not under the law Galatians 5.

[haz]

You said "I agree the law points out sin."

so then you agree that it is sin to not keep the 7th day Sabbath.

Yes, I agree.

But under the law all the world is guilty before God, Rom 3:19.

That's why the new covenant was offered. Christians are not under the law now.

You are holding onto the ministry of condemnation/death when you preach the law. That ministry was done away.

2Cor 3:7-11
But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

 

[haz]

well then I can kill cause I can't be charged with that cause I have faith in Jesus.

now I know you don't think that but it is exactly the same.

under the law or not it is sin to kill and it is sin to forget the Sabbath.

Why do you ignore Christ's commandments?
1John 3:23.
we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
And note that the Sabbath is not listed here.

Christians should not have any desire to kill anyone, as we love one another.
And as we're not perfect in this flawed physical world, we see that love also forgives 7x70.
King David did not profit from the wrong he did, and nor do Christians. God chastises those He loves.

What we see in Christ's two commandments is:
1: In believing on Jesus our faith is counted for righteousness.
2: And in loving one another we do no ill to another, which also means we forgive one another should one of us slip up. This confirms our faith in Christ in that we show the same love/grace to others as God showed to us. That is we do not preach judgment/condemnation under the law to others because they failed to obey it.

Legalists however, are like that servant who, after the King forgave his debt when he cried for mercy, that servant promptly had a fellow servant thrown into prison because he could not pay his debt.

 

[gotime]

Why do you ignore Christ's commandments?
1John 3:23.
we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
And note that the Sabbath is not listed here.

Christians should not have any desire to kill anyone, as we love one another.
And as we're not perfect in this flawed physical world, we see that love also forgives 7x70.
King David did not profit from the wrong he did, and nor do Christians. God chastises those He loves.

What we see in Christ's two commandments is:
1: In believing on Jesus our faith is counted for righteousness.
2: And in loving one another we do no ill to another, which also means we forgive one another should one of us slip up. This confirms our faith in Christ in that we show the same love/grace to others as God showed to us. That is we do not preach judgment/condemnation under the law to others because they failed to obey it.

Legalists however, are like that servant who, after the King forgave his debt when he cried for mercy, that servant promptly had a fellow servant thrown into prison because he could not pay his debt.

That's just it I don't ignore them I believe on the name of Jesus Christ and His love in Me causes me to love others.

I have no desire to break any of Gods wonderful good and holy laws. Christians should not desire to break any of them.

The law only condemns those who break it.

 

[gotime]

Yes, I agree.

But under the law all the world is guilty before God, Rom 3:19.

That's why the new covenant was offered. Christians are not under the law now.

You are holding onto the ministry of condemnation/death when you preach the law. That ministry was done away.

2Cor 3:7-11
But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

You admit here that it is sin to not keep the 7th day Sabbath.

I have already shown that those who knowingly sin are under the law. When faith comes we are freed from sin/breaking the law.

But you admit it is sin to not keep the 7th day Sabbath and also admit that you do not keep it and also teach others it does not need to be kept.

what did Paul say?

Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under law, but under grace? God forbid.

So being under the law does not mean we can sin and it is sin to break the 7th day Sabbath as you admit.

Please seriously think about the implications.

 

[haz]

That's just it I don't ignore them I believe on the name of Jesus Christ and His love in Me causes me to love others.

I have no desire to break any of Gods wonderful good and holy laws. Christians should not desire to break any of them.

The law only condemns those who break it.

The law condemns those who are under it, Rom 3:19.

Sadly, legalists do reject Christ's commandment that we believe on him when they preach the law.

1Thess 4:3
this is the will of God, even your sanctification (which we have when we believe on Jesus, Heb 10;10), that ye should abstain from (spiritual) fornication (with Hagar, who is symbolic for righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24).

1Cor 6:17,18
But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
Flee (spiritual) fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body (of Christ we abide in) ; but he that committeth (spiritual) fornication (with Hagar/righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24) sinneth against his own body.

We cannot mix works of the law, with grace.
Rom 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

 

[haz]

I have already shown that those who knowingly sin are under the law. When faith comes we are freed from sin/breaking the law.

But you admit it is sin to not keep the 7th day Sabbath and also admit that you do not keep it and also teach others it does not need to be kept.

what did Paul say?

Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under law, but under grace? God forbid.

So being under the law does not mean we can sin and it is sin to break the 7th day Sabbath as you admit.

Please seriously think about the implications.

Whatever the law says it says to those under it, Rom 3:19.

Now Christians are not under the law (Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:25, Gal 5:18, 1Tim1:9) so why then do you reject God's word on this and claim that we are under the law and condemned by it?

I suggest you consider the implications of spiritual fornication with Hagar/righteousness by works of the law. We cannot mix works of the law, with grace, Rom 11:6.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Whatever the law says it says to those under it, Rom 3:19.

Now Christians are not under the law (Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:25, Gal 5:18, 1Tim1:9) so why then do you reject God's word on this and claim that we are under the law and condemned by it?

I suggest you consider the implications of spiritual fornication with Hagar/righteousness by works of the law. We cannot mix works of the law, with grace, Rom 11:6.

The problem that some do not understand about not being under the law because we are under grace depends on one's walk.

If you are still walking in the flesh then you are still under the law, but if you are walking by the Spirit then you abide in Christ and Christ abides in you. Because the fruits produced by the Spirit will do no wrong to self and others, so there is no need for a law to keep one in check when it comes to sin.
We have the Holy Spirit to guide us now, and if you follow that guidance He will lead you in righteousness and not uncleanness. Christ can not sin, so walking in love produces no sin.
If you do sin it is because you have given yourself back into your lust and drew yourself away from the Lord, if you continue to let that sin take back over your life and continuously obey; Then like James said if you let it get full grown to where you return to obeying it, it will bring forth death.

 

[gotime]

Whatever the law says it says to those under it, Rom 3:19.

Now Christians are not under the law (Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:25, Gal 5:18, 1Tim1:9) so why then do you reject God's word on this and claim that we are under the law and condemned by it?

I suggest you consider the implications of spiritual fornication with Hagar/righteousness by works of the law. We cannot mix works of the law, with grace, Rom 11:6.

haz seriously examine your confession,

1, you agree that sin it transgression of the law so the law points out sin.

2, you agree that it is sin to not keep the 7th day Sabbath as it is part of that law.

Paul makes it clear that not being under the law but under grace does not mean we can sin/break the law/not keep the 7th day Sabbath.

But you are trying to say that cause you are not under the law that you can disobey/sin. You are going against Paul

All your texts are not helping you cause not being under the law does not suddenly make breaking them ok, it does not suddenly make sin ok. So whatever your understanding of "under the law" it does not make it ok. And Paul is not going to contradict himself.

Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under law, but under grace? God forbid.

clearly not being under law does not make it ok to sin, God forbid Paul says. Sin as you know is breaking Gods law which the 7th day is part of.

Be careful cause notice the very next verse:

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye present yourselves as servants unto obedience, his servants ye are whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

 

[gotime]

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye present yourselves as servants unto obedience, his servants ye are whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

If you obey sin/break the law then you will get death. Death is for those who are under the law thus to sin makes you under the law. This is true in Romans 3 and in Galatians 5.

So you have a choice continue to sin or obey in Christ pray about it.

 

[vic1980]

Matthew 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

shalom

 

[Jeff_56]

why you persist to use those two texts that don't help your case I fail to see. you are blinded by your carnal hate for Gods law.

yes, as we all once were quite literally slaves of the prince of the power of the air (the devil)...

so it is no surprise in a forum open to much of the world

that many are visiting who are still blinded by the devil and not yet set free (hopefully today!?),

and even many 'religious' as Jesus says, who seek like Peter did that one infamous day not God's Way

but the way of men.... who hopefully again will turn to the truth before death so that Jesus doesn't say

to them on Judgment Day what He says to a huge multitude of people who thought they were His,

"be gone from ME , I NEVER knew you" instead of "come unto ME, welcome to MY Kingdom , thou good and faithful servant".....

 

[haz]

haz seriously examine your confession,

1, you agree that sin it transgression of the law so the law points out sin.

2, you agree that it is sin to not keep the 7th day Sabbath as it is part of that law.

Paul makes it clear that not being under the law but under grace does not mean we can sin/break the law/not keep the 7th day Sabbath.

But you are trying to say that cause you are not under the law that you can disobey/sin.

Firstly, you incorrectly assume that I'm endorsing selfish behavior. That is a common allegation that legalists make. But it's false, as you already know from my earlier post saying that Christians love one another (1John 3:23) and love does no ill to another.

Secondly, Paul is not going to contradict himself and say Christians still can be charged with sin when they're not under the law. The context of Rom 6 still distinguishes works of the law, from grace.

So what is Rom 6:15 referring to?
It refers to legalists (fornicators) who preach a lukewarm mix of works of the law, with grace.
These legalists profess that they're under grace and that they know God, but being lukewarm they turn the grace of God into lasciviousness (lust for Hagar/righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24), Jude 4.

So what sin does Rom 6:15 refer to?
1Cor 6:17,18
But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
Flee (spiritual) fornication (with Hagar/righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24). Every sin that a man doeth is without the body (of Christ we abide in); but he that committeth (spiritual) fornication (with Hagar/righteousness by works of the law) sinneth against his own body (Christ)

God forbid that anyone under grace should be lukewarm and mix works of the law with grace, thus sinning against their own body (Christ). Anyone who truly knows the truth in Christ (Heb 6:4-6) cannot repent again if they reject Christ like this. They're like a dog returning to it's vomit.

BTW, I believe that many legalists never knew the truth to begin with (Heb 6:4-6) and thus still have opportunity to repent of their dead woks of self-righteousness.

 

[MarcR]

We who believe that salvation is by grace alone agree:

1) Jesus lived a sinless life.

2) Jesus died to take upon Himself the penalty for our sin; and this is grace. We have no part in it.

3) By confessing and repenting of our sin, and by accepting God's provision for our sin, and by accepting Jesus as our Lord (owner) we receive the benefit of what Jesus did on the cross.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________


What I understand Gotime to be saying is that all the above is true; and beyond that through the Holy Spirit's indwelling, Jesus continues to obey the law in us.

I do not find that notion very different from saying that the Holy Spirit creates in us a desire to obey; except that he takes it a step further.


In any case, I do not see him denying salvation by grace alone.

He only seems to be arguing obedience by the same grace.

 

[gotime]

We who believe that salvation is by grace alone agree:

1) Jesus lived a sinless life.

2) Jesus died to take upon Himself the penalty for our sin; and this is grace. We have no part in it.

3) By confessing and repenting of our sin, and by accepting God's provision for our sin, and by accepting Jesus as our Lord (owner) we receive the benefit of what Jesus did on the cross.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________


What I understand Gotime to be saying is that all the above is true; and beyond that through the Holy Spirit's indwelling, Jesus continues to obey the law in us.

I do not find that notion very different from saying that the Holy Spirit creates in us a desire to obey; except that he takes it a step further.


In any case, I do not see him denying salvation by grace alone.

He only seems to be arguing obedience by the same grace.

weather you agree with me or not I am glad to see someone gets what I am saying. appreciate it thanx.

 

[gotime]

Firstly, you incorrectly assume that I'm endorsing selfish behavior. That is a common allegation that legalists make. But it's false, as you already know from my earlier post saying that Christians love one another (1John 3:23) and love does no ill to another.

Secondly, Paul is not going to contradict himself and say Christians still can be charged with sin when they're not under the law. The context of Rom 6 still distinguishes works of the law, from grace.

So what is Rom 6:15 referring to?
It refers to legalists (fornicators) who preach a lukewarm mix of works of the law, with grace.
These legalists profess that they're under grace and that they know God, but being lukewarm they turn the grace of God into lasciviousness (lust for Hagar/righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24), Jude 4.

So what sin does Rom 6:15 refer to?
1Cor 6:17,18
But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
Flee (spiritual) fornication (with Hagar/righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24). Every sin that a man doeth is without the body (of Christ we abide in); but he that committeth (spiritual) fornication (with Hagar/righteousness by works of the law) sinneth against his own body (Christ)

God forbid that anyone under grace should be lukewarm and mix works of the law with grace, thus sinning against their own body (Christ). Anyone who truly knows the truth in Christ (Heb 6:4-6) cannot repent again if they reject Christ like this. They're like a dog returning to it's vomit.

BTW, I believe that many legalists never knew the truth to begin with (Heb 6:4-6) and thus still have opportunity to repent of their dead woks of self-righteousness.

Paul said,

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.



Paul makes it clear that no being under the law and being under Garce does not give me license to sin. then after he has established this fact he says:

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

who you obey you are slaves to the one who you obey. note this is after Grace not before. This is stated in relation to those who are no longer under the law but under Grace.

If you obey sin you will die, but if you are in obedience to God you will be made righteous. Then He says:

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

you "were" past tense servants of sin. So the one who is in Grace should be now obedient as a posed to the one who was under law who served sin/disobedience.

Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Free from sin/disobedience to the law, we are now slaves to righteousness. Then he says:

Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

as you have yielded your members to what Iniquity/lawlessness/sin/disobedience. now yield to righteousness unto holiness.

and so on and so on.

so Paul is clear that not being under law and being under Grace does not make it ok to sin/break the law. The definition of sin does not change.

 

[Grandpa]

Paul said,

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.



Paul makes it clear that no being under the law and being under Garce does not give me license to sin. then after he has established this fact he says:

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

who you obey you are slaves to the one who you obey. note this is after Grace not before. This is stated in relation to those who are no longer under the law but under Grace.

If you obey sin you will die, but if you are in obedience to God you will be made righteous. Then He says:

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

you "were" past tense servants of sin. So the one who is in Grace should be now obedient as a posed to the one who was under law who served sin/disobedience.

Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Free from sin/disobedience to the law, we are now slaves to righteousness. Then he says:

Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

as you have yielded your members to what Iniquity/lawlessness/sin/disobedience. now yield to righteousness unto holiness.

and so on and so on.

so Paul is clear that not being under law and being under Grace does not make it ok to sin/break the law. The definition of sin does not change.

Romans 3:20-22

[SUP]20 [/SUP]Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Philippians 3:8-11

[SUP]8 [/SUP]Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
[SUP]10 [/SUP]That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
[SUP]11 [/SUP]If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Romans 10:2-7

[SUP]2 [/SUP]For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

The definition of Righteousness is what Christians are concerned with. They are dead to sin so the definiton of it is pretty much meaning-less.

 

[gotime]

Romans 3:20-22

[SUP]20 [/SUP]Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Philippians 3:8-11

[SUP]8 [/SUP]Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
[SUP]10 [/SUP]That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
[SUP]11 [/SUP]If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Romans 10:2-7

[SUP]2 [/SUP]For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

The definition of Righteousness is what Christians are concerned with. They are dead to sin so the definiton of it is pretty much meaning-less.

Hey Grandpa sorry I am not 100% sure of what your point is so forgive me if what I write next is irrelevant.

What is righteousness?

Psa 119:172 My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.

David said Gods commandments are righteous.

Paul clarifies this further:

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

The word "just" there is righteous, so Paul says the law is righteous this agrees with David.

So if the law is righteous then breaking it/sin would be unrighteous:

1Jn 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

and so John says unrighteousness is sin.

John also says this in relation to the law of God.

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

John likens righteousness with not sinning or not breaking the law. Notice also that John say not to be deceived that the one who is righteous actually does righteousness. So it is not only a spiritual reality but a physical one also.

So then how do we get this or become this righteous/law abiding citizen?

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Now notice that through one man's disobedience many were made what? sinners. notice that through Adams sin we actually became sinners, not just a spiritual reality but a physical one also. Sinners actually sin.

but through the obedience of one man/Jesus many are made what? Righteous not just a spiritual declaration but a physical reality.

again righteousness is connected with obedience and sin is connected with disobedience. every where you go in scripture new or old this is the case.

So then I conclude that through faith in Jesus Christ and his death and resurrection we are not only declared righteous but we are made righteous in Christ. The result is the actual doing of righteousness/keeping the law and not sinning anymore.

 

[gotime]

When I say we stop sinning I mean all known sin ceases, there is still growth in the Lord as we become aware of sin in our lives that we were not aware of by the conviction of the spirit. but we do not do things that we know to be sin. Cause in Christ we have victory over sin. The end result of this is eventually one will not sin at all as they grow to trust in Christ for all their needs and their faith grows in Christ's ability to keep them.

 

[haz]

Paul said,
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Paul makes it clear that no being under the law and being under Garce does not give me license to sin. then after he has established this fact he says:

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

who you obey you are slaves to the one who you obey. note this is after Grace not before. This is stated in relation to those who are no longer under the law but under Grace.

You misunderstand these scriptures.

Yes, it refers to those saved by grace, BUT, you incorrectly see it as referring to Christians still being determined righteous by works of the law. The doctrine you preach is the very sin that Rom 6:15 warns against.

Jesus took away the sin (transgression of the law/unrighteousness) of the world (John 1:29). Now what sin is still outstanding that the Holy Spirit convicts the world of? It's unbelief in Jesus, John 16:9. This is the sin Rom 6:15 refers to.

Christians fight the good fight of faith to keep the commandment to believe on Jesus, "without spot, blameless", 1Tim 6:12-14. This is the obedience Rom 6:16 refers to. It's obedience to Christ's commandment to believe on him, John 3:16. It's obedience to God's will that we believe on Jesus, John 6:40.

Rom 6:15 is the same warning that we see often in the NT, that we should not mix works of the law, with grace. That is to be lukewarm and is unbelief, as the law is not of faith, Gal 3:12. It's the same warning as Gal 3 admonishing the foolish Galatians who, having begun in the Spirit (being under grace) are now being made perfect by the flesh. They were mixing works of the law, with grace.

How does one make themselves a sinner again?
Gal 2:18
For if I build again those things which I destroyed (dead works of righteousness under the law), I make myself a transgressor/SINNER

Rom 6:15 is saying to those under grace that they should not make themselves a sinner again (going back to works of the law, Gal 2:18) whilst being under grace? The answer for all Christians should be "God forbid" that they should partake of such spiritual fornication with Hagar/righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24.

Christians should fight to win that good fight of faith to believe on Jesus.

We do not want to be like that fornicator Esau.
Heb 12:15-17
looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled; lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright. For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears.

God forbid that any Christians should reject such a great gift in Christ through the sin of unbelief (John 16:9).
Heb 6:4-6
Forit is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Your incorrect view of sin in Rom 6:15 is based solely on the SDA obsession with the law. Yet this is the very thing Rom 6:15 warns against.

Christians are not under the law (Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:25, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9).
Hence we cannot be charged with sin/transgression of the law/unrighteousness, Rom 8:33.
Thus we see the SDA argument is not supported in scripture.

If you obey sin you will die, but if you are in obedience to God you will be made righteous. Then He says:
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

you "were" past tense servants of sin. So the one who is in Grace should be now obedient as a posed to the one who was under law who served sin/disobedience.

Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Free from sin/disobedience to the law, we are now slaves to righteousness. Then he says:

Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

as you have yielded your members to what Iniquity/lawlessness/sin/disobedience. now yield to righteousness unto holiness.

and so on and so on.
so Paul is clear that not being under law and being under Grace does not make it ok to sin/break the law. The definition of sin does not change.

But who the charge of sin applies to does change.

Those who abide in Christ are covered by his righteousness/holiness/sinlessness. If we continue to believe on Jesus, fighting that good fight of faith (1Tim 6:12-14), then who shall lay ANY THING (this includes sin) to the charge of God's elect? Rom 8:33.

It's lukewarm legalists who face the charge of sin, as they have yet to repent of their dead works and truly believe on Jesus. They say "Lord, Lord", but if they don't repent of their dead works the response they will hear is "depart from me you workers of iniquity".

 

[haz]

but through the obedience of one man/Jesus many are made what? Righteous not just a spiritual declaration but a physical reality.

Here you confirm you are a legalist. You do not believe that our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.

You call unclean, what God has cleansed.
Why?
Because you cannot see that any Christian is covered by the robes of righteousness (Isa 61:10) when they believe on Jesus as is God's will (John 6:40).
Instead you only see someone as righteous if they perfectly obey the law that Christians are not even under anyway (Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:25, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9).

BTW, regarding the physical reality you look to as proof of righteousness, it's already dead (by faith, crucified with Christ, Rom 6:6) because of sin, Rom 8:10.