Must a Christian read the Ten Commandments to Know How God wants them to live?
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K
I don't know exactly where you fall on the spectrum on this, but I think one of the biggest issues is that people do not exactly know or understand how to separate the moral law of God from the 613 Mosaic written ordinances that we are not under. Just like I said in that previous post if you are sinning you are not keeping law, but if you are not sinning you are keeping the law. Rather you look at it or not, as even Paul understood this which is why he showed that by walking in the spirit and producing the fruits thereof you would be uphold those commandments.
They see the word law and they make it all a dirty thing, but yet Paul even says His laws or written in our hearts and on our mind. What laws of God is written in us if it is not His moral law to not steal, covet, and so on ?
John clearly says if you are practicing sinning as in continue to sin you are lawlessness, because we are told clearly not to sin but if we do we have an advocate with the Father in Jesus that when we confess those sins He will forgive us and cleanse us of all unrighteousness.
Exactly, it's not an either-or thing. God wrote His law on paper until such time as He could write it in our hearts. His Law never changed, just how we receive and acknowledge it did. Previously, we in the flesh had to follow the law by the letter. Now, we in the Spirit will follow the law by heart. So while we are not technically under the letter of the law, if we walk in truth we keep the law in Spirit. But it's all the same law.
M
Your translation seems to be a little fuzzy with the truth there Kenneth?
1Jo 3:4 ¶ Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
A believer in Christ cannot sin against the law of Moses? Why? because a believer is not under the law.
Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
1Jo 3:4 ¶ Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
A believer in Christ cannot sin against the law of Moses? Why? because a believer is not under the law.
Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Thanx for your reply,
you see this is my problem, what you have said is good. While I speak of the law I do not mean we are saved by it or through it.
I do not struggle to keep the law for that is foolishness and a denial of Jesus and His finished work on the cross.
Rather keeping the law is a fruit of resting in Christ by faith.
See this is my problem I at least for the most part agree with everything you just said. "I say most part because I have not gone over it with a fine tooth comb to be sure"
So how is it that I agree with what you have just said Yet you think I believe differently?
I think its our words that are tripping us up maybe.
you said "It is the only way fruit is grown and it is only by this fruit that the law is kept."
I agree fully the difference is I think this fruit also includes the Sabbath aspect of the law where as you do not. at least that is how I perceive it, correct me If I am wrong.
you see this is my problem, what you have said is good. While I speak of the law I do not mean we are saved by it or through it.
I do not struggle to keep the law for that is foolishness and a denial of Jesus and His finished work on the cross.
Rather keeping the law is a fruit of resting in Christ by faith.
See this is my problem I at least for the most part agree with everything you just said. "I say most part because I have not gone over it with a fine tooth comb to be sure"
So how is it that I agree with what you have just said Yet you think I believe differently?
I think its our words that are tripping us up maybe.
you said "It is the only way fruit is grown and it is only by this fruit that the law is kept."
I agree fully the difference is I think this fruit also includes the Sabbath aspect of the law where as you do not. at least that is how I perceive it, correct me If I am wrong.
I think we only differ on the Sabbath.
I think that the fruit of the spirit is what keeps the law. I think that however you rest in Christ or worship God on Saturday should be done every day. Aside from gathering with the brethren...
My biggest hang up is I don't understand how you can work at the law and rest in Christ at the same time. I think you have to choose one or the other.
Galatians 3:2-3
[SUP]2 [/SUP]This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
When you find you aren't able to keep the law perfectly as it was intended then we have further instructions.
Matthew 11:28-30
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
When you find you aren't able to keep the law perfectly as it was intended then we have further instructions.
Matthew 11:28-30
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
Thank you again for your reply. Please permit me to respond.
you said" I think that the fruit of the spirit is what keeps the law."
I agree that is why there is no law against the fruit of the Spirit. but does not that fruit have real action in it?
When we love and accept God do we not get physically baptised? Yet the physical is but a public deceleration of the spiritual reality wrought by the Spirit. and this is true also of communion/The Lord's Supper. It is a spiritual reality yet we have a physical aspect also. Yet none of these things are works.
Or what about love as a fruit does not love cause us to physically do things like help people etc. I don't think that a physical work can always be called works of the law.
you said " I think that however you rest in Christ or worship God on Saturday should be done every day."
Worship for God and rest in Christ is indeed done every day. Keeping the Sabbath does not change that. but it does impact that. This is a misconception people have that keeping the Sabbath means we don't worship God or rest in Christ outside of the 7th day. Even when the law was given to Israel they were taught the Sabbath before hand in exodus 16. God provided food every day and then special provision on the Sabbath. Worship is everyday but the Sabbath is one day. but you can't rest from physical works every day so you can not have the Sabbath everyday. Thus God gives us 6 to work and one to rest. God is not simply interested in our spirituality only though this is paramount but also our physical health.
you said "My biggest hang up is I don't understand how you can work at the law and rest in Christ at the same time. I think you have to choose one or the other."
that is it we don't work at the law, I would keep the Sabbath even if the 4th commandment was not there. why Because Jesus said it was made for man by himself. and when I go and look at what was made it was a literal physical day with a very real spiritual blessing.
The Sabbath was before the law given to Moses. The Sabbath is a Gift from God to all mankind before sin had even entered the world. It is the fruit of love that causes us to accept this wonderful Gift.
We rest on it both spiritually and physically because we have a physical body also. There is nothing works about it unless I try to keep to be saved. but if that is not the motivation if the motivation is love for God and acceptance of that gift in time then one can not nor should they refer to it as works of the law.
you said" I think that the fruit of the spirit is what keeps the law."
I agree that is why there is no law against the fruit of the Spirit. but does not that fruit have real action in it?
When we love and accept God do we not get physically baptised? Yet the physical is but a public deceleration of the spiritual reality wrought by the Spirit. and this is true also of communion/The Lord's Supper. It is a spiritual reality yet we have a physical aspect also. Yet none of these things are works.
Or what about love as a fruit does not love cause us to physically do things like help people etc. I don't think that a physical work can always be called works of the law.
you said " I think that however you rest in Christ or worship God on Saturday should be done every day."
Worship for God and rest in Christ is indeed done every day. Keeping the Sabbath does not change that. but it does impact that. This is a misconception people have that keeping the Sabbath means we don't worship God or rest in Christ outside of the 7th day. Even when the law was given to Israel they were taught the Sabbath before hand in exodus 16. God provided food every day and then special provision on the Sabbath. Worship is everyday but the Sabbath is one day. but you can't rest from physical works every day so you can not have the Sabbath everyday. Thus God gives us 6 to work and one to rest. God is not simply interested in our spirituality only though this is paramount but also our physical health.
you said "My biggest hang up is I don't understand how you can work at the law and rest in Christ at the same time. I think you have to choose one or the other."
that is it we don't work at the law, I would keep the Sabbath even if the 4th commandment was not there. why Because Jesus said it was made for man by himself. and when I go and look at what was made it was a literal physical day with a very real spiritual blessing.
The Sabbath was before the law given to Moses. The Sabbath is a Gift from God to all mankind before sin had even entered the world. It is the fruit of love that causes us to accept this wonderful Gift.
We rest on it both spiritually and physically because we have a physical body also. There is nothing works about it unless I try to keep to be saved. but if that is not the motivation if the motivation is love for God and acceptance of that gift in time then one can not nor should they refer to it as works of the law.
Well, if we don't read them, what should we do with them? Write them out? Plaster them on stones? Listen to someone else read them? Sing them?
Shall we tie them in a knot?
Shall we tie them in a bow?
Shall we throw them over the shoulder like a Regimental soldier?
All scripture is profitable for reproof, correction, instruction in godliness, etc.
Of course we do remember how the 2 greatest commandments are not in the 10, but in Leviticus none the less. And the 10 must be understood in the context of the 2 biggies. And if we fufill the 2 biggies, we will also fulfill our responsibility to the 10.
Now it is important to remember, whilst we plink our theological tiddliwink or croquet our religious doily, that what the Lord really cares about is that we love others.
As to what God wants us to be, we recall the be attitudes. We gots to BE before we can attitudinalize or commandmentize.
Shall we tie them in a knot?
Shall we tie them in a bow?
Shall we throw them over the shoulder like a Regimental soldier?
All scripture is profitable for reproof, correction, instruction in godliness, etc.
Of course we do remember how the 2 greatest commandments are not in the 10, but in Leviticus none the less. And the 10 must be understood in the context of the 2 biggies. And if we fufill the 2 biggies, we will also fulfill our responsibility to the 10.
Now it is important to remember, whilst we plink our theological tiddliwink or croquet our religious doily, that what the Lord really cares about is that we love others.
As to what God wants us to be, we recall the be attitudes. We gots to BE before we can attitudinalize or commandmentize.
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K
Just because it is not from the KJV only that you base your whole posting on, and if somebody doesn't use the KJV you seem to always believe their version is wrong or changes the context.
The KJV says the same thing that I gave, that if you are sinning you are breaking the law, for sin is breaking the law.
So if you are sinning you are practicing lawlessness because you do not believe the Lords moral laws apply to you. Lawlessness means you do not believe there are standards and moral laws that apply to you, so like I said before you would feel you can live however you want.
The only way to sin is breaking (transgressing) the moral law.
A believer is not under the law if they are in Christ walking in the Spirit and love, if you commit a sin you put yourself back under the law and out of fellowship with the Lord. Now you have to repent/confess that sin and regain your fellowship, or if you continue to give into that sin and let it control you again then like James said will bring forth death.
The scripture does not say you will never sin again as you are making it out to sound, and each time you sin you put yourself back under the law by being drawn away by your own lusts.
The problem I see here and I am not suggesting that people are doing this purposely is they change the meaning of the Sabbath so that they can break the commandment but feel they are not sinning.
Here is what the law says:
Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work;
Exo 20:10 but the seventh day is a sabbath unto Jehovah thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy man-servant, nor thy maid-servant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11 for in six days Jehovah made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore Jehovah blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
so sin is not remembering it, not keeping it holy and doing your own work on it. etc.
but Men say Oh its just rest in Jesus and thus teach to break this commandment. Thus making the commandment null and void by their traditions.
They forget though that the Sabbath was made at creation and was made for all mankind as a gift from their creator before sin came into the world.
Here is what the law says:
Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work;
Exo 20:10 but the seventh day is a sabbath unto Jehovah thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy man-servant, nor thy maid-servant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11 for in six days Jehovah made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore Jehovah blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
so sin is not remembering it, not keeping it holy and doing your own work on it. etc.
but Men say Oh its just rest in Jesus and thus teach to break this commandment. Thus making the commandment null and void by their traditions.
They forget though that the Sabbath was made at creation and was made for all mankind as a gift from their creator before sin came into the world.
M
No I can read the Greek Kenneth and there is no possible way the passage could be translated as you posted it.
1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
K
Yes but the Lord did change the standard on how it is to be observed within the new covenant.
Under the written ordinances of the Mosaic laws the Apostles picking grain on the Sabbath, and the man the Lord healed that He told to pick up his bed roll and carry it was unlawful and carried the penalty to be put to death. This is why the Pharisees pointed this out to the Lord, but the Lord answered them with the understanding that if it has to be done for lively hood / to live. Then it is not breaking the Sabbath, and He also said He requires mercy not sacrifice......
1Jn 3:4 Everyone who keeps sinning is violating Torah - indeed, sin is violation of Torah.
1Jn 3:4 Every one that doeth sin doeth also lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
maybe a better question is what law exactly shows us what sin is?
1Jn 3:4 Every one that doeth sin doeth also lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
maybe a better question is what law exactly shows us what sin is?
I differ here on that, Jesus did not change the law but they did. Jesus was correcting them as to what is actually taught in the law.
Mat 12:10 And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him.
Mat 12:11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?
Mat 12:12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.
notice Jesus said it is "lawful" in other words it is within the law to do good on the Sabbath. It always was. the Jews turned it into a works based law but Jesus interpreted the law rightly they did not.
Mat 12:10 And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him.
Mat 12:11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?
Mat 12:12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.
notice Jesus said it is "lawful" in other words it is within the law to do good on the Sabbath. It always was. the Jews turned it into a works based law but Jesus interpreted the law rightly they did not.
in fact Jesus used Old testament examples in David and the priests to back his point.
and this:
Mat 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
This is old testament. Hos 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
Jesus was not changing but correcting.
and this:
Mat 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
This is old testament. Hos 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
Jesus was not changing but correcting.