God of the Paradox

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AngelFrog

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2015
648
58
28
#1
This video is making the rounds on many Christian forums of late as it proposes a quandary as to the Omni-powers of God and the part humans play in the faith paradigm.

[video=youtube;xJ7cqE6Om9M]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJ7cqE6Om9M[/video]

Admittedly the audio is a bit much to take. That is the edited version I sought out as the longer near 11 minute one is the one making the rounds.

How do we respond to those points? The paradigm an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, God set forth being he has foreknowledge, has predestined the world and our lives before the foundation of the world, and all per scripture. How Satan cannot act without God's permission, and how Jesus, knowing his destiny was to die for the worlds sins, could not have then made what would be defined as a sacrifice of himself.

All gleaned from the video but if you can make it through see what you think.

I'll admit this atheist production, yes, I know, "well they're atheists. There's your answer right there!" , but it isn't that simple. This rationalizes the Biblical points to arrive at what for me is a real curiosity about faith and reason.

Thank you for your patience if you do watch this. And sincere heart felt educated replies are requested. This is not meant to hurt anyone's feelings. It is posted to help me overcome my own confusion being a new seeker of the Way.

Thank you for reading.
 
Dec 26, 2014
3,757
19
0
#2
"This rationalizes the Biblical points to arrive at what for me is a real curiosity about faith and reason.
...It is posted to help me overcome my own confusion being a new seeker of the Way. "



from what can be seen of the threads here, you will simply be more confused if you trust any man.

Jesus will answer you though as / if you seek the Father in heaven for His Promise > Peace, Joy, and Righteousness along with Eternal Life......

in any and every case you will find the answer absolutely confirmed in HIS WORD and HIS SPIRIT - with
very true and real PEACE in your heart, JOY that the world cannot touch nor take, and
RIGHTEOUSNESS that no man can achieve; also Jesus has become our (ekklesia immersed in HIS NAME) knowledge, our wisdom, our endurance, our all in all; yes, already done by the Father as He Pleases.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,876
13,204
113
#3
the pretense, like with most atheist reasoning, is that man is fit to judge God.

anyone who thinks that does not properly understand even the concept of "God"
 
Sep 14, 2014
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#4
the pretense, like with most atheist reasoning, is that man is fit to judge God.

anyone who thinks that does not properly understand even the concept of "God"
No one is judging god in this video. Just some straight up thoughts about paradoxes.

This video covers answers like yours too.
 
W

WalkByTheSpirit

Guest
#5
This video portrays God as a being which is playing games with people.
This view is definitely going to cause you to have resentment towards God and feel distant from Him, it is quite common.
The answer I believe (at least for myself) is to understand what God is actually doing.

Our Father is creating and raising children who He loves and values beyond all things which could easily be created.
Beings like Himself who understand the difference between good and evil and yet chose to do what is good even when it is difficult. Children who repay evil with good and love others more than themselves by their actions regardless of their circumstances. Who understand that what is right is right and act accordingly, beings who are faithful loving and true (as He Himself is) with even a small amount of power, resources and responsibility. Those who are faithful with a little here in this life, will be given great responsibility in His Kingdom for all eternity.

Yes, God knew the cost that would be required to achieve this, yet He determined that it would be worth it.
He did not create all of these things in vain, nor allow the existence of evil for no reason.
For His good purposes to be accomplished, man needed to have a will of their own.
It is unfortunate what we have chosen to do with it.
That is why we do not love the world or the things in it, but instead choose to love God and the ways of God which are perfect and good.

Cost of Discipleship
Now great crowds accompanied him, and he turned and said to them, 26 “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. 27 Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple. 28 For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it? 29 Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, 30 saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish.’ 31 Or what king, going out to encounter another king in war, will not sit down first and deliberate whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? 32 And if not, while the other is yet a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks for terms of peace. 33 So therefore, any one of you who does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple.




He could have programmed us all to only act according to a very limited programming (like robots, which is what He did at first), but that only creates the illusion of good, love, obedience etc... Just look at His creation, it's complexity and awe inspiring beauty and scope and you will realize that God is far greater than to settle on the illusion of love and the illusion of goodness.



Look at God's definition of love:

1 Corinthians 13
If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant 5 or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; 6 it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. 7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. 11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

13 So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.



He Himself embodies this love, and He is raising His children to be the same as Him.
By loving God and people (more than ourselves and our sinful nature) His commandments are wonderful and easy.
His commandments are truly good things. Love Him and love people as you love yourself. Self-sacrifice, as He came and showed us what it truly means to love (Christ=God. living a sinless life, teaching the way of love, and then laying down His life so that we may all live) Do not hate, have adulterous thoughts, steal, lie, disrespect etc. Be patient, kind, bear each others burdens, do not be easily irritable, resentful etc. Keep yourself pure as He is pure.

He walks with us if we walk with Him. Through the Holy Spirit, we become born again. A new creation with new desires, a new being who no longer desires to walk in the darkness of the world, a slave to sinful and destructive ways and thinking. But instead possessing a renewed mind. A being who no longer walks by the flesh, trusting only in what can be seen by the eyes. But walking by the Spirit, who trusts in a reality that is beyond our physical understanding.



Romans 8

8 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.[a] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin,[c] he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus[d] from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

Heirs with Christ
12 So then, brothers,[e] we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons[f] of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

Future Glory
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.

26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because[g] the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,[h] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.



Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known[c] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee[d] of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it,[e] to the praise of his glory.

1 John 3
Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

Phillipians 4
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. 9 What you have learned and received and heard and seen in me—practice these things, and the God of peace will be with you.
 
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WalkByTheSpirit

Guest
#6
God gives us all much warning and many chances to turn from our wicked ways and reprobate mind. He does not desire any to perish, yet the time will soon come for the sinfulness of man to be put to an end once and for all. It was never His intention to allow His creation to exist in a fallen and perverse state for all eternity.

When the fullness of His children is reached, then the life and purposes He has planned for us truly begins.

Until then, we pick up our crosses, deny ourselves and follow after Him in the way He showed us.
Helping in the raising of His children out of love and obedience
 
W

WalkByTheSpirit

Guest
#7
Hardship refines our faith and perfects the love of God within us

Daniel 12

He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end. 10 Many shall purify themselves and make themselves white and be refined, but the wicked shall act wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand, but those who are wise shall understand.

Revelation 3
For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. 18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see. 19 Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. 21 The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’”




James 1
Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, 3 for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. 4 And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him. 6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind. 7 For that person must not suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; 8 he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.

9 Let the lowly brother boast in his exaltation, 10 and the rich in his humiliation, because like a flower of the grass[c] he will pass away. 11 For the sun rises with its scorching heat and withers the grass; its flower falls, and its beauty perishes. So also will the rich man fade away in the midst of his pursuits.

12 Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him. 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. 14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.

16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brothers. 17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change.[d] 18 Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Hearing and Doing the Word
19 Know this, my beloved brothers: let every person be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger; 20 for the anger of man does not produce the righteousness of God. 21 Therefore put away all filthiness and rampant wickedness and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.

22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. 23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks intently at his natural face in a mirror. 24 For he looks at himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like. 25 But the one who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing.

26 If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person's religion is worthless. 27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.
 

DiscipleDave

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2012
3,095
69
48
#8
This video is making the rounds on many Christian forums of late as it proposes a quandary as to the Omni-powers of God and the part humans play in the faith paradigm.

[video=youtube;xJ7cqE6Om9M]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJ7cqE6Om9M[/video]

Admittedly the audio is a bit much to take. That is the edited version I sought out as the longer near 11 minute one is the one making the rounds.

How do we respond to those points? The paradigm an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, God set forth being he has foreknowledge, has predestined the world and our lives before the foundation of the world, and all per scripture. How Satan cannot act without God's permission, and how Jesus, knowing his destiny was to die for the worlds sins, could not have then made what would be defined as a sacrifice of himself.

All gleaned from the video but if you can make it through see what you think.

I'll admit this atheist production, yes, I know, "well they're atheists. There's your answer right there!" , but it isn't that simple. This rationalizes the Biblical points to arrive at what for me is a real curiosity about faith and reason.

Thank you for your patience if you do watch this. And sincere heart felt educated replies are requested. This is not meant to hurt anyone's feelings. It is posted to help me overcome my own confusion being a new seeker of the Way.

Thank you for reading.
The Truth can be found in this article The Meaning of Life. Answers the questions presented.

^i^ Responding to OP
 
Sep 14, 2014
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#9
Yeah there's no better way to discuss things than pasting verse after verse or linking to websites.

Where is the art of conversation? Lol
 
Dec 26, 2014
3,757
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#10
ala carta > person to person (or when in truth spirit to spirit) is the only real and true way to convey the power of yahweh and truth. online just doesn't effectively work even for solid true long-term established ekklesia.....

plus nothing works, not even Yahweh (unless He wants), for the worldly or for the carnal. that goes unsaid, or said, as it is written.
 
W

WalkByTheSpirit

Guest
#11
Yeah there's no better way to discuss things than pasting verse after verse or linking to websites.

Where is the art of conversation? Lol
Hard to have a conversation with myself lol. The only way people learn anything is if they seek answers for themselves.
Plus, many people are turned off by Bible verses. I have experienced this many times in the past by nonChristians who ask questions. Even going so far as to completely reject and avoid whatever I share with them if it conains God's Word.They don't seem to realize that the only truth in the world is the Word of God.

If you are not at that realization, then spend some time testing the Word of God to determine if it is legit.
Nobody will learn anything worthwhile or trustworthy until they establish the Bible's credibility for themselves
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
183
63
#12
This video is making the rounds on many Christian forums of late as it proposes a quandary as to the Omni-powers of God and the part humans play in the faith paradigm.

[video=youtube;xJ7cqE6Om9M]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJ7cqE6Om9M[/video]

Admittedly the audio is a bit much to take. That is the edited version I sought out as the longer near 11 minute one is the one making the rounds.

How do we respond to those points? The paradigm an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, God set forth being he has foreknowledge, has predestined the world and our lives before the foundation of the world, and all per scripture. How Satan cannot act without God's permission, and how Jesus, knowing his destiny was to die for the worlds sins, could not have then made what would be defined as a sacrifice of himself.

All gleaned from the video but if you can make it through see what you think.

I'll admit this atheist production, yes, I know, "well they're atheists. There's your answer right there!" , but it isn't that simple. This rationalizes the Biblical points to arrive at what for me is a real curiosity about faith and reason.

Thank you for your patience if you do watch this. And sincere heart felt educated replies are requested. This is not meant to hurt anyone's feelings. It is posted to help me overcome my own confusion being a new seeker of the Way.

Thank you for reading.
God is self existent, all powerful omnipresent, omniscient, invisible, and benevolent!

He doesn't have to apply for His powers they are His.

How can an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God be benevolent and allow evil to exist?

God created mankind because He wanted a creature who is able to receive and return His love.

The nature of love is such that it cannot be programmed or imposed.

The price God paid for a creature who was able to love Him was that He got a creature who was able NOT to love Him

The fact that I am able to kick out your living room picture window does not obligate me to exercise that power.

Likewise God's ability to prevent evil does not obligate Him to exercise that power; since doing so would preempt love.


When a mother tells her child not to touch a hot stove, she has no desire to see her child burned.

When the child does touch the hot stove the resultant burn is NOT punishment from the mother.
The burn is inherent in the nature of the hot stove

Likewise, when God warned Adam (and Eve) about the consequence of disobedience; He did not desire them to experience that consequence. The consequence is inherent in the nature of disobedience

The fact that God had foreknowledge of their disobedience does NOT subsume causality. [God didn't make them do it]

Without obligation to do so, God graciously took the consequence of disobedience upon Himself

Once again mankind has the option to receive and return God's love and accept God's provision for each person's individual disobedience or reject God's love and His provision for their sin.

The consequence of rejecting God's provision for one's disobedience is that he/she needs to take the consequence him/herself.
 
Sep 14, 2014
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#13
God is self existent, all powerful omnipresent, omniscient, invisible, and benevolent!

He doesn't have to apply for His powers they are His.

How can an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God be benevolent and allow evil to exist?

God created mankind because He wanted a creature who is able to receive and return His love.

The nature of love is such that it cannot be programmed or imposed.

The price God paid for a creature who was able to love Him was that He got a creature who was able NOT to love Him

The fact that I am able to kick out your living room picture window does not obligate me to exercise that power.

Likewise God's ability to prevent evil does not obligate Him to exercise that power; since doing so would preempt love.


When a mother tells her child not to touch a hot stove, she has no desire to see her child burned.

When the child does touch the hot stove the resultant burn is NOT punishment from the mother.
The burn is inherent in the nature of the hot stove

Likewise, when God warned Adam (and Eve) about the consequence of disobedience; He did not desire them to experience that consequence. The consequence is inherent in the nature of disobedience

The fact that God had foreknowledge of their disobedience does NOT subsume causality. [God didn't make them do it]

Without obligation to do so, God graciously took the consequence of disobedience upon Himself

Once again mankind has the option to receive and return God's love and accept God's provision for each person's individual disobedience or reject God's love and His provision for their sin.

The consequence of rejecting God's provision for one's disobedience is that he/she needs to take the consequence him/herself.
Bit if the mother knew in advance, with absolute certainty that the child would touch the stove... Is she a good mother by turning it on not doing anything to prevent it?
 

breno785au

Senior Member
Jul 23, 2013
6,002
766
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Australia
#14
Hard to have a conversation with myself lol. The only way people learn anything is if they seek answers for themselves.
Plus, many people are turned off by Bible verses. I have experienced this many times in the past by nonChristians who ask questions. Even going so far as to completely reject and avoid whatever I share with them if it conains God's Word.They don't seem to realize that the only truth in the world is the Word of God.

If you are not at that realization, then spend some time testing the Word of God to determine if it is legit.
Nobody will learn anything worthwhile or trustworthy until they establish the Bible's credibility for themselves
lol its funny, if someone asks, "How does God allow evil to exist?" And I say, "Well, in Genesis is says that God gave man dominion over the earth and this is what we have done with that dominion." And they reject my answer because the answer points to a verse within the confines of a book that they despise and/or it has the word 'bible' on it. I don't really know what else to do? :p
 
Sep 14, 2014
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#15
Well yeah.. Cos its like some saying "Harry Potter isn't a wizard", and then someone replies with "Yes he is, it says so in Chapter 1 of the Philosophers Stone!"

The bible isn't evidence for a claim, the bible IS the claim.
 

breno785au

Senior Member
Jul 23, 2013
6,002
766
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#16
But he is a wizard because the book says so...

But how is he a wizard?

Because his creator made him a wizard and the book says so.
 
Sep 14, 2014
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#17
But he is a wizard because the book says so...

But how is he a wizard?

Because his creator made him a wizard and the book says so.
Lol exctly, which is why circular reasoning has no place in discussion.

The differnce with harry potter though, is the creator is not part of the story
 

breno785au

Senior Member
Jul 23, 2013
6,002
766
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Australia
#18
Lol exctly, which is why circular reasoning has no place in discussion.

The differnce with harry potter though, is the creator is not part of the story
lol that's not circular reasoning, we know harry potter is a wizard because the book says he is a wizard.

Yeah, Rowling is not part of the story but she has put her name to it, it's her IP, unless of course she sells the IP, until then it's hers and she sets the terms.
 
Sep 14, 2014
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#19
lol that's not circular reasoning, we know harry potter is a wizard because the book says he is a wizard.

Yeah, Rowling is not part of the story but she has put her name to it, it's her IP, unless of course she sells the IP, until then it's hers and she sets the terms.
If a book makes a claim, then you defend that claim by saying the book says so, then its not a valid argument.

The book itself hasn't even been confirmed as being true. And if you want to refer to a book to validate something, then the book has to have been proven to be true, otherwise the argument fails immediately.
 
Sep 14, 2014
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#20
Not in the eyes of a believer of course. But someone outside of your faith needs something a little more substantial than "The Bible Says"

If I present an argument to you and said "The Qu'ran says..." That statement would mean nothing to you, would you agree?