SAVED BY WORKS

[tribesman]

In Romans 10 the Jews were not lost eternally, but were separated from their fellowship with God by trying to establish their own righteousness. They were already saved eternally by the fact that Paul said that they have a "zeal" of God. If they were carnal and void of the Holy Spirit they could not have had a zeal of God because the carnal man can not discern spiritual things nor have a zeal of God.

So Paul's prayer for these unbelieving jews was that they be saved only timely? Faith is then not a means for eternal salvation nor a necessary fruit of regeneration? I am not convinced of your position.

 

[1joseph]

so now you ask the HS to come into your heart...where is that found in scripture????? that is doctrine of man...scripture teaches ...repent and be baptised for the remission of sins and you shall receive the gift of the HS.....it does not teach ...ask the HS to come into our heart....How were your sins remitted if you did not do it as shown in scripture???

For me, the way I obeyed was when the Holy Spirit convicted me of my sins many years ago; I repented of them;told the Holy Spirit I believed Jesus was my savior, and asked Him to come into my heart. And He did!

I was saved at this point.

I was baptized publicly a few days later.

As far as God, His Spirit and the human heart:

Romans 5:5
And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.

Galatians 4:6
Because you are his sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba, Father.”

2 Thessalonians 3:5
May the Lord direct your hearts into God’s love and Christ's perseverance.

 

[dcontroversal]

You can't betray someone unless you were actually faithful to them at some point.

Oh, and no. God doesn't want us to be just faithful in our actions. God wants us to be faithful in our hearts and minds.

The bible said clearly that Judas was a devil from the BEGINNING and HE is identified as the SON of PERDITION...he was never saved........!

 

[dcontroversal]

In my view, you need to accept what the bible plainly states, and also that Christ would have known Judas was a thief, while he allowed him to remain one of the twelve.

Human rationalisation, does not bring us into line with God's plans, for His thoughts are higher than ours, and so are his ways

AMEN and the bible clearly states that Judas was a devil from the beginning and the Son of Perdition...he was never saved to begin with.

 

[dcontroversal]

As for folks falsely thinking Jesus chose Judas (With him being evil already): Again, this is just silly. No. God does not choose evil people to represent His holy kingdom. It's not possible because it would be deceptive on the part of God to do so. Also, Jesus established the New Covenant and taught New Covenant. His apostles also taught New Covenant. The Spirit would not have inspired them to write about a law about the qualifications for a church leader to not be given to filthly lucrre if God (Christ) did not follow that same standard. Not only would it be unethical, but it would be inconsistent on the part of God to do so. Think about it (Not just with your heads, but with your hearts, too).

Have not I chosen you 12, and One of you is a devil? More proof that your understanding lacks heavily in the understanding part!

 

[Jason0047]

"But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him." (John 6:64).

Jesus knew from the beginning two things according to this verse above.

#1. Jesus knew those who believed not (And):
#2. Jesus knew those who would betray Him.​

Those who did not believe him were the many other disciples who just walked away from Jesus (Because they could not accept his words).

Those who would betray him ended up being Judas. For his actual betrayal of the Lord was something yet future. How so? It says so in verses 70-71.

"Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve." (John 6:70-71).

I mean think about it. You cannot betray someone if you were never faithful to them in the first place. Judas was not just faithful by his deeds or his position alone, but He was given to Jesus by the Father Himself (John 6:65; c.f. John chapter 17). Jesus chose him as a disciple. He was commissioned by Jesus to preach the gospel and to perform miracles. Yet you really would have me believe that God really makes evil people his Holy representatives? Does he still do this today?

 

[kennethcadwell]

"But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him." (John 6:64).

Jesus knew from the beginning two things according to this verse above.

#1. Jesus knew those who believed not (And):
#2. Jesus knew those who would betray Him.​

Those who did not believe him were the many other disciples who just walked away from Jesus (Because they could not accept his words).

Those who would betray him ended up being Judas. For his actual betrayal of the Lord was something yet future. How so? It says so in verses 70-71.

"Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve." (John 6:70-71).

I mean think about it. You cannot betray someone if you were never faithful to them in the first place. Judas was not just faithful by his deeds or his position alone, but He was given to Jesus by the Father Himself (John 6:65; c.f. John chapter 17). Jesus chose him as a disciple. He was commissioned by Jesus to preach the gospel and to perform miracles. Yet you really would have me believe that God really makes evil people his Holy representatives? Does he still do this today?

Yes as those words like betrayal, fall away, fall back to perdition, and fallen from grace seem to elude some others in their studies. Just like I have seen a big overlooking of the words; if, will, might, would, may, should, and continue in get overlooked constantly.

 

[dcontroversal]

Yes as those words like betrayal, fall away, fall back to perdition, and fallen from grace seem to elude some others in their studies. Just like I have seen a big overlooking of the words; if, will, might, would, may, should, and continue in get overlooked constantly.

Kind of like the words eternal, everlasting, sealed, uttermost, whatsoever, forever, not lose, grace, faith, justified, sanctified, preserved, saved, in, of, not of, etc.......!

 

[kennethcadwell]

Kind of like the words eternal, everlasting, sealed, uttermost, whatsoever, forever, not lose, grace, faith, justified, sanctified, preserved, saved, in, of, not of, etc.......!

No those words do not get overlooked, they just don't get placed before they are given.


You teach you are already redeemed now, because you believe you already have physical possession of salvation.

Yet Ephesians 4:30 says sealed tell the day of redemption, meaning the redeeming into eternal life comes later. And Paul gives a strict warning with this scripture, as he says do not grieve the Holy Spirit by still living a sinful lifestyle and follows with what the things a believer must put off (stop doing) in their lives and how they are to walk.
Then Paul continues in chapter 5 saying you must be imitators of God by walking in love and again to put off the works of the flesh (sins), as nobody who continues to do those things he says will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.

Then Paul says do not let anybody fool us in verse 5:6 that those who walk in disobedience will face God's wrath for continuing in darkness instead of walking in the light......

 

[michael56]

No those words do not get overlooked, they just don't get placed before they are given.


You teach you are already redeemed now, because you believe you already have physical possession of salvation.

Yet Ephesians 4:30 says sealed tell the day of redemption, meaning the redeeming into eternal life comes later. And Paul gives a strict warning with this scripture, as he says do not grieve the Holy Spirit by still living a sinful lifestyle and follows with what the things a believer must put off (stop doing) in their lives and how they are to walk.
Then Paul continues in chapter 5 saying you must be imitators of God by walking in love and again to put off the works of the flesh (sins), as nobody who continues to do those things he says will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.

Then Paul says do not let anybody fool us in verse 5:6 that those who walk in disobedience will face God's wrath for continuing in darkness instead of walking in the light......

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life John 5:24

 

[pem]

Will anyone on these boards that believes they are saved by their works, that is, by obeying God please say so and explain this process? I am not addressing those who think they should obey because they are saved, not in order to be saved. It seems many on these boards must believe such, since the topic is brought up so often. I await you testimony.

Roman Catholics and Arminians believe they are saved by God AND man (works salvation) This is why both roman catholics and arminians can never have assurance of faith (OSAS ) and their teachings are to be avoided ( Revelation 18:4 )

If papists and arminains believed in God ALONE they will not perish in their unbelief .

 

[kennethcadwell]

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life John 5:24

I like this scripture and the rest just like it, but once again people are misconceive by teach on what it means to believe in Him.

All we have to do is go to the words of the Lord Himself for this answer;

Jesus says those who come to Him, hear what He says, and then goes and does what He said is those who believe in Him. We can not just up and take off the doing part of belief, because if you consider one to be your Lord and Master then that means you obey and do what they say. You trust in every aspect of Him.
It really amazes me that people teach a false doctrine of we can believe in Jesus but deny to keep His teachings. That just does not hold up to the bible as even Paul says there is not condemnation to those who are in Christ who walk by the Spirit. Those who walk by the flesh Paul says the opposite that they are headed to judgment and the lake of fire.

 

[pem]

I like this scripture and the rest just like it, but once again people are misconceive by teach on what it means to believe in Him.

All we have to do is go to the words of the Lord Himself for this answer;

Jesus says those who come to Him, hear what He says, and then goes and does what He said is those who believe in Him. We can not just up and take off the doing part of belief, because if you consider one to be your Lord and Master then that means you obey and do what they say. You trust in every aspect of Him.
It really amazes me that people teach a false doctrine of we can believe in Jesus but deny to keep His teachings. That just does not hold up to the bible as even Paul says there is not condemnation to those who are in Christ who walk by the Spirit. Those who walk by the flesh Paul says the opposite that they are headed to judgment and the lake of fire.

Yet as someone who denies OSAS - its you who dont believe in the promises of Christ . You dont believe your sins are forgiven thats why you have no assurance of the faith that Christ gave you .

 

[michael56]

I like this scripture and the rest just like it, but once again people are misconceive by teach on what it means to believe in Him.

All we have to do is go to the words of the Lord Himself for this answer;

Jesus says those who come to Him, hear what He says, and then goes and does what He said is those who believe in Him. We can not just up and take off the doing part of belief, because if you consider one to be your Lord and Master then that means you obey and do what they say. You trust in every aspect of Him.
It really amazes me that people teach a false doctrine of we can believe in Jesus but deny to keep His teachings. That just does not hold up to the bible as even Paul says there is not condemnation to those who are in Christ who walk by the Spirit. Those who walk by the flesh Paul says the opposite that they are headed to judgment and the lake of fire.

You need to come to an understanding of what it means to be born again Kenneth

You need to understand that if Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness, Jesus cannot solely have died for the sins of a person before they became a Christian

You need to stop demanding of others to attain Heaven what you fail to achieve in your own life

 

[pem]

You need to come to an understanding of what it means to be born again Kenneth

You need to understand that if Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness, Jesus cannot solely have died for the sins of a person before they became a Christian

You need to stop demanding of others to attain Heaven what you fail to achieve in your own life

Great post . We either believe in Christ for Salvation (OSAS) or we dont . Those that doubt the promises of The Gospel (OSAS) are those who are still under the Law and have not been convicted of sin . But then again , those who deny OSAS usually deny Original Sin and the Penal Substitution of Christ too . Without the knowledge of Sin there is no forgiveness. Unbelief in Salvation is Sin .

 

[kennethcadwell]

Yet as someone who denies OSAS - its you who dont believe in the promises of Christ . You dont believe your sins are forgiven thats why you have no assurance of the faith that Christ gave you .

I deny OSAS because it is a new teaching that has only been around for the past 100+ years and did not get caught by the early church, and I have posted in the past many quotes form early church leaders that taught the opposite of OSAS. And the other reason why I do not side with it is because the bible clearly says that many will fall away from the faith, and Apostle Paul himself said unless you keep yourself in the faith (in His grace) do you get eternal life.
The whole epistle of Jude is about salvation and what things can keep a believer from receiving that salvation.

I am not demanding others to do anything, I am just showing the truth in scriptures.
It falls on the individual to listen and follow the Lords teaching or not. Remember the Lord is the one that says you can not call Him Lord and walk in disobedience to Him. These are not my words, they are His, and in Luke 12 He tells us about the disobedient servant. He says if He comes and finds some of His servants not doing what He said to do then He will cut them in two and appoint them a place in the lake of fire with the unbelievers.

You need to come to an understanding of what it means to be born again Kenneth

You need to understand that if Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness, Jesus cannot solely have died for the sins of a person before they became a Christian

You need to stop demanding of others to attain Heaven what you fail to achieve in your own life

I do know what it means to be born again, and being born again means you know no longer walk as you previously walked.

You know have the Holy Spirit guiding you in all things, and by walking in the Spirit you will do no wrong to self and others because the fruits of the Spirit are the opposite of the fruits of the flesh (sins). You can not sin if you are walking in the Spirit because love does no wrong, and as Paul showed in Romans 13 that love upholds all the commands of the Lord.
You can not uphold something by not following and obeying it.

Notice the scripture you gave said end of the law unto righteousness, because the righteousness of the Spirit will not lead one to sin. If a person does sin as believers still do, as the bible makes this clear that we can and will sin again, it is because we have given back into our own lusts.
Being born again does not take a persons free will away that God gave us, because God wants us to willingly love Him.
He does not force us to, and tells us the choice is ours. He says I give you life and death, choose this day who want to serve; Rather sins/unrighteousness onto death, or Him in righteousness unto eternal life.

It was the Lord that said you can not serve both flesh and Spirit, and Paul restated this in Romans 8.
Apostle Paul is talking to believers when he said sin leads to death, and righteousness leads to eternal life.

 

[michael56]

I do know what it means to be born again, and being born again means you know no longer walk as you previously walked.

You know have the Holy Spirit guiding you in all things, and by walking in the Spirit you will do no wrong to self and others because the fruits of the Spirit are the opposite of the fruits of the flesh (sins). You can not sin if you are walking in the Spirit because love does no wrong, and as Paul showed in Romans 13 that love upholds all the commands of the Lord.
You can not uphold something by not following and obeying it.

Notice the scripture you gave said end of the law unto righteousness, because the righteousness of the Spirit will not lead one to sin. If a person does sin as believers still do, as the bible makes this clear that we can and will sin again, it is because we have given back into our own lusts.
Being born again does not take a persons free will away that God gave us, because God wants us to willingly love Him.
He does not force us to, and tells us the choice is ours. He says I give you life and death, choose this day who want to serve; Rather sins/unrighteousness onto death, or Him in righteousness unto eternal life.

It was the Lord that said you can not serve both flesh and Spirit, and Paul restated this in Romans 8.
Apostle Paul is talking to believers when he said sin leads to death, and righteousness leads to eternal life.

Your belief is if a person sins they are back under the law(not in grace)

A belief of:

You are not under the law as long as you almost perfectly uphold the law? makes no sense to me, perhaps you could explain it.

The fact remains, if a person is not under a law of righteousness before God they cannot be condemned for their imperfections concerning those laws. Imperfections concerning God's laws is sin. Therefore, if Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness, Jesus died for all your sins at Calvary, past, present and future.

You need to understand the new covenant hinges on two, not one core facts:

This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”[SUP][b][/SUP][SUP]17 [/SUP]Then he adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”[SUP][c][/SUP]

[SUP]18 [/SUP]And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary Heb 10:16-18

But it is impossible to accept if you in your heart want to cling to a righteousness of your own before God

 

[kennethcadwell]

[h=1]Luke 12:42-48[/h]42 And the Lord said, “Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his master will make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of food in due season?43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes.44 Truly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all that he has.45 But if that servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, 46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.47And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.




Luke 6:46-49


And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.



Matthew 7:21


Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.





Matthew 28:16-20


The Great Commission


16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

 

[michael56]

Luke 12:42-48

42 And the Lord said, “Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his master will make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of food in due season?43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes.44 Truly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all that he has.45 But if that servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, 46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.47And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.




Luke 6:46-49


And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.



Matthew 7:21


Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.





Matthew 28:16-20


The Great Commission


16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

You haven't addressed the points made Kenneth.

 

[michael56]

Luke 12:42-48

42 And the Lord said, “Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his master will make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of food in due season?43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes.44 Truly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all that he has.45 But if that servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, 46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.47And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.




Luke 6:46-49


And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.



Matthew 7:21


Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.





Matthew 28:16-20


The Great Commission


16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Your belief is if a person sins they are back under the law(not in grace)

A belief of:

''You are not under the law as long as you almost perfectly uphold the law'' makes no sense to me, perhaps you could explain it.

The fact remains, if a person is not under a law of righteousness before God they cannot be condemned for their imperfections concerning those laws. Imperfections concerning God's laws is sin. Therefore, if Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness, Jesus died for all your sins at Calvary, past, present and future.

You need to understand the new covenant hinges on two, not one core facts:

This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”[SUP][b][/SUP][SUP]17 [/SUP]Then he adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”[SUP][c][/SUP]

[SUP]18 [/SUP]And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary Heb 10:16-18

But it is impossible to accept if you in your heart want to cling to a righteousness of your own before God