody flax
2. Tree in the NT as well (Gal 3:13 makes a back reference) and Mat 26:2 Jesus states specifically concerning being crucifed

Of the bakers dream Joseph had interpreted

Gen 40:19 Yet within three days shall Pharaoh lift up thy head from off thee, and shall hang thee on a tree; and the birds shall eat thy flesh from off thee.

And of Saul whose head was cut off and his body fastened to a wall (rather then a tree)

1Sam 31:9 And they cut off his head, and stripped off his armour, and sent into the land of the Philistines round about, to publish it in the house of their idols, and among the people.

1Sam 31:10 And they put his armour in the house of Ashtaroth: and they fastened his body to the wall of Bethshan.

Joshua slew five Kings and hanged them on five trees

Josh 10:26 And afterward Joshua smote them, and slew them, and hanged them on five trees: and they were hanging upon the trees until the evening.

And likewise it says of Jesus... whom they slew and hanged him on a tree

Acts 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

There seem to be various ways to be hanged, and to what one was fastened to, whether a tree or a wall, whether with or without their heads

In Esther there was the gallows (which always made me think of the wild west hanging by a rope). But theres a few commentaries that suggest otherwise, one of those is Gills commentary when Haman made a high tree (or wood) of fifty cubits to hang Mordecai’s body http://www.biblestud...sther-5-14.html

Its hard to tell because the word hanged doesn't necessarily indicate the manner of hanging, the verses are far more telling

For example,

Lam 5:12 Princes are hanged up by their hand: the faces of elders were not honoured.

Whereas Jesus Christ, the Prince of life (was also hanged on a tree) where the piercing of his hands and feet are noted

Psalm 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

Acts 3:15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

Which we all know is crucifixion

Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Luke 24:29 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

And of Thomas who wasn't with the other disciples when Jesus showed himself

John 20:25 Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

And to whom Jesus showed himself.

The tree, wood, and cross are of the same, and the manner in which he was hanged on a tree is very clear, the pole was a sign, a signal (and ensign) pertaining to his being lifted up but Jesus did say (before this occured) it signified what manner of death he was to die, and that in itself spoke to his being crucified.

 

[dcontroversal]

If I rememebr right the associational guilt of Pilate is established in Acts......I am in Australia and dont have my library at hand to confirm this, but pretty sure that the Jews and Pilate are tied together in the guilt of the killing Jesus in Acts......!

Yes the Romans used the crosses, but it was the Jews who wanted the crucifixion to be carried out.
Remember Pontius Pilate did not want to crucify Jesus, and left the decision of to the Jewish crowd. They choose to let Barabbas go and not Jesus, and Pilate even had Jesus beaten to try and appease the crowd. The Jewish crowd lead by the Pharisees still invoked the crowd to scream for Jesus crucifixion. Pilate then even had a bowl of water brought and washed his hands showing that his hands were clean from doing this, as this was not what he wished to do.

 

[kennethcadwell]

If i rememebr right the associational guilt of Pilate is established in Acts......I am in Australia and dont have my library at hand to confirm this, but pretty sure that the Jews and Pilate are tied together in the guilt of killing Jesus in Acts......!

Pilate gave the order, but it is not what he wished to do.
Matthew 27 gives us the full picture of this as Pilate offered up another in Barabbas to be crucified instead, and the Jews choose to set him free instead instead of Jesus. Then Pilate even ordered the flogging of Jesus to try and appease the crowd, instead the Jewish crowd still wanted Him crucified. Then Pilate even had a bowl of water brought out, and said and showed his hands were clean of this because it is not what he wanted.
He gave and had the order carried out yes, but he first tried to more then once to have it not be done.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

I know as I wanted to emphasis how it was the Jew's and not the Romans who actually wanted to crucify Jesus.
I have seen people putting the blame on the Romans for His crucifixion, but as we can see from scripture this was not the wish of Pilate to carry this out.
Still though the two widely used and accepted crosses was either the t or x shaped crosses, and many of studies have been done on this and the earliest writings have the nails going through his hands. It wasn't tell later writings they changed to the wrist. And I know what the Greek word says, but we must take historic documents along with the definition.

I watched this history show a few years ago where they found the bones of bodies they believed to be crucified during the Roman times. And what was interesting, they found the nails still embedded in the heel bones of those crucified. In the movies you always see the nails being put into the top of the feet, but this show revealed the nails were in the heel. (ouch!)

That made me think of this verse in Genesis 3:15 "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

 

[dcontroversal]

Kenneth I know the story...have read it like a 100 times or more....in ACTS his associational GUILT is established and to be honest WE ALL put CHRIST on the cross because of our own sin......

Pilate gave the order, but it is not what he wished to do.
Matthew 27 gives us the full picture of this as Pilate offered up another in Barabbas to be crucified instead, and the Jews choose to set him free instead instead of Jesus. Then Pilate even ordered the flogging of Jesus to try and appease the crowd, instead the Jewish crowd still wanted Him crucified. Then Pilate even had a bowl of water brought out, and said and showed his hands were clean of this because it is not what he wanted.
He gave and had the order carried out yes, but he first tried to more then once to have it not be done.

 

[DesiredHaven]

Pilate gave the order, but it is not what he wished to do.
Matthew 27 gives us the full picture of this as Pilate offered up another in Barabbas to be crucified instead, and the Jews choose to set him free instead instead of Jesus. Then Pilate even ordered the flogging of Jesus to try and appease the crowd, instead the Jewish crowd still wanted Him crucified. Then Pilate even had a bowl of water brought out, and said and showed his hands were clean of this because it is not what he wanted.
He gave and had the order carried out yes, but he first tried to more then once to have it not be done.

Looks like Pilate would have let him go

Acts 3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.

Acts 3:14But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;

They would rather have a murderer

Acts 3:15And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

He did say they acted in ignorance

Acts 3:17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, asdid also your rulers.

Acts 3:18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.

Acts 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

Acts 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

 

[Willie-T]

I watched this history show a few years ago where they found the bones of bodies they believed to be crucified during the Roman times. And what was interesting, they found the nails still embedded in the heel bones of those crucified. In the movies you always see the nails being put into the top of the feet, but this show revealed the nails were in the heel. (ouch!)

That made me think of this verse in Genesis 3:15 "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

Very interesting.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

... Pilate even had a bowl of water brought out, and said and showed his hands were clean of this because it is not what he wanted.
He gave and had the order carried out yes, but he first tried to more then once to have it not be done.

He didn't try hard enough. He was their governor, not their servant. If he wanted to, he could have spared Jesus, but he chose to be politically expedient rather than to govern righteously. Gee, sound like politicians today, don't it?

His hand washing did nothing but get his hands wet. He could no more exonerate himself of Christ's death than you or I can, because we are also at fault for His death.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Kenneth I know the story...have read it like a 100 times or more....in ACTS his associational GUILT is established and to be honest WE ALL put CHRIST on the cross because of our own sin......

Looks like Pilate would have let him go

Acts 3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.

Acts 3:14But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;

They would rather have a murderer

Acts 3:15And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

He did say they acted in ignorance

Acts 3:17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, asdid also your rulers.

Acts 3:18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.

Acts 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

Acts 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

He didn't try hard enough. He was their governor, not their servant. If he wanted to, he could have spared Jesus, but he chose to be politically expedient rather than to govern righteously. Gee, sound like politicians today, don't it?

His hand washing did nothing but get his hands wet. He could no more exonerate himself of Christ's death that you or I can, because we are also at fault for His death.

Well here you go Dcon and Warrior as DesiredHaven gave you the scripture from Acts 3 that shows that Pilate desired to let Jesus go.

And spoken just like a critic Warrior that he didn't try hard enough.
Why is it that every time a political figure gets yelled at for not listening to the people, and then when they do they still get yelled at for doing so ???

The crowd wanted Jesus crucified, and Pilate did as the crowd wanted..........

Sounds like now day events, as the U.S. people wanted the soldiers pulled out of Iraq and Obama listened and did it, and now Obama is catching flack and being blamed for what the American public wanted done..........

 

[dcontroversal]

Should we all in unison say...well here we go again with Kenneth and his inability to acknowledge the simple truth of what we have all said and pointed out.....from ACTS as well.....

Well here you go Dcon and Warrior as DesiredHaven gave you the scripture from Acts 3 that shows that Pilate desired to let Jesus go.

And spoken just like a critic Warrior that he didn't try hard enough.
Why is it that every time a political figure gets yelled at for not listening to the people, and then when they do they still get yelled at for doing so ???

The crowd wanted Jesus crucified, and Pilate did as the crowd wanted..........

Sounds like now day events, as the U.S. people wanted the soldiers pulled out of Iraq and Obama listened and did it, and now Obama is catching flack and being blamed for what the American public wanted done..........

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Very interesting.

I thought so too....here's a story In a stone box, the only trace of crucifixion | The Times of Israel

Here's the heel bone with nail still in it.

The heel bone and nail from the ossuary of Yehohanan. (photo credit: Courtesy the Israel Museum,

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

Well here you go Dcon and Warrior as DesiredHaven gave you the scripture from Acts 3 that shows that Pilate desired to let Jesus go.

What part of "He had the power to let Him go, but didn't" do you fail to understand? Whether he "wanted" to let Jesus go is irrelevant. What he actually did is what matters, and what did he do? He crucified Him, a Man of whom Pilate said, "I find no guilt" in Him.

So how do you exonerate a governor who deliberately put to death, for political reasons, an innocent man?

 

[dcontroversal]

What part of "He had the power to let Him go, but didn't" do you fail to understand? Whether he "wanted" to let Jesus go is irrelevant. What he actually did is what matters, and what did he do? He crucified Him, a Man of whom Pilate said, "I find no guilt" in Him.

So how do you exonerate a governor who deliberately put to death, for political reasons, an innocent man?

Brother you can forget it....He has no ability to admit the truth when it comes to anyone who can contrdict what he believes and teaches......or even if we can augment his view...he will deny it, argue it, twist it......!

 

[DesiredHaven]

God had determined how it would go before though

They say,

Acts 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

Acts 13:37 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.

They handed him over to Pilate

Acts 13:28And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain.

And we know the story,

Acts 13:29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.

Acts 13:30 But God raised him from the dead:

But of the Jews Paul does write in an epistle

1 Thes 2:14 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

2 Thes 2:16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

Which would be of these

Mat 23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

Mat 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

Likewise he had said,

Mat 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

And up further

Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

And again

Acts 13:37 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.

Luke 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

Luke 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

As Moses (the law) and Elijah (the prophets) shown as two men in a vision speaking to Him about his decease which should be accomplished at Jerusalem.

Likewise He says,

Mark 10:33 Saying, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be delivered unto the chief priests, and unto the scribes; and they shall condemn him to death, and shall deliver him to the Gentiles:

Mat 10:34 And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again.

So one condemns him to death the other kills him but since Pilate would to let him go (and they denied) they had part in this doing, but all are noted as gathered together against him in this verse.

Acts 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

That last verse still pute them in together, but the Jews handed him over (even when Pilate would to let him go) it was determined beforehand. and Jesus knew that.

 

[kennethcadwell]

What part of "He had the power to let Him go, but didn't" do you fail to understand? Whether he "wanted" to let Jesus go is irrelevant. What he actually did is what matters, and what did he do? He crucified Him, a Man of whom Pilate said, "I find no guilt" in Him.

So how do you exonerate a governor who deliberately put to death, for political reasons, an innocent man?

Brother you can forget it....He has no ability to admit the truth when it comes to anyone who can contrdict what he believes and teaches......or even if we can augment his view...he will deny it, argue it, twist it......!

Forget it why because I won't accept your version of scripture, when the one just shown in Acts 3 said Pilate wanted to let him go.

Plus I guess you forgot that he did not have the power to let Him go, and even Jesus told him he would not have the authority unless God gave it to him. It was not God's will to let Jesus go, so Pilate did not as he did as the crowd asked.

Once again why do some of you yell at a person in charge for not listening to the people, and then when they do you blame them later for doing so. Instead of putting the blame where it is do as well, on those who told him to do it.

Look I said that Pilate was guilty by association because he gave the order, but the scriptures make it clear that is no what he wished to do. Pilate was following the laws of the land at that time, which is why he offered options to appease the crowd first.

 

[kennethcadwell]

I thought so too....here's a story In a stone box, the only trace of crucifixion | The Times of Israel

Here's the heel bone with nail still in it.

The heel bone and nail from the ossuary of Yehohanan. (photo credit: Courtesy the Israel Museum,

http://christianchat.com/christian-news-forum/104366-crucifixion-nails-found-caiaphas-ossuary.html

 

[Vernon]

Doesn't Paul explain that Christ became a curse for our sakes , because it is written cursed is a man hung from a tree?
Deuteronomy 21:23 , Galatians 3:13