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H
haz
Guest
And can you explain your quote below.
Righteous people do righteousness.
You refer to speaking in different contexts of either a mature Christians or else a new weak in faith Christian. How do you explain your quote above in the 2 differing contexts you refer to?
Are you saying the weak in faith new Christian is not righteous because they do not obey the law perfectly (doing righteousness)?
And what about mature Christians who fail to keep the law perfectly? Are they also unrighteous because they fail to obey the law perfectly (doing righteousness)?
And finally you again spoke of "overcoming". You used this term in an earlier post, distinguishing between one being a full overcomer, as opposed to one not being a full overcomer.
Now as the thief on the cross did not have any works of the law to support his admittance into God's kingdom, are you saying that he was not a full overcomer?
In answering please consider these scriptures below where God tells us how we overcome, which shows that that thief on the cross was a full overcomer, and that without any deeds of the law.
1John 5:5
Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.
Rev 12:11
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.
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And can you explain your quote below.
Originally Posted by gotime
Righteous people do righteousness.
You refer to speaking in different contexts of either a mature Christians or else a new weak in faith Christian. How do you explain your quote above in the 2 differing contexts you refer to?
Are you saying the weak in faith new Christian is not righteous because they do not obey the law perfectly (doing righteousness)?
And what about mature Christians who fail to keep the law perfectly? Are they also unrighteous because they fail to obey the law perfectly (doing righteousness)?
And finally you again spoke of "overcoming". You used this term in an earlier post, distinguishing between one being a full overcomer, as opposed to one not being a full overcomer.
Now as the thief on the cross did not have any works of the law to support his admittance into God's kingdom, are you saying that he was not a full overcomer?
In answering please consider these scriptures below where God tells us how we overcome, which shows that that thief on the cross was a full overcomer, and that without any deeds of the law.
1John 5:5
Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.
Rev 12:11
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.
First of all how does one become righteous?
H
haz
Guest
Here I see from your wording that you refer to Heb 6:4-6.
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame
Are you saying that any mature Christian who slips up by failing to obey the law perfectly, cannot be renewed unto repentance, as Heb 6:4-6 clearly states?
As you know I have a very different understanding of Heb 6:4-6 than you do, but as your focus is upon the law that is why I pose these questions.
H
haz
Guest
Our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.
So how do you claim Christians are to do righteousness?
And can you explain your quote below.
Originally Posted by gotime
Righteous people do righteousness.
You refer to speaking in different contexts of either a mature Christians or else a new weak in faith Christian. How do you explain your quote above in the 2 differing contexts you refer to?
Are you saying the weak in faith new Christian is not righteous because they do not obey the law perfectly?
And what about mature Christians who fail to keep the law perfectly? Are they also unrighteous because they fail to obey the law perfectly (doing righteousness)?
And finally you again spoke of "overcoming". You used this term in earlier, distinguishing between one being a full overcomer, as opposed to one not being a full overcomer.
Now as the thief on the cross did not have any works of the law to support his admittance into God's kingdom, are you saying that he was not a full overcomer?
In answering please consider these scriptures below where God tells us how we overcome, which shows that that thief on the cross was a full overcomer, and that without any deeds of the law.
1John 5:5
Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.
Rev 12:11
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.
Good question this is how I see it.
When one accepts Christ as savior they are imputed the righteousness of Christ by faith right then and there.
It is this righteousness that shines out of a person and gets brighter and brighter as time goes by. The righteous works become greater and greater as a result of the imputed righteousness of Christ.
A man may walk with Jesus for 50 years and do far more righteous works because of that imputed righteousness but that person is no more righteous than the their on the cross that believed in Jesus. For they are the same.
As you have shown in the two verses, overcoming is in trust in Christ. But the one who has walked longer will bear more fruit while the new born will bear little fruit but both are righteous and both do righteousness according to the Spirit that works in them.
Both are equally saved and both for the same reason. A mature tree simply bears more fruit.
you asked about mature Christians that fail, again that depends thus the difficulty in answering the question. mature does not mean all knowing. So how mature are we talking, I believe that we can mature in Christ to the point where we no longer sin at all. That is just the result of a close relationship with Jesus. Does that mean that anyone who has not got there is not saved? no how else would the thief be saved?
Salvation is the result of faith in Jesus. Fruit is the result of a close relationship with Jesus.
Does that answer your questions at all?
H
haz
Guest
To do righteousness is perfect obedience to the law of righteousness.
Anyone who fails with just ONE OFFENCE is guilty of all the law, James 2:10.
Hence I'm at a loss to understand how one's righteousness gets "brighter and brighter", as in gradually getting closer to perfect obedience.
Its purely a case of whether you are perfectly obeying the law, consistently, every day once you receive Christ (remember that only PAST sin was remitted at the cross, Rom 3:25), and if not then you're guilty of all the law, James 2:10. Scripture clearly shows there is no gradual path to doing righteousness.
BTW, note also Paul's view on doing righteousness by works of the law.
Phil 3:6-9
concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;
H
haz
Guest
Note Matt 7:1-5 regarding the log in the eye..
Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.
And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye?
Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye?
Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
Consider also the context within the NT of grace verses righteousness by works of the law.
The log in the eye refers to ( as the context suggests "JUDGE NOT...") judging righteousness by works of the law.
I'm not judging gotime's righteousness by works of the law.
Instead I'm challenging any doctrine that preaches righteousness by works of the law, including those that mix works of the law, with grace (which Rom 11:6 says we cannot do).
I believe that the longer you spend with Jesus the more changed you become. That is my experience. The longer I walk with Him the more I get to know Him the more I reflect His image. That is what Jesus does to us, That is why I said brighter and brighter.
Do you not experience this?
Php 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
and here:
2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Are you suggesting that we do not grow in Christ?
Now I am confused cause this seems to contradict things I have read you say. I will assume it is my understanding that makes that contradiction.
We are not under the law for righteousness. I speak not of the works of the law but rather the righteousness of faith.
You are right that to do righteousness is to obey the law, but this is the work of Christ in us the hope of Glory. it is not something we do for Jesus but something He does in us. But we do not become a fully mature grown person over night we learn and grow in Christ to maturity.
Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
and again:
1Pe 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
1Pe 2:3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
H
haz
Guest
In considering your post above I draw your attention to a couple of points.
Firstly, you use the law as the measuring stick for righteousness. Agreed?
Now we both know that righteousness is PERFECT obedience to the law, James 2:10.
If we offend in just ONE point then we're guilty of all the law.
So I hope you'll now see that the "righteous works" you speak of in your quote above are not righteous works unless they're PERFECT obedience to the law.
You cannot have 99% obedience to the law and call it righteous works.
James 2:10 says that 99% obedience to the law is being "guilty of ALL the law".
Can I suggest you change your wording and leave out terminology such as righteous work when it's not consistently PERFECT obedience. Your reference to a gradual righteousness getting "brighter and brighter as time goes by" in a Christian is not in accord with scripture.
H
haz
Guest
I agree.
BTW that does not include keeping the physical Sabbath and thinking that that is somehow being righteous.
God is spiritual. Christians are spiritual. The law is spiritual. And we look to enter into God's spiritual rest.
I think we both have a different idea of growing in Christ.
Whilst we both agree that Christians should love one another, you argue that this is a measure of our righteousness which is determined by works of the law.
The scriptures you quoted above all refer to fighting the good fight of faith, keeping the commandment to believe on Jesus, without spot and blameless, 1Tim 6:12-14, 2Tim 4:7.
H
haz
Guest
Yes, I understand you speak of righteousness by faith. And to expand further on what I understand from your doctrine, your saying that this righteousness by faith is consistent PERFECT obedience to the law, in this physical life.
However, I might add that the law is not of faith, Gal 3:12, hence I do not agree with your mixing works of the law with our faith being counted for righteousness (Rom 4:5).
And as your quote earlier said,
Righteous people do righteousness.
BTW from your later posts I understand you might also be saying that Righteous people do NOT do righteousness. Is that correct? After all you did say that those who fail to obey the law, such as the likes of the thief on the cross, etc, are righteous just as much as those who do PERFECTLY obey the law.
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We will be judged, scripture says, based on what we did and did not do. Now the law givers love that proof. Yet it is not proof of any act in the"old Man." For God was not referring to the Old Man... This statement is based on the "New man"...judgements.
So if sinlessness is possible, why do we screw up sometimes?...easy we don't stay in the "New mans victory". And God even has a plan for that in His Grace and Mercy thru forgiveness. Yet He calls us not to stay in that Grace loophole. What shall we say then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? BY NO MEANS! was His answer. Grow up in what you have been given in the complete victory of Christs sacrifice.
You see the chapter in History, we currently live in, between God and Satan is that we have all the answers to victory but will we chose it? Thats the battle. Satan wants to pay God back for his burn. And he does that by damaging the thing God loves the most...His children.
I'm a Father of three...You want to hurt me?...Beat on my kids and make them think my truths are in error, even when all my truths are to help and prosper my kids into their happiness. And in God's case all His truths are never wrong. Unlike my attempts sometimes.
So this chapter we call LIFE,for each of us, is The deciding moment to our eternity. roughly 90 years or so vs. Eternity think of that! Yet even if it would be a horrible a life to live for those 90 years, it would still be a good trade-off to the eternity in Hell option. Yet God offers peace and Joy and victory in THIS life too.And the wicked don't have that in THIS life.
God has fooled Satan. He thought, and I can see Satans hands rolling with glee when he says this, "They screwed up in the Garden...suckers!...now I am about to wipe out the Hope of their return to God by killing their victory."
But God had other plans...He went to a level in Love Satan can't relate to, or saw coming. Even , Satan knows of Gods complete Authority and He never figured A God like that would love so greatly as that. And neither, by the way, does this world.
He,... God came and served us, thru Christ..to a point of a horrific death on the cross, where the stress was so much in His betrayal at the end from Gods letting Go of Him, that temporarily His heart filled with water and blood and it gushed out of Him. Scientists tell us this only happens in extreme stressful situations. Gods sacrifice of His son won our sins power away from Satans grip. I am dismayed when I here people say we can not have complete victory over sin. Because you just robbed the whole reality of Jesus' life here. And robbed the power of His death. As a Christian where is the Honor and respect and understanding of your own faith?
But now as he arose and claimed Victory by romping thru Hell and making the new house of Hell be His imprisonment, Satan is left now with this last ditch effort to have something go his way. That something is to win our souls for eternal torment for eternity....Satan's ultimate payback plan.
I don't know about you but NO THANKS SATAN>>> think I will pass on that date!
But then God says this thing about how he will judge us Christians. To some, it seems to contradict His statements about the uselessness of the Power of the Law to make a path into Heaven.
But it is NOT contradicting at all....If we live in the "NEW MAN" ..which means ..NOT repairing any part of the old one..For if we were found Dead in our transgressions and sins...how can anything dead be fixed? It needs to be replaced!
Because of the "It is Finished saga of Jesus' life and death on a cross...the provisions to heaven for us is now done..completely and forever! 1John 5:11-12.....Not based on ...any silly useless and powerless works of any kind even the harsh ones!
And if we are attached at the hip to Jesus' History and righteousness, based on Him and "NOT OUR DOINGS"....why, then, can't we expect to succeed at what God asks us to do?
concluding in the" we will be judged by what we did and did not do," statement. It's a test of our trust in Him not performance. God already knows what He can do. So our judgement is based on God Himself not even us, except whether or not we Faithfully trust Him ....to a point of obedience in His power.
He says faith without works is dead.He says if you love me you will obey my commandments...The first step in succeeding in our lives IN christ is the last step in the worlds philosophy...The world says "DO First"...earn it!, "THEN rest"..
God says "SIT first"...in things already accomplished in Christ...Then GO, and be my Ambassadors of Me, thru obedience of my leading... And, finally, Stand against the devil thru my authority and power...retirement, by the way, never happens...Judgement day is our retirement. God Bless.
So if sinlessness is possible, why do we screw up sometimes?...easy we don't stay in the "New mans victory". And God even has a plan for that in His Grace and Mercy thru forgiveness. Yet He calls us not to stay in that Grace loophole. What shall we say then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? BY NO MEANS! was His answer. Grow up in what you have been given in the complete victory of Christs sacrifice.
You see the chapter in History, we currently live in, between God and Satan is that we have all the answers to victory but will we chose it? Thats the battle. Satan wants to pay God back for his burn. And he does that by damaging the thing God loves the most...His children.
I'm a Father of three...You want to hurt me?...Beat on my kids and make them think my truths are in error, even when all my truths are to help and prosper my kids into their happiness. And in God's case all His truths are never wrong. Unlike my attempts sometimes.
So this chapter we call LIFE,for each of us, is The deciding moment to our eternity. roughly 90 years or so vs. Eternity think of that! Yet even if it would be a horrible a life to live for those 90 years, it would still be a good trade-off to the eternity in Hell option. Yet God offers peace and Joy and victory in THIS life too.And the wicked don't have that in THIS life.
God has fooled Satan. He thought, and I can see Satans hands rolling with glee when he says this, "They screwed up in the Garden...suckers!...now I am about to wipe out the Hope of their return to God by killing their victory."
But God had other plans...He went to a level in Love Satan can't relate to, or saw coming. Even , Satan knows of Gods complete Authority and He never figured A God like that would love so greatly as that. And neither, by the way, does this world.
He,... God came and served us, thru Christ..to a point of a horrific death on the cross, where the stress was so much in His betrayal at the end from Gods letting Go of Him, that temporarily His heart filled with water and blood and it gushed out of Him. Scientists tell us this only happens in extreme stressful situations. Gods sacrifice of His son won our sins power away from Satans grip. I am dismayed when I here people say we can not have complete victory over sin. Because you just robbed the whole reality of Jesus' life here. And robbed the power of His death. As a Christian where is the Honor and respect and understanding of your own faith?
But now as he arose and claimed Victory by romping thru Hell and making the new house of Hell be His imprisonment, Satan is left now with this last ditch effort to have something go his way. That something is to win our souls for eternal torment for eternity....Satan's ultimate payback plan.
I don't know about you but NO THANKS SATAN>>> think I will pass on that date!
But then God says this thing about how he will judge us Christians. To some, it seems to contradict His statements about the uselessness of the Power of the Law to make a path into Heaven.
But it is NOT contradicting at all....If we live in the "NEW MAN" ..which means ..NOT repairing any part of the old one..For if we were found Dead in our transgressions and sins...how can anything dead be fixed? It needs to be replaced!
Because of the "It is Finished saga of Jesus' life and death on a cross...the provisions to heaven for us is now done..completely and forever! 1John 5:11-12.....Not based on ...any silly useless and powerless works of any kind even the harsh ones!
And if we are attached at the hip to Jesus' History and righteousness, based on Him and "NOT OUR DOINGS"....why, then, can't we expect to succeed at what God asks us to do?
concluding in the" we will be judged by what we did and did not do," statement. It's a test of our trust in Him not performance. God already knows what He can do. So our judgement is based on God Himself not even us, except whether or not we Faithfully trust Him ....to a point of obedience in His power.
He says faith without works is dead.He says if you love me you will obey my commandments...The first step in succeeding in our lives IN christ is the last step in the worlds philosophy...The world says "DO First"...earn it!, "THEN rest"..
God says "SIT first"...in things already accomplished in Christ...Then GO, and be my Ambassadors of Me, thru obedience of my leading... And, finally, Stand against the devil thru my authority and power...retirement, by the way, never happens...Judgement day is our retirement. God Bless.
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