SAVED BY WORKS

[BradC]

Hebrews 9 is not talking about how he has paid future sin for the believer. It is talking about how Christ's sacrifice pays for those who come to him the right way thru out all time. For Jesus died for the sins of the entire world so as to offer the free gift of salvation to everyone. That does not mean everyone is saved. A person has to properly receive Christ's love gift and then not throw it away once they have it. For gifts can be destroyed or ruined. Oh, and before you say it, in Hebrews 10, the blood of goats and bulls never took away sin. That is why they had to revisit the same past sins over and over every year. The blood of goats and bullls was only a temporary covering of sin. Jesus' one time sacrifice forever takes away our past sins once we confess our sins to Jesus Christ. We no longer have to keep going to a human priest to worry about our past sin anymore. It says nothing about our future sin being forgiven. 1 John 2:1 says we are to sin not and if we do sin, we have an advocate we can go to named Jesus Christ. For if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9).

You are so intellectually contrived in your understanding that it is really messing up your faith. Christ died for all sin Jason and you can't change that fact. The blood was shed for the remission of all sin, for all people, for all of their life here on earth. All sin has been judged on the cross and we who have believed have been justified from all sin and yes even the sin that we have not committed yet in our experience in time. On the cross all sin was considered and judged. Christ is our advocate with the Father 'when and if we sin'. As our advocate Christ represents us to the court of heaven with the Father and proclaims that he alone paid for the sin of the one who has just sinned or 'when and if we sin'. This advocacy can only happen if all sin was judged through death and it has been judged once and for all, for all have sinned. Jason, you don't get that and you think that when we sin we have to confess our sin to keep being justified (or cleaned).

To you justification is an ongoing thing and it is not. The sin we commit we confess so that we can have fellowship with the living God through the Spirit. You make is something it is not and you put a burden on believers that is not there. This is all done by faith and we are restored by the grace of God. Love covers a multitude of sins because of the blood of Christ and not because of our confession of sin. This is a works process that you insist upon that is not the will of God nor is it supported by the gospel. Sorry Jason, you just don't have it right and that is why you need to repent and turn from that understanding. Don't worry, no one is condoning a lifestyle of sin, just a lifestyle that is according to grace and faith rest in the finished work of Christ.

 

[SeaBass]

my salvation is by works !!

by the works of Jesus Christ, who is the strength of my right arm, my portion and inheritance!

He said to these bones, "rise up!"
and i live!

Christ's works are for everyone, so everyone will be saved?

 

[SeaBass]

do i make myself a slave, or am i redeemed at the market by my Master?

if it were by my will, i fall short. if it were by my volition, my wages would be His obligation and my hours of my own choosing.

praise God! it is by His strength, His will, His mercy and His righteousness!
for i am not saved having my own righteousness, but having been clothed with Him, by a righteousness that is by faith in Him!!

HE has counted the cost, paid it in full and both equipped His servant for every good work, and sent him out to do His work. He owns the field, His are the wages, His are the livestock, His is the grain. His is the food and the water by which His servant lives! His is the home in which His servant finds shelter, and His is the bed in which He gives His servant rest!

all glory! all honor! all power! forever is His throne!

You are a slave to what you choose to be a slave to. Those in Rom 6:16-18 went from being servants of sin, to choosing to obey from the heart that form of doctrine to then being freed from sins becoming servants of righteousness. Very simple.

 

[SeaBass]

Eph 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
KJV


God's position is clear. If you want to argue with Him; how can I hope to persuade you of anything?

Curious in how Eph 2:9 supposedly eliminates all works from being saved when Eph 2:10 requires works.

 

[SeaBass]

That's exactly what Paul said in Ephesians 2:8-10. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto/for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. What part of Ephesians 2:8-10 do you not understand? Saved through faith, not works, created in Christ Jesus unto/for good works. *These good works are works of obedience which follow "have been saved through faith."

Of course Paul did not say that. Paul clearly said: Romans 10:3 - (THOSE JEWS WERE NOT SAVED BECAUSE) For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who BELIEVES. THEY DID NOT BELIEVE. Now once again, read Philippians 3:9 - and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by FAITH. *NOT BY WORKS.

Show me the word "work" or "works" in Romans 10:3. Paul said they were lost because they would not submit to the righteousness of God because they did not believe, *instead they set out to established their "own righteousness by works," just as you are.

One is lost and remains lost until he first BELIEVES. (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:2-6 etc..). Those who BELIEVE have submitted to the righteousness of God (Romans 10:3-4) which is by FAITH (Philippians 3:9). *Not by works. Children of the devil do not practice righteousness in order to become children of God, but BECAUSE they are children of God (1 John 3:10). You have it completely backwards. You have the tail wagging the dog, the cart before the horse.

That statement is the epitome of irony.

Choosing to believe the gospel is an obedient act of man, as we see in Romans 10:16. We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. Believing in our heart (Romans 10:9) is more than just a mental assent of the mind (James 2:19). I am avoiding nothing and am reading what Paul clearly stated in Romans 10:3,4; Philippians 3:9 and Ephesians 2:8-10 and he clearly said we are saved through belief/faith and not by works. You are reading your biased church doctrine into what Paul said. So is choosing to believe the gospel an act of obedience or an act of disobedience? In John 6:29, did Jesus say, "this is the work (singular) of God, that you believe in in whom He sent?" Or did Jesus say here is the list of works (plural) of God (work the works of God - vs. 28) that God requires for you to accomplish before you will be saved?

What other requirements do you see mentioned in Romans 10:4 in connection with - Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who _______? What is the only word here that fills in the blank? Simply BELIEVES. What about Romans 1:16? For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who ______? What is the only word here that fills in the blank? Simply BELIEVES. When will you BELIEVE?

In Romans 10:3-4, submit to the righteousness of God = BELIEVES. By doing so, they would have obeyed the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16). The righteousness of God which is by FAITH and not by the works of the law (Philippians 3:9). *See how this all fits together? *Perfect harmony.

Peter is talking about "works of righteousness" here which are produced by those who already BELIEVE and are already SAVED. Paul did not say "works righteousness" in Romans 10:3,4. He said submit to the righteousness of God which = BELIEVES. What did Paul say about "works of righteousness" in Titus 3:5? He said that it is not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.. So we are not saved by works of righteousness (Titus 3:5), but works of righteousness in connection with salvation are always the FRUIT of, not the means of salvation. Peter is giving a description of a saved believer, not a prerequisite for salvation. Those who work righteousness have already been saved through faith. *You missed the heart of the issue on why such people are accepted by God and why they work righteousness.

Who is it that worketh righteousness? Lost unbelievers or saved believers? Who is it that practices righteousness? Children of the devil or children of God? - 1 John 3:10. You keep missing the point and continue to put the cart before the horse. Peter is not talking about works of righteousness as being the means of salvation here. Paul made it crystal clear that we are not saved by works of righteousness in Titus 3:5. Rather, the question here is whether God's favor is made available to Jews only (partiality - vs. 34) or is now available to Gentiles also (those "in every nation") who fear Him and work righteousness/does what is right (descriptive of Jewish and Gentile Christians).

Peter is not saying that one works righteousness in order to become saved (and neither is Paul - Titus 3:5) but is describing believers/Christians (those who work righteousness) they are accepted by God whether Jew or Gentile. This is descriptive language of a believer/Christian "works righteousness" not a prerequisite to become saved. This continues to be a major stumbling block for you.

Peter did not put working righteousness before "becoming" accepted with God. Peter is simply giving a description of those who are accepted with God "they work righteousness." What works of righteousness did Peter add to "BELIEVES" in Acts 10:43 in connection with receiving forgiveness of sins? "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who BELIEVES in Him receives forgiveness of sins." You need to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion.

It has been shown ad nauseam how EPh 2:9 (and Rom 4:4,5) refers to works of merit and not obedience to God's will.. Paul already made obedient works a necessity in passages as Rom 6:16-18 and would not turn around and contradict himself, and other bible writers, in EPh 2:9. IF Eph 2:9 eliminates ALL works from being saved then that contradicts the very next verse that requires works.

In Rom 10:3 Paul shows those Jews were lost for they 'have not submitted unto the righteousness of God"
You says "Of course Paul did not say that"

So why continue with this when you will not even accept what Paul DID actually say?

When Paul say they would not submit to God's righteousness you say "show me the word "work" or works" in Rom 10:3"
Again more denial of reality of what the word submit means. It was also shown Peter said one WORKS God's righteousness to be accepted Acts 10:35 which you also deny. (and Peter was speaking to those that were lost, he did NOT say "since God has accepted you because of your faith only you can now start working righteousness)


You're denying the plain and obvious so why should I continue with this?

 

[PWE]

Does “not by works” mean there is nothing we can do to be saved? Or does it mean that when we have done all that is commanded we are still “unprofitable servants”? (Luke 17:10)

Because when I look at the case of Simon, after he became a Christian, he was told to repent or perish. (Acts 8:18-24)

To perish is to be eternally lost (John 10:28; Luke 13:3; 2 Peter 3:9-11) Simon’s repentance was a work to be done (Acts 26:20)

Did Simon’s works of repentance save him or was he simply an unprofitable servant doing the commands of God?

Paul says we are created to do good works (Eph 2:10) Continue in good works, then eternal life (Romans 2:6-10)

 

[SeaBass]

Does “not by works” mean there is nothing we can do to be saved? Or does it mean that when we have done all that is commanded we are still “unprofitable servants”? (Luke 17:10)

Because when I look at the case of Simon, after he became a Christian, he was told to repent or perish. (Acts 8:18-24)

To perish is to be eternally lost (John 10:28; Luke 13:3; 2 Peter 3:9-11) Simon’s repentance was a work to be done (Acts 26:20)

Did Simon’s works of repentance save him or was he simply an unprofitable servant doing the commands of God?

Paul says we are created to do good works (Eph 2:10) Continue in good works, then eternal life (Romans 2:6-10)

In EPh 2:9 "not of works" refers to works of merit. All the OT law allowed in order for a person to be in a right standing before God was perfect, flawless law keeping. If the Jew could keep it flawlessly his reward was not of grace but of debt (earned/merited) giving him something to boast about......yet the Jew would inevitably sin.


If "not of works" eliminates ALL works then it would be impossible for one to be a Christian for Christians have been 'before ordained' to do good works. And if one cannot be a Christian he cannot be saved so those good works are necessary for being a Christian making them necessary for being saved. God did not 'before ordain' Christians to walk in 'faith only" but in WORKS. The false theology of faith only creates a major contradiction within just the two verses of Eph 2:9 and 10.

If one is not doing his duty in obeying God's commands he is derelict in his duty.

 

[notuptome]

Curious in how Eph 2:9 supposedly eliminates all works from being saved when Eph 2:10 requires works.

Clear evidence that you force a contradiction in the scriptures to support your unsound doctrine. Ephesians 2:10 does not require works but promises that flowing from salvation is good works. Salvation by grace producing good works which were impossible without grace to save and convert the sinner. The works cannot produce salvation Ephesians 2:9 for it is grace that saves. Salvation produces the works or else they are works of darkness.

By grace we are made Gods workmanship created in Christ unto good works. We were ruined by the fall and unable to do good works before Christ saved us.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[SeaBass]

Clear evidence that you force a contradiction in the scriptures to support your unsound doctrine. Ephesians 2:10 does not require works but promises that flowing from salvation is good works. Salvation by grace producing good works which were impossible without grace to save and convert the sinner. The works cannot produce salvation Ephesians 2:9 for it is grace that saves. Salvation produces the works or else they are works of darkness.

By grace we are made Gods workmanship created in Christ unto good works. We were ruined by the fall and unable to do good works before Christ saved us.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Can one be a Christian and NOT do those good works God preordained Christians to walk in???? NO!!!!!!


So no one can be a Christian and not do good works making those good works a necessary part of the Christians' salvation.

No one can become a Christian WITHOUT works and no one can remain a Christian WITHOUT works.

 

[michael56]

Can one be a Christian and NOT do those good works God preordained Christians to walk in???? NO!!!!!!


So no one can be a Christian and not do good works making those good works a necessary part of the Chritians' salvation.

How many good works must you do to be sure of your salvation? If you don't know, how can you have any assurity of Heaven, you may have failed to do enough?

 

[notuptome]

Can one be a Christian and NOT do those good works God preordained Christians to walk in???? NO!!!!!!


So no one can be a Christian and not do good works making those good works a necessary part of salvation.

One cannot be a Christian and not have the indwelling Holy Spirit. Good works are before the Lord and not before men. You judge as in the flesh. God alone sees the heart. Man cannot measure another mans works for he cannot see the heart.

There are many who pretend to do good works but their heart is far from the Lord. The deceive themselves long before they deceive other men. They can never deceive God and they will be separated from the sheep for they are goats.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[SeaBass]

How many good works must you do to be sure of your salvation? If you don't know, how can you have any assurity of Heaven, you may have failed to do enough?

1) as one has opportunity to do good works Gal 6:10

2) by your question it appears you deny that the Christian MUST do good works. Do you deny Eph 2:10?

 

[michael56]

1) as one has opportunity to do good works Gal 6:10

2) by your question it appears you deny that the Christian MUST do good works. Do you deny Eph 2:10?

Please answer my question, then I will answer yours

 

[SeaBass]

One cannot be a Christian and not have the indwelling Holy Spirit. Good works are before the Lord and not before men. You judge as in the flesh. God alone sees the heart. Man cannot measure another mans works for he cannot see the heart.

There are many who pretend to do good works but their heart is far from the Lord. The deceive themselves long before they deceive other men. They can never deceive God and they will be separated from the sheep for they are goats.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

You avoided the issue that one CANNOT be a Christian yet not do good works.

 

[WheresEnoch]

One cannot be a Christian and not have the indwelling Holy Spirit. Good works are before the Lord and not before men. You judge as in the flesh. God alone sees the heart. Man cannot measure another mans works for he cannot see the heart.

There are many who pretend to do good works but their heart is far from the Lord. The deceive themselves long before they deceive other men. They can never deceive God and they will be separated from the sheep for they are goats.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I think there may be many Christians who have not been born again

 

[SeaBass]

Please answer my question, then I will answer yours

I answered you question, Gal 6:10 as one has opportunity, Paul did not put a specific number on it but do good works as the opportunity presents itself.

So do you deny Eph 2:10?

 

[SeaBass]

I think there may be many Christians who have not been born again

The issue being avoided by the 'faith only' advocates is one cannot be a Christian yet void of doing good works making those good works a necessary part of the Christians' salvation.

 

[michael56]

I answered you question, Gal 6:10 as one has opportunity, Paul did not put a specific number on it but do good works as the opportunity presents itself.

So do you deny Eph 2:10?

I take it then, you accept you have no assurity of Heaven, for you do not know how many good works you must do to earn your salvation.
BTW
What happens if you pass by an opportunity to do a good work, does it put your salvation in jeaopardy?


The only works God will accept are the ones done out of love and gratitude for a free salvation, not ones a person believes will better enable them to enter Heaven/attain to their salvation

 

[Richie_2uk]

Will anyone on these boards that believes they are saved by their works, that is, by obeying God please say so and explain this process? I am not addressing those who think they should obey because they are saved, not in order to be saved. It seems many on these boards must believe such, since the topic is brought up so often. I await you testimony.

Well in Ephesians 2: 8 says: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: So saved by works wont bond well with that verse. We are saved by God's grace, and he provides us with gift we can use to work with with God to bring people who are perishing. God blesses those who follow out his works. But we are not saved by works. 2 men in a field, one man beleive in grace and other believes in works. the man who belives in works, has been working all his life to impress God to get his approval to be saved, the man who believe in Grace works with God to try save people. Who is god going to bless more?

Answer is, God will bless both, but will correct the one who beleives in works, and show him its by grace that will save and not works.

 

[SeaBass]

I take it then, you accept you have no assurity of Heaven, for you do not know how many good works you must do to earn your salvation.
BTW
What happens if you pass by an opportunity to do a good work, does it put your salvation in jeaopardy?

The only works God will accept are the ones done out of love and gratitude for a free salvation, not ones a person believes will better enable them to enter Heaven/attain to their salvation

You avoiding the issue by demanding one do a specific number of good works when the bible does not give a specific number but do good as one has opportunity. If I miss an opportunity I take advantage of the next one. God is not looking for a specific number of good works or sinless perfection as you are looking for.

God BEFORE ORDAINED Christians walk in good work so God wants Christian to earn their salvation?

You evidently do deny EPh 2:10 by looking for loopholes around it.