Catholic Heresy (for the record)

AgeofKnowledge · Mar 13, 2015

Take a college class or read a scholarly book on church history Jackson123 and pull yourself up from the fog of ignorance. 'Church History in Plain Language' by Dr. Bruce Shelley (senior professor of church history and historical theology at Denver Seminary) would be one place to begin:

Church History in Plain Language: Fourth Edition: Dr. Bruce L. Shelley: 9781401676315: Amazon.com: Books

Jackson123 · Mar 13, 2015

AgeofKnowledge said:

You don't need take a class for this reason brother. It is logically visible.

Catholic tradition is not match with Bible tradition. Example Mary is queen of heaven. it is not in the bible at all.

Pray and bow in front of statue is not in the bible at all.

Where is this come from.

Constantine responsible to make catholic as official roman religion.

He is a Roman pagan high priest.

Than we can conclude the tradition, Mary is queen of heaven etc is from roman religion. Though I agree the infiltration not happen at once but gradually.

AgeofKnowledge · Mar 13, 2015

Some historians have considered Constantine's "conversion" a purely political maneuver as plenty of unconverted pagans and paganism remained in the Roman Empire. And, yes he retained his title Pontifex Maximus as head of the state religious cult until his baptism before his death but a purely political conversion is hard to maintain in the light of his public and private actions.

From the year 312, he favored Christianity openly. His public support for Christianity was matched by changes in Constantine's private life. Making no secret of his Christian convictions, he had his sons and daughters brought up as Christians and led a Christian family life. Etc...

Bishop Eusebius of Nicomedia baptized him shortly before he died in 337. For his baptism, Constantine refused to ever wear again the imperial purple and thus left life dressed in his white baptismal robes.

But you're biggest error here is in falsely asserting that Constantine syncreted paganism with Christian doctrine. He didn't. But what he did do was make purity of Christian doctrine a central concern of the empire, for example, convening the Bishops whom produced the Nicene Creed which refuted the heresy and Gnosticism that had sprung up.

You're making a lot of false assertions here in your post. For example, leading Constantine scholar Dr. Charles Odahl (Boise State University, Idaho) clearly shows that after 312 AD, Constantine never worships the Sun or any other pagan god again. Read about it at Church History 101: Emperor Constantine Sol Invictus | Christianity and Constantine, Sun worship, sunday worship, was Constantine a Christian?, influence on Christianity, icon on his coinage, second century, Christians Church, apocalypse

And the reason why it took longer than you would have liked for Christianity to become the official religion of the Roman Empire has everything to do with a new emperor consolidating his power in order to confront and suppress the pagan majority of the Roman Empire in order to see Christianity made the official religion of the Roman Empire. Moving too fast could have led to a pagan revolt. In fact, the majority of the population remained non-Christian at least into the fifth century. History is clear that Constantine was actively busy building up Christianity the entire time.

And while the title Pontifex Maximus was used in inscriptions referring to the Popes, it has never been included in the official list of papal titles published in the Annuario Pontificio. Assuming a title for the purpose of ensuring continuity of the Christian church in the face of a hostile majority pagan population doesn't equate to syncretism of pagan doctrine into Christian epistemology. Under Constantine, in fact, the exact opposite occurred.

Jackson123 said:

AgeofKnowledge · Mar 13, 2015

I'm not defending Roman Catholicism. I'm correcting your many errors with respect to it. I agree Roman Catholic doctrine materially deviates from a correct scriptural exegesis. Of course it does.

But you do need to educate yourself because you're displaying great historical ignorance about a worldview you adhere to. We've already covered these examples. You can retain information I'm assuming so why simply repeat them as if we never had the discussion.

And how can you accuse in this post Constantine of being responsible for making Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire and then in a previous post berate him for not doing so. You're not making any sense.

Jackson123 said:

MikeHenderson · Mar 13, 2015

I find it interesting the main focus in the N.T. is Jesus Christ and what He does for us. But yet the Catholics teach its Jesus Christ and Mary that is our main focus. Where in the Scriptures does it show that Mary was involved with Jesus Christ and the Disciples in spreading the Gospel of Salvation?

After the wedding feast Mary disappears from the scene. She is nowhere to be found. So why are you Catholics Worshiping Mary? Jesus Christ had nothing to do with her. Its a shame on the Catholics for walking away from what the Holy Spirit says to Worship and follow Mary. And yes you Catholics do Worship Mary. Your mouth may say you do not Worship Mary but your Theology and actions prove you do Worship her.

ThomistColin · Mar 13, 2015

150 pages...This is a milestone.

Jackson123 · Mar 13, 2015

AgeofKnowledge said:

Some historians have considered Constantine's "conversion" a purely political maneuver as plenty of unconverted pagans and paganism remained in the Roman Empire. And, yes he retained his title Pontifex Maximus as head of the state religious cult until his baptism before his death but a purely political conversion is hard to maintain in the light of his public and private actions.

From the year 312, he favored Christianity openly. His public support for Christianity was matched by changes in Constantine's private life. Making no secret of his Christian convictions, he had his sons and daughters brought up as Christians and led a Christian family life. Etc...

Bishop Eusebius of Nicomedia baptized him shortly before he died in 337. For his baptism, Constantine refused to ever wear again the imperial purple and thus left life dressed in his white baptismal robes.

But you're biggest error here is in falsely asserting that Constantine syncreted paganism with Christian doctrine. He didn't. But what he did do was make purity of Christian doctrine a central concern of the empire, for example, convening the Bishops whom produced the Nicene Creed which refuted the heresy and Gnosticism that had sprung up.

You're making a lot of false assertions here in your post. For example, leading Constantine scholar Dr. Charles Odahl (Boise State University, Idaho) clearly shows that after 312 AD, Constantine never worships the Sun or any other pagan god again. Read about it at Church History 101: Emperor Constantine Sol Invictus | Christianity and Constantine, Sun worship, sunday worship, was Constantine a Christian?, influence on Christianity, icon on his coinage, second century, Christians Church, apocalypse

And the reason why it took longer than you would have liked for Christianity to become the official religion of the Roman Empire has everything to do with a new emperor consolidating his power in order to confront and suppress the pagan majority of the Roman Empire in order to see Christianity made the official religion of the Roman Empire. Moving too fast could have led to a pagan revolt. In fact, the majority of the population remained non-Christian at least into the fifth century. History is clear that Constantine was actively busy building up Christianity the entire time.

And while the title Pontifex Maximus was used in inscriptions referring to the Popes, it has never been included in the official list of papal titles published in the Annuario Pontificio. Assuming a title for the purpose of ensuring continuity of the Christian church in the face of a hostile majority pagan population doesn't equate to syncretism of pagan doctrine into Christian epistemology. Under Constantine, in fact, the exact opposite occurred.

Let look at the fact brother.

You said Constantine working hard to purify Christianity.

The fact is:

1. He is not baptized till the end of his life. Why?

2. He is still high priest of pagan till the end of his life. Some historian said he died when the baptism of water dripping on his head

3. To this day Catholic pray and bow in front of statue. Where this tradition come from?

4. To this day Catholic believe Mary is queen of heaven, exactly like what roman religion believe that there is queen of heaven.

AgeofKnowledge · Mar 13, 2015

I already answered your questions Jackson123 and addressed every issue you continue to repeatedly post. Perhaps counseling can be of benefit in helping you come to a point where you're ready to learn about history rather than simply repeat the same false assertions with respect to it.

AgeofKnowledge · Mar 13, 2015

Oh trust me, there's a few screeders here that could easily double that. On another note, I can't believe you're only twenty-eight ThomistColin. You always present yourself as mature beyond those years as is your avatar. I think I first saw that animated rendition of the Hobbit in 1979.

ThomistColin said:

AgeofKnowledge · Mar 13, 2015

For accurate information on Constantine and the transition of the pagan state of Roman antiquity into the Christian empire medieval Byzantium, read this book by Dr. Charles Odahl who is a Protestant and senior professor of Ancient and Medieval History (and Classical and Patristic Latin) at the conservative Boise State University in Idaho:

Amazon.com: Constantine and the Christian Empire (Roman Imperial Biographies) (9780415645140): Charles Odahl: Books

ThomistColin · Mar 13, 2015

AgeofKnowledge said:

I was raised by parents born in the 40s, a brother born the year Rankin-Bass made that movie about Bilbo, and I was very much a loner lost in a world of books. My friends were named Bilbo, Lucy, Edmund, Lewis, Tolkien, Shakespeare, etc. I hungered for knowledge of fantastical worlds and the world around me. It led me to Arthur and Maerlyn (original spelling btw) then to Beowulf, and eventually to Aquinas, Fulcher, Urban II, and more. My life has been filled with friends both real and ink based. But among them all was God, the truest friend a kid who was afraid of the world, and afraid he couldn't make it in that world, could have.

I could tell God all my secrets and trust Him with my entire life. Even when I fell away and walked the paths of debauchery, He was there and I would still talk to Him.

I don't know if that makes me mature, but it most definitely has led me to where I am today.

AgeofKnowledge · Mar 13, 2015

It started in the second century amongst some Christians, in opposition to what Christ and the apostles taught, and drifted over centuries into Catholic theology with Ambrose of Milan being the first Bishop to begin elevating Mary.

Presently, it's reached a point of absurdity in the RCC with modern popes. For example, Pope Paul VI's 'Credo of the People of God' states, "The Mother of the Church, carries on in heaven her maternal role with regard to the members of Christ, cooperating in the birth and development of divine life in the souls of the redeemed."

What fabricated nonsense. But then many Catholic doctrines and practices are unbiblical (e.g. purgatory, praying for the dead, indulgences, venerating images, praying to Mary, venerating Mary, the bodily assumption of Mary, worshipping the consecrated host, and the infallibility of the Pope, etc...).

The Catholic Encyclopedia details a view of Mary that the same Catholic Encyclopedia admits is not Biblical. Look that up, as it's true. Their view of her life and her role originate in Catholic tradition -- that is, the writings of the popes and theologians, rather than in the Bible.

First Timothy 2:5 declares, "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." There is no one else that can mediate with God for us. If Jesus is the ONLY mediator, that indicates Mary and the saints cannot be mediators. They cannot mediate our prayer requests to God or do for us what only God can do. Further, the Bible tells us that Jesus Christ Himself is interceding for us before the Father.

The Catholic will simply say that asking Mary and the saints to pray for them is no different than asking someone here on earth to pray for us. But the Bible nowhere mentions anyone asking for someone in heaven to pray for them and other than Jesus's intercession as divine mediator to omnipresent, omniscient God the father; the Bible nowhere describes anyone in heaven as ever praying for anyone on earth.

But the Bible does have a lot of very negative things to say about praying to or speaking with the dead (e.g. occult sorcery). In fact, praying to the dead is strictly forbidden in the Bible with verses like Deuteronomy 18:11 stating that anyone who “consults with the dead” is “detestable to the Lord.”

The truth is that the Roman Catholic Church has floated off its rocker with respect to Mary. In my observations, many Catholics offer more prayers to Mary and pay her more attention and honor than to Crist and God combined. There are thousands of Catholic shrines to Mary around the world (and hundreds of shrines to other "saints"), but scarcely more than a handful of minor shrines to Christ himself.

Despite the RCC asserting Mary is supposedly only given hyperdulia, the other saints dulia, while Christ is given latria; what Catholics are doing in practice and what their theologians are asserting contradict this. For example, read Cardinal and Saint Alphonsus de Liguori's 'The Glories of Mary' to see how far past the biblical record Catholics have taken Mary veneration/worship in their displacement of Jesus Christ with Mary. Pay attention to quotes like this, "No one can enter Heaven unless by Mary, as though through a door." <-- That's blatant heresy.

Furthermore, many Catholics I talk to insist Mary was an eternal virgin who never had any other children than Jesus Christ despite the biblical and historical record that after Christ she did have sexual relations with her earthly husband and bear natural children.

Well... it just goes on and on and on... which is why I'm not a Catholic.

Fortunately, I do know some who are saved

. There are many reasons why Catholics who do get saved stay in the Catholic Church. But that's really another discussion altogether.

MikeHenderson said:

AgeofKnowledge · Mar 13, 2015

Well, I like you and do see that you communicate at a level beyond your years. I feel the same way about the young Catholic apologist SantoSubito.

ThomistColin said:

Jackson123 · Mar 13, 2015

AgeofKnowledge said:

Let me make sure,
Do You want to say that Catholic is not syncretezed ? or Syncretized but not with Roman pagan religion?

ThomistColin · Mar 13, 2015

I do agree that many Catholics go overboard and into heresy with their veneration of Mary, to the point that it becomes worship. However, I do not believe that defines Catholicism, even if its the majority view.

In the first couple centuries after Christianity became the state religion of Rome, a heresy rose. The heresy was Arianism, a denial of Trinity and of Jesus as God Himself. There was a time during those centuries when the majority of the Christian faith from bishops to priests from emperor to layman were Arian heretics. When I say the majority, some scholars put the numbers as almost 70-80% of those claiming to be Christian. Amazingly, the Catholic Church, as it existed then, had council after council denying the heresy. After centuries of persecution of the those Christians who upheld the Nicene Creed (denied by Arius the founder of the heresy), rose up to become the majority of Christians in the world and overthrew the Arian heretics.

I see the same happening today. Pope after Pope, Bishop after Bishop offering Mary more than she is due. But the Councils, the Theologians, and the Roman Curia (the administrative and theological body of Catholic heirarchy) have not endorsed this trend. Many have spoken out against it, including Pope John Paul II when he was petitioned to announce Mary as Mother of Mankind. He said that to do so would make Mary a god, to make Mary equal to God. He would not be the man to declare an "apostasy" (his words) to the Christian world.
This comes from the Pope who in my time has supported the veneration of Mary at times too far, but he knew the limits, because the Holy Spirit kept him as He keeps all of us from grave apostasy.

Someday, the Christians in the Catholic Church, who do venerate Mary as Mother of the Church and as a Saint, will rise and push off those who worship Mary. Just as we did to the Arians.

I do venerate Mary, as mother and saint and sister in Christ. But she is not my God nor my King. My allegiance is to Christ. Let any who worships Mary confess it, repent, and be forgiven. Because if they do not, they are in danger of the fires of Gehenna.

That's my position.

Jackson123 · Mar 13, 2015

AgeofKnowledge said:

Some historians have considered Constantine's "conversion" a purely political maneuver as plenty of unconverted pagans and paganism remained in the Roman Empire. And, yes he retained his title Pontifex Maximus as head of the state religious cult until his baptism before his death but a purely political conversion is hard to maintain in the light of his public and private actions.

From the year 312, he favored Christianity openly. His public support for Christianity was matched by changes in Constantine's private life. Making no secret of his Christian convictions, he had his sons and daughters brought up as Christians and led a Christian family life. Etc...

Bishop Eusebius of Nicomedia baptized him shortly before he died in 337. For his baptism, Constantine refused to ever wear again the imperial purple and thus left life dressed in his white baptismal robes.

But you're biggest error here is in falsely asserting that Constantine syncreted paganism with Christian doctrine. He didn't. But what he did do was make purity of Christian doctrine a central concern of the empire, for example, convening the Bishops whom produced the Nicene Creed which refuted the heresy and Gnosticism that had sprung up.

You're making a lot of false assertions here in your post. For example, leading Constantine scholar Dr. Charles Odahl (Boise State University, Idaho) clearly shows that after 312 AD, Constantine never worships the Sun or any other pagan god again. Read about it at Church History 101: Emperor Constantine Sol Invictus | Christianity and Constantine, Sun worship, sunday worship, was Constantine a Christian?, influence on Christianity, icon on his coinage, second century, Christians Church, apocalypse

And the reason why it took longer than you would have liked for Christianity to become the official religion of the Roman Empire has everything to do with a new emperor consolidating his power in order to confront and suppress the pagan majority of the Roman Empire in order to see Christianity made the official religion of the Roman Empire. Moving too fast could have led to a pagan revolt. In fact, the majority of the population remained non-Christian at least into the fifth century. History is clear that Constantine was actively busy building up Christianity the entire time.

And while the title Pontifex Maximus was used in inscriptions referring to the Popes, it has never been included in the official list of papal titles published in the Annuario Pontificio. Assuming a title for the purpose of ensuring continuity of the Christian church in the face of a hostile majority pagan population doesn't equate to syncretism of pagan doctrine into Christian epistemology. Under Constantine, in fact, the exact opposite occurred.

On the red:

You tray to say it take time to make pure christian, Am I correct?

How long it take?

To this day, it has been 1700 years and Catholic still pray and bow in front of statue.
Do you believe Catholic is not syncretism any more?

Jackson123 · Mar 13, 2015

ThomistColin said:

I do agree that many Catholics go overboard and into heresy with their veneration of Mary, to the point that it becomes worship. However, I do not believe that defines Catholicism, even if its the majority view.

In the first couple centuries after Christianity became the state religion of Rome, a heresy rose. The heresy was Arianism, a denial of Trinity and of Jesus as God Himself. There was a time during those centuries when the majority of the Christian faith from bishops to priests from emperor to layman were Arian heretics. When I say the majority, some scholars put the numbers as almost 70-80% of those claiming to be Christian. Amazingly, the Catholic Church, as it existed then, had council after council denying the heresy. After centuries of persecution of the those Christians who upheld the Nicene Creed (denied by Arius the founder of the heresy), rose up to become the majority of Christians in the world and overthrew the Arian heretics.

I see the same happening today. Pope after Pope, Bishop after Bishop offering Mary more than she is due. But the Councils, the Theologians, and the Roman Curia (the administrative and theological body of Catholic heirarchy) have not endorsed this trend. Many have spoken out against it, including Pope John Paul II when he was petitioned to announce Mary as Mother of Mankind. He said that to do so would make Mary a god, to make Mary equal to God. He would not be the man to declare an "apostasy" (his words) to the Christian world.
This comes from the Pope who in my time has supported the veneration of Mary at times too far, but he knew the limits, because the Holy Spirit kept him as He keeps all of us from grave apostasy.

Someday, the Christians in the Catholic Church, who do venerate Mary as Mother of the Church and as a Saint, will rise and push off those who worship Mary. Just as we did to the Arians.

I do venerate Mary, as mother and saint and sister in Christ. But she is not my God nor my King. My allegiance is to Christ. Let any who worships Mary confess it, repent, and be forgiven. Because if they do not, they are in danger of the fires of Gehenna.

That's my position.

Brother Thomist, I am glad you realize this problem.

You admit that Pope warship Mary.

Pope is infallible. If you don't believe the infallibility of Pope then your are not catholic.

AgeofKnowledge · Mar 13, 2015

Wikipedia ascribes to the Bauer-Ehrman hypthesis with respect to early Christianity which has been soundly refuted and so are making historically false assertions such as most early Christians ascribed to heresy. It's not true.

Orthodox Christianity was organized early (in the AD 40s and 50s) with a core belief system that an ecclesiastical organization subsequently built on. The church's foundational organizing principles and orthodox epistemology were already in place in the first century.

Prior to Constantine's Edict of Milan (AD 313) that mandated religious toleration throughout the Roman Empire, adherents of orthodoxy had no official means or power to relegate heretics to a marginal role yet with respect to the Arian controversy of 318 AD there is no significant mention of any Gnostic sect during this controversy for prior to Constantine's mandate, the orthodox were able decisively to refute these heretical movements. The heretics were nowhere near as numerous and pervasive as Bauer-Ehrman, Wikipedia, liberal postmodern revisionist authors, etc... contend.

Without an official governing body in place, the only way that the orthodox could have "won" prior to Constantine was through the force of sheer numbers which was, in fact, the case. And it's a good thing too because if heretics actually had been the majority, orthodoxy would have been overturned. But they weren't and it wasn't. It's not so amazing when you understand history as it was rather than as modern and post modern liberal revisionists misrepresent it to be.

Read 'The Heresy of Orthodoxy' by Dr. Andreas J. Köstenberger and Dr. Michael J. Kruger as a suggested starting point:

ThomistColin said:

MikeHenderson · Mar 13, 2015

Why do Catholics make Mary equal to God?

Then say that Mary can hear our prayers. In order to hear and answer the prayers of millions of Catholics Mary needs to have the powers of Omniscience and Omnipresence.

God is Omniscience.
God is Omnipresence.

The very fact that the Catholics teach Mary can hear our prayers proves the Catholics have made Mary equal to God. You Catholics can deny it all you want but your prayers to Mary proves you believe she has the same powers as God which make her equal to God.

AgeofKnowledge · Mar 13, 2015

Watch this interview: Q&A with Andreas Kostenberger : AGTV

Catholic Heresy (for the record)

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