Old Testament

[kennethcadwell]

I find this interpretation too liberal. In biblical context, I would take it as saying that the laws of Shabbath etc are not the only thing, and they are not doing any good if your soul and humanity are doing wrong. It's a very basic jewish idea, that manners are older than the Torah. From this to radical violation of 90% of god's law?

That maybe but we do have an example from the OT in Numbers 15:32-36 of a man who broke the law by picking up sticks on the Sabbath. The punishment given by God was for him to be put to death.

Now you take that with the NT examples given, and one would see the standard had changed.

 

[MarcR]

Dear Forum,

My name is Amit and I am new here. I am highly interested in Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

My question to you is, what is the place of the old testament in christianity.
The old testament is often quoted in matters like messiah, homosexuals and modesty, but how can you rely on it and deny other parts of it by eating shrimps and shaving? What makes one old testament rule binding and other rule irrelevant?

Accordingly, what is the religious basis to "free" the jews from the old testament?
The Torah according to itself is binding only to those who were born jewish (while other nations must only follow the 7 rules of the sons of Noah). If someone who is born jewish accepts christ and the new testament, how does this expemt him from following the laws of the Torah according to christianity?


Thank you,

Amit

Amit,

As a Jew, who believes that Yeshua (Jesus) fulfills messianic prophesy, I would like to share my perspective.

I grew up in a Conservative Jewish congregation, learned Hebrew and prepared for Bar Mitzvah. In High School, I read the New Testament to discover what my Christian friends believed; and saw in it a very plausible fulfillment of Messianic prophesy. I shelved it at that time only because I saw no evidence that my 'Christian' friends believed it. At that time the omly evidence I saw of Christianity was inquisition, crusades, progroms, and antisemitism. My reading did raise questions though.
I wondered who else Psa 22, Isa 53, and Zec 12:10 could be speaking of, if not Yeshua. Shortly before my 30th birthday I met some Christians whose actions and attitudes reflected what the New Testament indicated one should find in a believer.

In the course of walking with Yeshua for more than 45 years, I have come to these understandings:

The intent of the Law was to demonstrate that mankind cannot please a Holy God through His own effort.

The substitutionary atonement of animal sacrifice demonstrates this principle.

In Gen 22 when Yetschak assked:

Ge 22:7-8
7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?
8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
KJV

God will provide himself a lamb the double take is the same in the Hebrew as in the English. God will provide (of / by) Himself a Lamb (Yeshua).

The fact that sacrifice of animals as a substiutionary atonement ended shortly after Yeshua's substitutionary sacrifice of Himself confirms the principle.

I believe that the intent of the dietary laws and of not shaving was to make a distinction between Israel and surrounding nations. There is absolutely no reason that a Jewish believer can't continue to observe these things if he/she doesn't impose them on others, and doesn't rely on them for salvation..

 

[DesiredHaven]

That maybe but we do have an example from the OT in Numbers 15:32-36 of a man who broke the law by picking up sticks on the Sabbath. The punishment given by God was for him to be put to death.

Now you take that with the NT examples given, and one would see the standard had changed.

I was looking at this, and this would bother me for quiet awhile, I hadnt returned to this either I should though, because I was beginning to look at this a little differetly, but... Im still unsure

But compare these verses

For example,

Exodus 35:3 Ye shall ***kindle** no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.

And then we have this little incident

Numbers 15:32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered ***sticks*** upon the sabbath day.

And he was to be stoned for it...

Im thinking, what? That just sounded kind of harsh (but who am I?) but it bugged me, and I was like, how do I make sense of this ?

But here look, tell me you can catch the intent of the gathering of sticks here...

Prov 26:21 As coals are to burning coals, and ***wood to*** fire; (((so is))) a contentious man to ***to kindle*** strife.

The "gathering of" sticks (even wood) was to the intent of being contentious, to "kindleth a strife"

James 3:5 **Even so** the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. **Behold**, how great a matter a little fire **kindleth**!

Like a fast even for "strife and debate" for a day which he addresses in Isaiah also

Again...

Exodus 35:3 Ye shall ***kindle*** no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.

Now.... all that to show this verse

Isaiah 50:11 Behold, all ye that ***kindle*** a fire, that compass yourselves about **with sparks**: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have **kindled**. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow.

Now we got kindle a fire and sparks together (above and below) and here out of the mouth

Job 41:19 Out of his mouth go burning lamps, and **sparks** of fire leap out.

Okay, I am just looking at this, no one stone me, its surely not a complete thing, just something I was looking at

 

[Elin]

Dear Forum,

My name is Amit and I am new here. I am highly interested in Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

My question to you is, what is the place of the old testament in christianity.
The old testament is often quoted in matters like messiah, homosexuals and modesty, but how can you rely on it and deny other parts of it by eating shrimps and shaving? What makes one old testament rule binding and other rule irrelevant?

Accordingly, what is the religious basis to "free" the jews from the old testament?
The Torah according to itself is binding only to those who were born jewish (while other nations must only follow the 7 rules of the sons of Noah). If someone who is born jewish accepts christ and the new testament, how does this expemt him from following the laws of the Torah according to Christianity?

Hmmmmm. . .(he's back!)

Well, these questions are answered by Christ Jesus himself.

The first thing we learn from Jesus is that his revelation applies only to the Jews
who believe in God's Promise (Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ) to Abraham (Ge 12:3).
All others, Jew and Gentile alike, are condemned as unbelievers (Jn 3:18, 36).

The second thing we learn from Jesus is that all the law is fulfilled in his two simple
commandments: love of God and love of neighbor (Mt 22:37-39), where the first one
fulfills all law regarding duty to God (including the Sabbath), and the second one fulfills
all law regarding duty to neighbor.
There are no other laws of God to obey and fulfill.

One need practice none but these two of the 613 laws to be in obedience to all God's laws.

And then that Hebrew of Hebrews himself, the apostle Paul from Tarsus in his letters to the
churches, gives us the revelation he received personally from Christ Jesus himself after his death,
which fully spells out and applies to the new covenant (Lk 22:20) these truths of Christ Jesus.

 

[CRC]

Interestingly, the New Testament does indicate that the Law covenant, a contract God made with ancient Israel, is obsolete and hence not binding on Christians. (Ephesians 2:15; Hebrews 8:13) This Law covenant is included in the Old Testament. But there is much more to the Old Testament than the Law covenant!
There are three components of the Old Testament that make it important to you. What are they? (1) Relevant history, (2) upbuilding poetry, and (3) faith-inspiring prophecy, all of immense value to modern-day Christians.

 

[Elin]

Hmmmmm. . . . .

 

[KohenMatt]

The Old Testament is the foundation of Christianity and the New Testament. The Old Testament was the Bible Jesus used and comprised the Scriptures He always quoted from. Without the OT, there is no Jesus.

All of it is applicable for all of us today, either physically or spiritually.

 

[Elin]

The Old Testament is the foundation of Christianity and the New Testament. The Old Testament was the Bible Jesus used and comprised the Scriptures He always quoted from.
Without the OT, there is no Jesus.

The same can be said of Noah, Shem and Arphaxad.

All of it is applicable for all of us today, either physically or spiritually.

So we are allowed to "spiritualize" the text?

Does that apply to the NT also?

 

[oldhermit]

The same can be said of Noah, Shem and Arphaxad.


So we are allowed to "spiritualize" the text?

Does that apply to the NT also?

I do not think he is talking about spiritualizing the OT. I think he is talking about generalizing truths from the pragmatic examples.

 

[Elin]

I do not think he is talking about spiritualizing the OT. I think he is talking about generalizing truths from the pragmatic examples.

Is the law a pragmatic example?

 

[KohenMatt]

The same can be said of Noah, Shem and Arphaxad.

I don't know what you mean by that.

So we are allowed to "spiritualize" the text?

Does that apply to the NT also?

Yes and Yes. As well as physically when applicable.

 

[KohenMatt]

I do not think he is talking about spiritualizing the OT. I think he is talking about generalizing truths from the pragmatic examples.

True. I also mean applying specific laws physically and/or spiritually.

 

[oldhermit]

Is the law a pragmatic example?

What I mean by a pragmatic example are the life experiences of the character of the OT that have been recorded. The lives and actions of those characters hold a treasure trove of generalized principles that are as true and as relevant for us as they were for them. The same is true for the fundamental principles upon which the Law was established.

 

[john832]

That maybe but we do have an example from the OT in Numbers 15:32-36 of a man who broke the law by picking up sticks on the Sabbath. The punishment given by God was for him to be put to death.

Now you take that with the NT examples given, and one would see the standard had changed.

Uh, you sure?

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Seems to me that the result of breaking the Law (I John 3:4) is still death.

 

[oldhermit]

True. I also mean applying specific laws physically and/or spiritually.

Observance of the ceremonial law is meaningless. As much now to the Jew as to the Gentile who was never obligated to the Law.

 

[john832]

Observance of the ceremonial law in meaningless. As much now to the Jew as to the Gentile who was never obligated to the Law.

What do you mean ceremonial Law? Can you explain that to us?

 

[oldhermit]

What do you mean ceremonial Law? Can you explain that to us?

Everything that was extemporaneous to the 10 commandments.

 

[KohenMatt]

Observance of the ceremonial law in meaningless. As much now to the Jew as to the Gentile who was never obligated to the Law.

That's why I said "physically and/or spiritually."

 

[john832]

Everything that was extemporaneous to the 10 commandments.

What ceremony was involved here?

Deu 22:8 When thou buildest a new house, then thou shalt make a battlement for thy roof, that thou bring not blood upon thine house, if any man fall from thence.

 

[oldhermit]

What ceremony was involved here?

Deu 22:8 When thou buildest a new house, then thou shalt make a battlement for thy roof, that thou bring not blood upon thine house, if any man fall from thence.

That was a regulation for how the Jews were to build their houses to insure the safety of guest. This would fall under the basic law of "love thy neighbor as thyself." There regulation for the building of the house was extemporaneous to the fundamental principle.