Cross?

[Willie-T]

Everything was so much better back then.... medicine, transportation, food, even the computer you're typing on, and the electric lights and heat you are using. Yeah, right.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Since my NAILS question hasn't been answered (for obvious reasons), I might as well ask another question:

If Jesus was crucified on a pole or on a stake as some allege, then why do we read:

"And set up over his HEAD his accusation written, THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS." (Matthew 27:37)

???

IOW, if Christ was crucified on a pole or on a stake like this...



...then why don't we read:

"And set up over his HANDS his accusation written, THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS." (NONSENSE 27:37)

???

The more time that I spend on this forum, the more that I'm inclined to think that some people here believe that Christ died so that we can argue about the most asinine things in the world as opposed to trying to actually seek and to save the lost and to build up the saints.

 

[kennethcadwell]

If you are willing to spend the money it would take today, and wait the hundreds of years some of those things took to build, you too could have a home with sixty foot thick walls. We have what we have today because we will not spend what it would cost to duplicate the old stuff....... not because the very same things cannot be built today.

The thing is with the equipment we have now days it would not take hundreds of years to build those same structures now.
So comparing how much money it would cost now days, to how long it took to build them back then does not match up.

If our builders can build a house in under a week, they can build a pyramid in less then a year or two....

Plus they have already talked to some architects and if the plans ever get approved, some have stated they can have a new temple in Jerusalem built in as little as 6 months.

 

[DesiredHaven]

If you are willing to spend the money it would take today, and wait the hundreds of years some of those things took to build, you too could have a home with sixty foot thick walls. We have what we have today because we will not spend what it would cost to duplicate the old stuff....... not because the very same things cannot be built today.

I just overspent $8,000 for a new roof (that costed more then that) and its been leaking all over the place for three years and no one can seem to fix it by our trusty blue walmart tarps (which are keeping us dry inside)

It was fine for the last 30 years.

My experience tells me people dont know what they are doing these days even though folks have known what roof is, and what is does (even as man has needed one for thousands of years).

But I am stuck with an indoor water catchment system I didnt opt for (verses a roof).

Im better off with a tarp though, amazingingly I thought, what on earth were we thinking? We can do far better with an investment of plastic tarps then these guys way overpriced newly installed roofs

You should see the workmanship its laughable

 

[Willie-T]

Since my NAILS question hasn't been answered (for obvious reasons), I might as well ask another question:

If Jesus was crucified on a pole or on a stake as some allege, then why do we read:

"And set up over his HEAD his accusation written, THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS." (Matthew 27:37)

???

IOW, if Christ was crucified on a pole or on a stake like this...

View attachment 99306

...then why don't we read:

"And set up over his HANDS his accusation written, THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS." (NONSENSE 27:37)

???

The more time that I spend on this forum, the more that I'm inclined to think that some people here believe that Christ died so that we can argue about the most asinine things in the world as opposed to trying to actually seek and to save the lost and to build up the saints.

Humm, I wonder if we cruised back through the archives, just who we might find starting most of the arguments?

 

[DesiredHaven]

Humm, I wonder if we cruised back through the archives, just who we might find starting most of the arguments?

Thats really unfair of you, because you know he is never wrong

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Humm, I wonder if we cruised back through the archives, just who we might find starting most of the arguments?

"Starting"?

It most certainly wouldn't be me.

Anyhow, you obviously think yourself wiser than the scriptural record, so I'll just leave you in your ignorance as I found you.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Everything was so much better back then.... medicine, transportation, food, even the computer you're typing on, and the electric lights and heat you are using. Yeah, right.

Who said everything was better?
It has been brought out in studies that carpenters had to be better at their hands, and stronger then what we have now days because they did not have the tools we have now days that made things easier. If you are going to tell me that a person is just as strong by running an electric sander, or skill saw, and such then that of a man who every single day had to use his pure personal brute strength to cut, smooth down, and build things is ridiculous to even think.
Yes technology is better, but it also has made people softer and less reliable on our own abilities.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Since my NAILS question hasn't been answered (for obvious reasons), I might as well ask another question:

If Jesus was crucified on a pole or on a stake as some allege, then why do we read:

"And set up over his HEAD his accusation written, THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS." (Matthew 27:37)

???

IOW, if Christ was crucified on a pole or on a stake like this...

View attachment 99306

...then why don't we read:

"And set up over his HANDS his accusation written, THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS." (NONSENSE 27:37)

???

The more time that I spend on this forum, the more that I'm inclined to think that some people here believe that Christ died so that we can argue about the most asinine things in the world as opposed to trying to actually seek and to save the lost and to build up the saints.

Look the shape of the cross rather it was a pole, t-shaped, or x-shaped does not matter.
The gospel is not about the cross, it is about what the Lord did for us on the cross. Focusing to much just on the cross and its shape takes away from the true meaning.

 

[Willie-T]

I just overspent $8,000 for a new roof (that costed more then that) and its been leaking all over the place for three years and no one can seem to fix it by our trusty blue walmart tarps (which are keeping us dry inside)

It was fine for the last 30 years.

My experience tells me people dont know what they are doing these days even though folks have known what roof is, and what is does (even as man has needed one for thousands of years).

But I am stuck with an indoor water catchment system I didnt opt for (verses a roof).

Im better off with a tarp though, amazingingly I thought, what on earth were we thinking? We can do far better with an investment of plastic tarps then these guys way overpriced newly installed roofs

You should see the workmanship its laughable

Do you remember how long the original contract told you that roof was supposed to last? I've never seen the contract, but I can pretty well tell you that you got quite a bit more years than they promised you.

What is the problem? You COULD have found a company that would have guaranteed you twice the time, (and it would have lasted that long, or longer), IF you had chosen to spend the money it would have cost.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Look the shape of the cross rather it was a pole, t-shaped, or x-shaped does not matter.
The gospel is not about the cross, it is about what the Lord did for us on the cross. Focusing to much just on the cross and its shape takes away from the true meaning.

You're telling me that it doesn't matter?

That was my whole point.

As if that's not bad enough, the Bible record still certainly seems to indicate that Christ was crucified on the type of cross which is commonly associated with His crucifixion and to my present knowledge the earliest depiction that we have of a crucifixion around that time period matches the same, yet some people still choose to believe contrary.

 

[Willie-T]

The same thing still applies today. I can hire the best that I can afford to build what people will pay... about $450,000 for a home. And it will, truthfully, not be all that much of a home.

Or, I can build the same house for 3M, and it will be quite a home.... but only if the clients are willing to pay for $200 an hour craftsmen. Most aren't willing.

 

[kennethcadwell]

You're telling me that it doesn't matter?

That was my whole point.

As if that's not bad enough, the Bible record still certainly seems to indicate that Christ was crucified on the type of cross which is commonly associated with His crucifixion and to my present knowledge the earliest depiction that we have of a crucifixion around that time period matches the same, yet some people still choose to believe contrary.

Well I have seen a couple of different programs devoted to this issue, and what type of cross was used.
The shape does not matter, but the common and most used shapes by the Romans was the t-shaped and the x-shaped crosses. Both have been widely support by history scholars on which one Jesus was crucified on, and given convincing debates for both.
I was in the Catholic church from 2005 to 2009 and left them for inconsistences in teaching, but while I was in that church they had a shadow box given to them by the Vatican to put on display for a year at the church. Inside the shadow box was a splinter of wood the Vatican stated came from the cross Jesus was crucified on. If true then the t-shape wins out as that is the one they have always held to, but I don't put to much stock on things from the Catholic church.

 

[kennethcadwell]

The same thing still applies today. I can hire the best that I can afford to build what people will pay... about $450,000 for a home. And it will, truthfully, not be all that much of a home.

Or, I can build the same house for 3M, and it will be quite a home.... but only if the clients are willing to pay for $200 an hour craftsmen. Most aren't willing.

Well this all depends on the contractor and if they are greedy or not, so we can not leave out that half of the equation.
I have known some contractors who build the same size house with the same quality if not better for a lesser price. Just because the cost is higher does not always mean the quality is......

 

[DesiredHaven]

Do you remember how long the original contract told you that roof was supposed to last? I've never seen the contract, but I can pretty well tell you that you got quite a bit more years than they promised you.

What is the problem? You COULD have found a company that would have guaranteed you twice the time, (and it would have lasted that long, or longer), IF you had chosen to spend the money it would have cost.

It was $18,000 for 2400 square feet is what we paid, every other estimate come in many thousands below that from $10,000 -$12,000, we thought we were getting what we paid for. Their lovely nail guns shot right through our cedar ceilings charged me for flashings (which divert water from the house) which we never received and put back the old flashings with holes in them backwards. Never left attic shingles and used men from another country to install it.

Those who gave us an estimate for $12,000 hand nail the shingles and they are who we are going with to fix this mess as soon as this comes to a close,

In breif, they just screwed up (royally) and on so many levels (and its too much to go into here) but after trying to be nice about it (in my own gullible way) pointing out the obvious, the contracts (and their fraud) and had been willing to work with them (but to no avail) I caved in after a couple of years of trying, handed it back over to my husband who has three has lawyers handling all of it. They really left a trail of wrongs he is more willing then I am to take them to the bank (for everything).

In the mean time we have tarps over head, sometimes water comes in past the same, and he goes up and readjusts them as needed. Whatever, we will deal.

 

[Willie-T]

Well this all depends on the contractor and if they are greedy or not, so we can not leave out that half of the equation.
I have known some contractors who build the same size house with the same quality if not better for a lesser price. Just because the cost is higher does not always mean the quality is......

Which will cost more....... a floor that is installed where the installers are allowed to be within a half an inch out of complete level throughout 4,000 feet, or one where the installers are not allowed to have more than 1/16 of an inch variance?

Which would you be willing to pay for? It's all in what we are willing to pay for. And the same is true for every one of the forty-some trades involved in building a house.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Which will cost more....... a floor that is installed where the installers are allowed to be within a half an inch out of complete level throughout 4,000 feet, or one where the installers are not allowed to have more than 1/16 of an inch variance?

Which would you be willing to pay for? It's all in what we are willing to pay for. And the same is true for every one of the forty-some trades involved in building a house.

Look I am not a carpenter but I would go with the leveler alignment, yet you are still comparing apples to oranges and leaving out the other variable of how much they charge as it does not necessarily deem better work.

You can have 5 contractors come to your house who all do not allow their installers to be more then 1/16 of an inch out of level, and out of those 5 pretty much every single one of them will quote a different price for installation. One may even be hundreds of dollars more then the others.
Quality does not always come with higher rates.........

 

[Willie-T]

It was $18,000 for 2400 square feet is what we paid, every other estimate come in many thousands below that from $10,000 -$12,000, we thought we were getting what we paid for. Their lovely nail guns shot right through our cedar ceilings charged me for flashings (which divert water from the house) which we never received and put back the old flashings with holes in them backwards. Never left attic shingles and used men from another country to install it.

Those who gave us an estimate for $12,000 hand nail the shingles and they are who we are going with to fix this mess as soon as this comes to a close,

In breif, they just screwed up (royally) and on so many levels (and its too much to go into here) but after trying to be nice about it (in my own gullible way) pointing out the obvious, the contracts (and their fraud) and had been willing to work with them (but to no avail) I caved in after a couple of years of trying, handed it back over to my husband who has three has lawyers handling all of it. They really left a trail of wrongs he is more willing then I am to take them to the bank (for everything).

In the mean time we have tarps over head, sometimes water comes in past the same, and he goes up and readjusts them as needed. Whatever, we will deal.

So..... if you are happy with the new guys you are hiring, there must be a reason. How have you decided on these guys?

Your own answer will tell you a lot.

 

[DesiredHaven]

So..... if you are happy with the new guys you are hiring, there must be a reason. How have you decided on these guys?

Your own answer will tell you a lot.

Number 1 he is a licensed, HAAG certified master roofer and fully insured who was our formal inspector (who advertises fixing roofs and not replacing them) who condmend this roof (and told us he couldnt help us in this case). Number 2, he was the one who advised us to get an attorney (which I put off) but was great advice. He also assured me that if we needed him for court he would be there (so he has been with me right from the beginning). He has proved himself to be honest, and reliable, and has gone the extra mile for us more then a time or two during this whole thing ( he seems to have more integrity then most) his actions speak louder then his words. Number three his word agrees with another trsuted inspector (as I crossed checked him) and also with our insurance companies structural engineer's. Number 5 the first lawyer reccomended another man (who he himself used) and who come over to estimate (when we contacted him) had reccomended him (once again) to us. And in the midst of all of this after contacting our realtor from 12 years back (who had showed us this home) and she too highly reccomended him to me (told me thats who she refers everyone to. So there is only one roofer reccomended as equally as him, and cant use him because I have a commercially sized glass atrium in the center of my home where the roof needs to be integrated into, and he does do anything commercial but residential stuff. And he reccomended him, and that says alot when your competitors have respect for your work and reccomend you and have good things to say about you.

Lastly, my husband. On his route at work has seen their work and says they use American workers, and do all their nailing by hand (no guns) and alot of happy customers.

And since he has been aquainted with our problems from the beginning, foresaw the coming problems we are having now (being right on about everything) and we now have damages, he also is experienced in general contracting, so he would have to be the man.

Besides, no one else will touch our roof now (for the most part) because of what the first did and the mess involved. Because it was custom built and everyones really confident they want the job until they look closer at it.

But they really shouldnt have opened this can of worms if they didnt get how it was put together. The smart thing to do was to say, never saw anything like this (we'd hate to wreck it) and we would rather not touch it.

But I had to go through all of this to find them.

And all this has nothing whatsover to do with a wooden cross, but it wouldnt surprise me if a contractor of today couldnt duplicate what a common man could do back in that day.

It just wouldnt surprise me is all I am saying.

 

[Willie-T]

Number 1 he is a licensed, HAAG certified master roofer and fully insured who was our formal inspector (who advertises fixing roofs and not replacing them) who condmend this roof (and told us he couldnt help us in this case). Number 2, he was the one who advised us to get an attorney (which I put off) but was great advice. He also assured me that if we needed him for court he would be there (so he has been with me right from the beginning). He has proved himself to be honest, and reliable, and has gone the extra mile for us more then a time or two during this whole thing ( he seems to have more integrity then most) his actions speak louder then his words. Number three his word agrees with another trsuted inspector (as I crossed checked him) and also with our insurance companies structural engineer's. Number 5 the first lawyer reccomended another man (who he himself used) and who come over to estimate (when we contacted him) had reccomended him (once again) to us. And in the midst of all of this after contacting our realtor from 12 years back (who had showed us this home) and she too highly reccomended him to me (told me thats who she refers everyone to. So there is only one roofer reccomended as equally as him, and cant use him because I have a commercially sized glass atrium in the center of my home where the roof needs to be integrated into, and he does do anything commercial but residential stuff. And he reccomended him, and that says alot when your competitors have respect for your work and reccomend you and have good things to say about you.

Lastly, my husband. On his route at work has seen their work and says they use American workers, and do all their nailing by hand (no guns) and alot of happy customers.

And since he has been aquainted with our problems from the beginning, foresaw the coming problems we are having now (being right on about everything) and we now have damages, he also is experienced in general contracting, so he would have to be the man.

Besides, no one else will touch our roof now (for the most part) because of what the first did and the mess involved. Because it was custom built and everyones really confident they want the job until they look closer at it.

But they really shouldnt have opened this can of worms if they didnt get how it was put together. The smart thing to do was to say, never saw anything like this (we'd hate to wreck it) and we would rather not touch it.

But I had to go through all of this to find them.

And all this has nothing whatsover to do with a wooden cross, but it wouldnt surprise me if a contractor of today couldnt duplicate what a common man could do back in that day.

It just wouldnt surprise me is all I am saying.

Sounds like you've got your roof under control now. Good work!

And as for the cross, that is my point, the "t" was most likely never used in that situation. It would have taken endless hours to have constructed a cross such as is always depicted... and all this happened in a very short time span. As I have said, yes, it "could" have eventually been done in about two weeks (maybe even more) by a good craftsman. But it's highly unlikely someone of that caliber would be wasted on a rough and tumble death squad. Those guys would be off building palaces..... not assigned to an outpost in Israel. (Remember, this person would have to already be there, ready and waiting....... It would have taken weeks to get him there from Rome (or wherever he might be).