Old Testament

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A

Amit

Guest
#1
Dear Forum,

My name is Amit and I am new here. I am highly interested in Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

My question to you is, what is the place of the old testament in christianity.
The old testament is often quoted in matters like messiah, homosexuals and modesty, but how can you rely on it and deny other parts of it by eating shrimps and shaving? What makes one old testament rule binding and other rule irrelevant?

Accordingly, what is the religious basis to "free" the jews from the old testament?
The Torah according to itself is binding only to those who were born jewish (while other nations must only follow the 7 rules of the sons of Noah). If someone who is born jewish accepts christ and the new testament, how does this expemt him from following the laws of the Torah according to christianity?


Thank you,

Amit
 
Jan 7, 2015
6,057
78
0
#2
It's not that Christianity denies the Old Testament, or makes certain parts of it irrelevant, or makes one exempt from doing good. But it was necessary for a change in heart and mind so one might hear what the Spirit is saying in the law and prophets.

Let me start with this, the Old testament foretold of the coming of Messiah, and also the change in Covenants....

Jeremiah 31:31-34[SUP]31 [/SUP]Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
[SUP]32 [/SUP]Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
[SUP]33 [/SUP]But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

[SUP]34 [/SUP]And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

Confirmed in the New Testament....

Hebrews 8
8 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
[SUP]2 [/SUP]A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

It was the spirit in man that had to change so he could walk in the righteousness of the law, which the Lord would write upon the hearts and minds of his people.
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
#3
The flesh is weak, and the mosaic laws of the OT showed all people their flaws and need for a change.
The Lord ushered in that change by teaching a standard of walking in total love for Him and to others, as through love will uphold the better aspects of the moral law of God. The OT is still good for understanding, knowledge, and even instruction on how to live a better life as well. As the Psalms and Proverbs give some inspirational words within them, as so do other scriptures from the OT. Some aspects from the OT did carry over to the NT covenant, as the whole OT scriptures were not done away with as some state.
It was only the 613 laws in ordinances that is reflected differently under the new covenant, even the Lord issued in a different standard on how the Sabbath is observed. Christianity just like other religions and such has, can, and will be always misused. People want to take away from the moral aspect it teaches, and stick to their personal morals of hate doctrine toward others in which the new covenant does not teach.
 
A

Amit

Guest
#4
It's not that Christianity denies the Old Testament, or makes certain parts of it irrelevant, or makes one exempt from doing good. But it was necessary for a change in heart and mind so one might hear what the Spirit is saying in the law and prophets.

Let me start with this, the Old testament foretold of the coming of Messiah, and also the change in Covenants....

Jeremiah 31:31-34[SUP]31 [/SUP]Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
[SUP]32 [/SUP]Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
[SUP]33 [/SUP]But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

[SUP]34 [/SUP]And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

Confirmed in the New Testament....

Hebrews 8
8 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
[SUP]2 [/SUP]A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

It was the spirit in man that had to change so he could walk in the righteousness of the law, which the Lord would write upon the hearts and minds of his people.
Thanks for your comment.

1. The verses in Jeremiah speak about the end of days, when all mankind believe in god. We know this because god describes these days as days when everybody knows the goodness of god (which wasn't the case 2000 years ago and isn't the case now). "And they shall teach no more"- christians still make an effort to teach and spread, so the days of this new covenant are yet to come. When it comes, I'm not sure it is going to "erase" the old one.

2. If this new covenant is between god and the israelites, it implies it should be kept only by them like the torah.

3. Jeremiah's prophecy speaks about something that is to happen. God said he will give a new covenant- did he? Many scholars and prophets wrote scrtiptures, but what makes the new testament the new covenant? God didn't give us the new testament; the people who wrote it, after god's miracles, did; unl
ike the Torah and the Quran who are attributed to God and were recited to his prophets.
 
Jan 7, 2015
6,057
78
0
#5
You must be born again of God's Spirit....

Ezekiel 36:23-28[SUP]23 [/SUP]And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
 
A

Amit

Guest
#6
The flesh is weak, and the mosaic laws of the OT showed all people their flaws and need for a change.
The Lord ushered in that change by teaching a standard of walking in total love for Him and to others, as through love will uphold the better aspects of the moral law of God. The OT is still good for understanding, knowledge, and even instruction on how to live a better life as well. As the Psalms and Proverbs give some inspirational words within them, as so do other scriptures from the OT. Some aspects from the OT did carry over to the NT covenant, as the whole OT scriptures were not done away with as some state.
It was only the 613 laws in ordinances that is reflected differently under the new covenant, even the Lord issued in a different standard on how the Sabbath is observed. Christianity just like other religions and such has, can, and will be always misused. People want to take away from the moral aspect it teaches, and stick to their personal morals of hate doctrine toward others in which the new covenant does not teach.
I still don't see a direct action of god, that tells the jews it's ok not to observe the shabbath, for example.
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
9,144
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Alabama
#7
I still don't see a direct action of god, that tells the jews it's ok not to observe the shabbath, for example.
Are you asking about the continuation of the 10 commandments or the entire Law?
 
M

mikeuk

Guest
#8
Dear Forum,

My name is Amit and I am new here. I am highly interested in Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

My question to you is, what is the place of the old testament in christianity.
The old testament is often quoted in matters like messiah, homosexuals and modesty, but how can you rely on it and deny other parts of it by eating shrimps and shaving? What makes one old testament rule binding and other rule irrelevant?

Accordingly, what is the religious basis to "free" the jews from the old testament?
The Torah according to itself is binding only to those who were born jewish (while other nations must only follow the 7 rules of the sons of Noah). If someone who is born jewish accepts christ and the new testament, how does this expemt him from following the laws of the Torah according to christianity?


Thank you,

Amit
Amit.
The OT is fundamental. I do not think much of the NT is understandable without it. Jesus refers back many times to the OT in order to make himself understood. Also jewish culture and tradition is a key to understanding what is said.

There are so many parallels between the journey of joseph, moses etc with new testament journey of Jesus - a massive book could be written about them. All sorts , from killing of new born, 40 days wilderness, word delivered on a hill, to the passover seder fulfilled in the eucharist.

The NT is revealed in the OT, the OT if fullfilled in the new. I think a lot of modern day evangelicals not only miss the richness of the stories seen in parallel also the meaning of it and that is why there are now so many differences.
Jesus also says "I came to fulfill the law, not to abolish it, not one iota will pass away etc" which needs considering in interpretation.
 
A

Amit

Guest
#9
You must be born again of God's Spirit....

Ezekiel 36:23-28[SUP]23 [/SUP]And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
You cannot just quote this, he is speaking about times when the israelites return to israel, and it has nothing to do with Christ.
God tells the israelites their heart isn't pure (because they don't follow his law = the torah). He will pure them with water (like jews always did) and give them a new heart and a strong spirit so that they can obey his law.
 
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A

Amit

Guest
#11
Amit.
The OT is fundamental. I do not think much of the NT is understandable without it. Jesus refers back many times to the OT in order to make himself understood. Also jewish culture and tradition is a key to understanding what is said.

There are so many parallels between the journey of joseph, moses etc with new testament journey of Jesus - a massive book could be written about them. All sorts , from killing of new born, 40 days wilderness, word delivered on a hill, to the passover seder fulfilled in the eucharist.

The NT is revealed in the OT, the OT if fullfilled in the new. I think a lot of modern day evangelicals not only miss the richness of the stories seen in parallel also the meaning of it and that is why there are now so many differences.
Jesus also says "I came to fulfill the law, not to abolish it, not one iota will pass away etc" which needs considering in interpretation.
I know, my question is purist and simple: where does a divine force make such a huge change in god's own law.
 
Jan 7, 2015
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#12
Thanks for your comment.

1. The verses in Jeremiah speak about the end of days, when all mankind believe in god. We know this because god describes these days as days when everybody knows the goodness of god (which wasn't the case 2000 years ago and isn't the case now). "And they shall teach no more"- christians still make an effort to teach and spread, so the days of this new covenant are yet to come. When it comes, I'm not sure it is going to "erase" the old one.

2. If this new covenant is between god and the israelites, it implies it should be kept only by them like the torah.

3. Jeremiah's prophecy speaks about something that is to happen. God said he will give a new covenant- did he? Many scholars and prophets wrote scrtiptures, but what makes the new testament the new covenant? God didn't give us the new testament; the people who wrote it, after god's miracles, did; unl
ike the Torah and the Quran who are attributed to God and were recited to his prophets.
You are correct "after those days" refers to the fulfillment of all the Lord told the Jews would befall them after the abomination of desolation was set up and destruction of Jerusalem....which Jesus also confirmed would be after the tribulation of "those days" referring to the time of Jacobs trouble. This time would also be complete when the fullness of the Gentiles would come in, and as Paul said then would ungodliness be removed from Jacob...fulfilling that prophecy in Jeremiah.

But Jesus Christ (the Messiah) was the one who brought in the New covenant, even though many of the Jews still reject Him as Messiah.

Matthew 26:28
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Jesus Christ is the only way to have your sins forgiven...no other faith has this promise.

Hebrews 9:11-28[SUP]11 [/SUP]But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
[SUP]28 [/SUP]So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
 
A

Amit

Guest
#13
I would also like to point out something: every time the new testament forbids something, it's not by "forbidding it", it's by showing anger that some people do the forbidden thing. The anger comes from the old testament rules which forbids such things.
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
9,144
614
113
70
Alabama
#14
The entire 613 laws of the torah
Okay. The ten commandments were nothing more than the embodiment of eternal principles that are rooted in the reality of God and man's relationship to God and his neighbor. Every law represented in the Torah falls under the heading of one of these ten commandments. The New testament as well as the OT are built on these generalized principles. Every other law was simply commentary on what was involved for Israel to faithfully keep those commandments.
 
Jan 7, 2015
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#15
You cannot just quote this, he is speaking about times when the israelites return to israel, and it has nothing to do with Christ.
God tells the israelites their heart isn't pure (because they don't follow his law = the torah). He will pure them with water (like jews always did) and give them a new heart and a strong spirit so that they can obey his law.
Being given a new heart and mind, and being given God's Spirit is all a part of the Covenant Christ brought in by being born again and made a new creation in Christ.

John 3:1-103 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
[SUP]2 [/SUP]The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these"
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
#16
I still don't see a direct action of god, that tells the jews it's ok not to observe the shabbath, for example.

He did not give a direct command to not observe the Sabbath.
He only showed changes by examples of His apostles picking grain and the healed man carrying his bed roll on how the Sabbath is now to be observed. The NT shows that the Sabbath is still observed, just not in the same standards and death penalties of the mosaic ordinances for breaking it. The Lord makes a point that if you are doing good, such as helping others, supporting your family properly, and such it is not breaking the Sabbath.
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
#17
Okay. The ten commandments were nothing more than the embodiment of eternal principles that are rooted in the reality of God and man's relationship to God and his neighbor. Every law represented in the Torah falls under the heading of one of these ten commandments. The New testament as well as the OT are built on these generalized principles. Every other law was simply commentary on what was involved for Israel to faithfully keep those commandments.


Actually that is not true for the sacrificial laws are not still upheld under those laws, as we do not have to sacrifice animals for sin because of our Lord's one time perfect sacrifice.

The cleansing rituals and food restrictions no longer apply or upheld by those laws, as they do not apply under the new covenant either.

We also are not subject to the curses/punishments for breaking them.
Yet by walking in Spirit and love we will uphold not stealing, lying, coveting, idolatry, adultery, and so on......As walking in the Spirit upholds the moral aspect of God's law, but we are not held to uphold the ordinances of it.
 
A

Amit

Guest
#18
He did not give a direct command to not observe the Sabbath.
He only showed changes by examples of His apostles picking grain and the healed man carrying his bed roll on how the Sabbath is now to be observed. The NT shows that the Sabbath is still observed, just not in the same standards and death penalties of the mosaic ordinances for breaking it. The Lord makes a point that if you are doing good, such as helping others, supporting your family properly, and such it is not breaking the Sabbath.
I find this interpretation too liberal. In biblical context, I would take it as saying that the laws of Shabbath etc are not the only thing, and they are not doing any good if your soul and humanity are doing wrong. It's a very basic jewish idea, that manners are older than the Torah. From this to radical violation of 90% of god's law?
 
Jan 7, 2015
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#19
I would also like to point out something: every time the new testament forbids something, it's not by "forbidding it", it's by showing anger that some people do the forbidden thing. The anger comes from the old testament rules which forbids such things.
All unrighteousness is sin, and God still forbids us to continue in sin.

Romans 6:15
What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

But here's the problem, no matter how hard you try you will never be justified by the works of the law....you've already failed, and so has every man who has ever sinned. (for all have sinned) But Jesus is the only one who never sinned, and therefore He became the perfect sacrifice for our sins (lamb without spot).


Jesus Christ is the only way to have your sins forgiven, He is that Prophet God said for Israel to listen to...

Deuteronomy 18:18-19[SUP]18 [/SUP]I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him."

Listen to Him...

John 8:24
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
9,144
614
113
70
Alabama
#20
Actually that is not true for the sacrificial laws are not still upheld under those laws, as we do not have to sacrifice animals for sin because of our Lord's one time perfect sacrifice.

The cleansing rituals and food restrictions no longer apply or upheld by those laws, as they do not apply under the new covenant either.

We also are not subject to the curses/punishments for breaking them.
Yet by walking in Spirit and love we will uphold not stealing, lying, coveting, idolatry, adultery, and so on......As walking in the Spirit upholds the moral aspect of God's law, but we are not held to uphold the ordinances of it.
That is not what I was implying. The same rudimentary principles of the 10 commandments have not changed. What has changed is the methodology in which these commandment are maintained. For example, we are still commanded "You shall not commit adultery." That does not mean that the extended laws of the Old Covenant that regulated that commandment are still exorcized in the New covenant.