Abortion

[AngelFrog]

So in the end, it's not about the difficult 3% or whatever of cases. It's about defending any abortions, just because the mother doesnt want a child at a given point for whatever reason. Man can always go and find explanation or justification for himself, so I'm sure everybody can find their reasons. But do these reasons stand before God?

While I dont believe anyone can or should be legislatively forced in this regard, I believe what the Bible teaches on this and that we should tell others the truth from the Bible, not list our reasons to do this or that.

Why are you opposed to late term abortion? I'd appreciate if you'd answer this question.

I'm against late term abortion because I do not agree that it is necessary. I believe a woman who wants a late term abortion for convenience sake, not if the baby is so malformed in utero that they have no chance at life outside the womb, or any hope of a quality of life, that that woman should be taken into the surgery, put under, and induced to labor. After having had to sign a consent form relinquishing all rights to the baby and so that that baby can then be adopted to a loving family.
Because third trimester babies are able to sustain themselves outside the womb. And an organization like what was in existence at one time, "Golden Cradle" , can find a safe home for that little newborn treasure.
And the mother can be delivered from having any and all responsibility after because giving birth is less traumatic to the womb than is late term abortion.


As has been discussed it is not really possible to tell the truth from the Bible and claim in so doing that God is anti-abortion.
Truth in and of God should be foremost in the Christians life.

I love God, I love all that is God. I love and cherish his word that brings comfort in times of joy and struggle. At times just the thought of the Bible makes my heart feel as if it is literally swelling inside my chest and I crave getting my hands on my copy so I can sustain that feeling and read till my heart is content.

And because I love and cherish God and his word I cannot in good conscience ignore those scriptures that do not fit my point of view on any one topic under discussion with my fellows, or on a forum dedicated to the truth of God in Christ.

And it is for that reason that I do not argue that God is adamantly pro-life. Because the scriptures do not prove me out.
In fact, those who argue that those scriptures do exist but, and that conjunction is pivotal in a pro-life Biblical argument, God can do whatever he likes because he is God.

If God can do whatever he likes because he is God, then one cannot argue that God, who has aborted babies, and has ordered babies cut from the womb, can not then be argued to be pro-life.

And to argue that women must be forced by law, and I am not saying you are doing this, this is a broad observation applicable to those who do, to carry to term against their will, and do so from a Biblical perspective while ignoring those verses wherein God has aborted women, ordered women aborted, committed infanticide, ordered infanticide, are then proposing that secular (mans) law impart a higher moral standard on women and the unborn than what is exampled by God in the scriptures.

And that is simply bad logic and to employ that is to not only decry God and his wisdom, but it is imputing upon fallible mortal humans a higher degree of moral authority via application of secular law, than what they argue is exampled by God who can, 'do whatever he wants to because he's God.'
If one believes that they can not argue that abortion is against God, God's will, or scripture. Because all three prove that argument invalid.

 

[SoulWeaver]

I'm against late term abortion because I do not agree that it is necessary. I believe a woman who wants a late term abortion for convenience sake, not if the baby is so malformed in utero that they have no chance at life outside the womb, or any hope of a quality of life, that that woman should be taken into the surgery, put under, and induced to labor. After having had to sign a consent form relinquishing all rights to the baby and so that that baby can then be adopted to a loving family.
Because third trimester babies are able to sustain themselves outside the womb. And an organization like what was in existence at one time, "Golden Cradle" , can find a safe home for that little newborn treasure.
And the mother can be delivered from having any and all responsibility after because giving birth is less traumatic to the womb than is late term abortion.

Okay so the argument of convenience. Thanks for making that clear.

I and others here are not propagating a law that would forbid people to abort, if there was such a law in place they would just break it anyways and do what they want to do so there is kind of no point in such law. We are discussing Biblical stance on abortion.

You see Father God as a murderer of defenseless who practices and endorses abortion. It is hard to make a common ground with other Christians from that perception of God, I believe? I doubt you will find much fellowship in that opinion here.

It is worth mentioning that the tribes (Amorites, Jebusites... etc) that Israelites have been killing as a whole were not children of Adam, first of all. They were Nephilim offspring! When the Israelites spied the land, it said they were giants, of giant stature, and they looked in their sight "like grasshoppers". These people worshipped demons, put their own sons and daughters into fire, invented evil things and devoured one another and everyone around them - they needed to be ended, and God knew what He was doing.

 

[AngelFrog]

I'm growing quite tired of your putting your words in my mouth so I'll no longer be communicating with you in this thread. You don't possess the capacity to dialog as an adult mature enough to actually speak to what someone actually says and so I'll leave to your agenda.

Okay so the argument of convenience. Thanks for making that clear.

I and others here are not propagating a law that would forbid people to abort, if there was such a law in place they would just break it anyways and do what they want to do so there is kind of no point in such law. We are discussing Biblical stance on abortion.

You see Father God as a murderer of defenseless who practices and endorses abortion. It is hard to make a common ground with other Christians from that perception of God, I believe? I doubt you will find much fellowship in that opinion here.

It is worth mentioning that the tribes (Amorites, Jebusites... etc) that Israelites have been killing as a whole were not children of Adam, first of all. They were Nephilim offspring! When the Israelites spied the land, it said they were giants, of giant stature, and they looked in their sight "like grasshoppers". These people worshipped demons, put their own sons and daughters into fire, invented evil things and devoured one another and everyone around them - they needed to be ended, and God knew what He was doing.

 

[kaylagrl]

No, you attempted to renounce the prior statement. You did not prove it is invalid. You can't and use the Bible as your foundational argument that God is anti-abortion and pro-life.

And I respect that you don't want to derail the thread. However, in closing that remark I'll say that you should perhaps search the scriptures for those that pertain to God and his predestination of the world and our existence. As well as his foreknowledge to that end. Being he is omniscient and omnipotent, those two topics cannot be avoided in scripture.

Your info says you are a Christian AngelFrog but your opinion of God seems pretty low.Once again,God created life only he has the right to take it.There is no twisting this fact. You dont have the right to take life because you are not the creator. Simple.

 

[VCO]

Exactly and well said.

Women back when abortion was illegal still chose to put themselves at risk. And very often they died due to having a money hungry opportunist butcher of a doctor, if he was that, attempt the procedure he was paid in advance for.

Cemeteries bear out the end result of such barbarism as that afforded against women when they were given no lawful right to choose.
I met a man once who claimed to be Christian. In light of those facts I presented to him his response was: GOOD! They deserved to die thinking they had the right to kill a baby.

It's a horrible thing to think someone thinks like that while claiming they're pro-life. Of course he wasn't so. Not when he was so vocally anti-woman.

☝t<><

I wonder how many women would want to have an abortion,
if we passed a law that the woman had to pay for and be present
at a full Funeral Service, including a Cemetery grave site Service?


Angel, I am not insensitive or without compassion, in fact I used to Volunteer
to help man the Crisis Pregnancy Hot Line. We had links to several hundred
Christian Couples on a waiting list to adopt a baby, who could not have children
of their own for medical reasons. Please think about how hurt each of those
young couples felt, mourned, and cried every time they heard about yet another
abortion.

CRISIS PREGNANCY HOTLINE, has chapters all over the Country with Volunteers
manning the phones, 24/7. Here is one: index
They provide help in the following ways:

All services are free and confidential.
This is a partial list of available services.
Please contact us with any questions.

• 
  [*]Pregnancy tests
  [*]Counseling
  [*]Maternity clothes
  [*]Baby clothes (up to size 6)
  [*]Baby beds
  [*]Prenatal vitamins
  [*]Help with first doctor's visit
• Referral to other agencies providing financial and other services
• Pregnancy Friendship Program
• Help with connecting with Adoptions Services

Their phone number is: 812-934-5116

• This chapter happens to be in Batesville, IN 47006.

They also Help Parents find community services:

[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]There are many resources available to assist women faced with an unplanned pregnancy who choose to raise the baby themselves. While raising a child may be the hardest thing you ever do, it can also be the most rewarding. Please contact us if you have any questions or would like to talk to someone about your decision.

• Financial aid
• Food assistance/nutritional information
• Childbirth classes
• Prenatal care
• Mother and baby care
• Breastfeeding support
• Immunization clinics
• Counseling
• Horizons single parent homemaker project
• Trustee

You may be surprised at how compassionate the voice on the other end of the line is.
Their agency also provides Post Abortion Counseling, which specializes in counseling the very common post abortion depression and guilt.

That phone number is: 1-877-886-4673[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

No, they do not provide Help or Referrals to have an abortion.
​

 

[VCO]

Your info says you are a Christian AngelFrog but your opinion of God seems pretty low.Once again,God created life only he has the right to take it.There is no twisting this fact. You dont have the right to take life because you are not the creator. Simple.

I know a lot of young Christians have criticized GOD for killing Ananias and his wife Sapphira for lying to the Holy Spirit, who is also GOD. Those who have criticized GOD, all made the same mistake; they asked the wrong question:

They asked, "Why did GOD kill Ananaias and Sapphira?

When they should have been asking, "Why did GOD not kill me, when I lied to HIM?"

The young Christian tends ONLY think of GOD as a LOVING GOD.

And FAIL to remember HE is a PERFECTLY JUST GOD, and PERFECTLY MERCIFUL GOD.


So why did GOD kill them, besides as an example for us, of the penalty lying to GOD deserves?

They were also guilty of Idolatry.

Colossians 3:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity,
passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry.

Matthew 6:24 (ESV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] “No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.


For those unfamiliar with the real story of Ananias and Sapphira, they were wealthy and they had promised the Holy Spirit to sell a piece property and give it all to help the Christian brothers in Jerusalem, who had lost there Jobs. Historians tell us that those who had converted to Christianity, would find that their jobs had been terminated.

Acts 5:1-11 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property,
[SUP]2 [/SUP] and kept back some of the price for himself, with his wife's full knowledge, and bringing a portion of it, he laid it at the apostles' feet.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land?
[SUP]4 [/SUP] "While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."
[SUP]5 [/SUP] And as he heard these words, Ananias fell down and breathed his last; and great fear came over all who heard of it.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] The young men got up and covered him up, and after carrying him out, they buried him.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Now there elapsed an interval of about three hours, and his wife came in, not knowing what had happened.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] And Peter responded to her, "Tell me whether you sold the land for such and such a price?" And she said, "Yes, that was the price."
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Then Peter said to her, "Why is it that you have agreed together to put the Spirit of the Lord to the test? Behold, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out as well."
[SUP]10 [/SUP] And immediately she fell at his feet and breathed her last, and the young men came in and found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] And great fear came over the whole church, and over all who heard of these things.

 

[kaylagrl]

I know a lot of young Christians have criticized GOD for killing Ananias and his wife Sapphira for lying to the Holy Spirit, who is also GOD. Those who have criticized GOD, all made the same mistake; they asked the wrong question:

They asked, "Why did GOD kill Ananaias and Sapphira?

When they should have been asking, "Why did GOD not kill me, when I lied to HIM?"

The young Christian tends ONLY think of GOD as a LOVING GOD.

And FAIL to remember HE is a PERFECTLY JUST GOD, and PERFECTLY MERCIFUL GOD.


So why did GOD kill them, besides as an example for us, of the penalty lying to GOD deserves?

They were also guilty of Idolatry.

Colossians 3:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity,
passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry.

Matthew 6:24 (ESV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] “No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.


For those unfamiliar with the real story of Ananias and Sapphira, they were wealthy and they had promised the Holy Spirit to sell a piece property and give it all to help the Christian brothers in Jerusalem, who had lost there Jobs. Historians tell us that those who had converted to Christianity, would find that their jobs had been terminated.

Acts 5:1-11 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property,
[SUP]2 [/SUP] and kept back some of the price for himself, with his wife's full knowledge, and bringing a portion of it, he laid it at the apostles' feet.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land?
[SUP]4 [/SUP] "While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."
[SUP]5 [/SUP] And as he heard these words, Ananias fell down and breathed his last; and great fear came over all who heard of it.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] The young men got up and covered him up, and after carrying him out, they buried him.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Now there elapsed an interval of about three hours, and his wife came in, not knowing what had happened.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] And Peter responded to her, "Tell me whether you sold the land for such and such a price?" And she said, "Yes, that was the price."
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Then Peter said to her, "Why is it that you have agreed together to put the Spirit of the Lord to the test? Behold, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out as well."
[SUP]10 [/SUP] And immediately she fell at his feet and breathed her last, and the young men came in and found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] And great fear came over the whole church, and over all who heard of these things.

Yes,very good points.God is sovereign and we have no right to question His will. Job also found this out.

 

[p_rehbein]

Just a thought here, but if believers can not agree on abortion, they can hardly expect our Government or Nation to can they?

 

[Utah]

Your info says you are a Christian AngelFrog but your opinion of God seems pretty low.Once again,God created life only he has the right to take it.There is no twisting this fact. You don't have the right to take life because you are not the creator. Simple.

Having the gospel according to Thomas at the bottom of one's posts is interesting.

 

[AngelFrog]

Amazing! You want to penalize a woman for having an abortion by forcing her, by law, to pay for a funeral for what can be tissue the size of her big toe. Why is it you don't want to force women who suffer miscarriage to do that? How about men who have sex outside of marriage, single men or married adulterers? Should they be forced to have a prayer service for the condoms they throw away? How many children in fostering have you adopted?

☝t

 

[AngelFrog]

Having the gospel according to Thomas at the bottom of one's posts is interesting.

Yes, it is. Now, are you going to start making this about me? Or are you going to stay on topic? If you can't talk about the subject, make it personal, right?

 

[AngelFrog]

Just a thought here, but if believers can not agree on abortion, they can hardly expect our Government or Nation to can they?

Our American government via SCOTUS already figured the issue of abortion out. It's legal based on 9th and 14th Amendment right.

When scriptures tell us we should obey those put in power over us because they are seated by the will and power of God what does it say of the Christians that attack those empowered? Who are doing God's will? What's it say of Christians who attack other Christians faith because they disagree with their point of view? I wonder if Christians here who personally attack other Christians would pursue that line if Jesus himself were standing behind them watching them type at the keyboard.


And to beat the critics to it, I'd certainly not change a thing I've written. Because Jesus, who was God, is well aware of all he did in the old testament. It isn't news to him. However, it does read to be unpalatable news to some here. Who can't stand that a woman tells them her womb is none of their business.

Especially when hypocrisy is at issue for those who demand a woman remain pregnant against her will and yet they themselves have never adopted a single child that was brought into this world by choice, and was signed over to the State as an unwanted child by choice too.

 

[PennEd]

Our American government via SCOTUS already figured the issue of abortion out. It's legal based on 9th and 14th Amendment right.

When scriptures tell us we should obey those put in power over us because they are seated by the will and power of God what does it say of the Christians that attack those empowered? Who are doing God's will? What's it say of Christians who attack other Christians faith because they disagree with their point of view? I wonder if Christians here who personally attack other Christians would pursue that line if Jesus himself were standing behind them watching them type at the keyboard.


And to beat the critics to it, I'd certainly not change a thing I've written. Because Jesus, who was God, is well aware of all he did in the old testament. It isn't news to him. However, it does read to be unpalatable news to some here. Who can't stand that a woman tells them her womb is none of their business.

Especially when hypocrisy is at issue for those who demand a woman remain pregnant against her will and yet they themselves have never adopted a single child that was brought into this world by choice, and was signed over to the State as an unwanted child by choice too.

If you apply your reasoning, then the Germans who put the Jews in gas chambers and furnaces were just obeying THEIR government and not sinning!

 

[AngelFrog]

If you apply your reasoning, then the Germans who put the Jews in gas chambers and furnaces were just obeying THEIR government and not sinning!

Godwin's Law! How sad. (Hitler was a Catholic)

 

[PennEd]

Godwin's Law! How sad. (Hitler was a Catholic)

Ummm... ok, but the point remains. Your assertion that citizens should blindly follow the dictates of their government because God ordained that government is patently absurd as demonstrated by by my previous post.

 

[kennethcadwell]

The bible shows we are to follow and obey those in power in our government unless it goes against His ways, as He says we are to obey Him over man. So if our government approves or is trying to approve something like abortion that is against His will we are not to support it. Apostle Paul tells Apostle Timothy that if you support another's sin you make yourself guilty of sin as well.
I have started a thread in the past on how Romans 13 is misused so often by Christians, because there was a handful in a political thread speaking on this subject and misusing it. The Apostles were all beaten and put to death except for John who was exiled because they preached the word of God instead of obeying the laws of the land when told to stop. Then you have the issue with the man of sin, and those who take his mark. The bible says nobody who receives the mark will get eternal life, so if we are still here when he comes to power and initiates his mark, those who take it will be cast into the lake of fire. So by the understanding to say we have to obey all the laws, then when this happens we would have to obey to receive the mark. I don't think so !!!!

 

[Utah]

Yes, it is. Now, are you going to start making this about me? Or are you going to stay on topic? If you can't talk about the subject, make it personal, right?

Don't worry about what I'm saying. Jesus says by our words we are vindicated and by our words we are condemned. Your vitriolic words towards children in the womb and your insulting attitude towards God are demonic at best, and you are most definitely condemning yourself more and more with each syllable. I thank God you were not aborted. You might want to embrace a similar outlook towards all humanity.

 

[Utah]

I wonder if Christians here who personally attack other Christians would pursue that line if Jesus himself were standing behind them watching them type at the keyboard.

If attacking someone was what it took to cause a change of heart and thus save lives, you better believe I'm going to attack. Saving lives trumps precious egos, and I type this knowing full well Jesus is aware I'm doing so.

 

[AngelFrog]

Ummm... ok, but the point remains. Your assertion that citizens should blindly follow the dictates of their government because God ordained that government is patently absurd as demonstrated by by my previous post.

Please copy and paste from my prior post where I said Christians should blindly follow the dictates of their government because God ordained that government.

Thanks.

 

[AngelFrog]

If attacking someone was what it took to cause a change of heart and thus save lives, you better believe I'm going to attack. Saving lives trumps precious egos, and I type this knowing full well Jesus is aware I'm doing so.

What an ego you have. Prideful too. Both sins of course. And to remind you that you are not in Heaven. You are on a forum wherein there are rules that tell you personal attacks are in violation of those rules.

Your attitude doesn't save lives. It shows what your faith causes you to become and toward other Christians. And it tells those who may be seekers of the way what the way can inspire in the professing Christian that acts as you do toward other Christians. And as you defend your actions as if you are able to save lives.
Jesus saves souls! Does you attitude draw people to Christ? Or does it repel people by example?
[h=3]Proverbs 29:11
[/h][h=3] [/h][h=3][/h] A fool gives full vent to his spirit, but a wise man quietly holds it back.