sinless? or sinning less.

  • Thread starter Thread starter Tasha88
  • Start date Start date
  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
gotime said:
.
. I don't think that everyone who does not keep the Sabbath is unsaved. Most do not keep it because they just don't understand it yet.
Click to expand...


Hi gotime.

In addition to your quote above, you had said in an earlier post that those who commit adultery are unsaved.

Just need you to clarify yourself as these 2 quotes of yours seem to be contradictory by implying that adultery is a worse sin than failing to keep the Sabbath.

You claim that if a Christian does not keep the Sabbath then they are not lost.

But you also claim that if a Christian commits adultery then they are lost.

Are you saying adultery is a much more grievous sin than not keeping the Sabbath and that is why those who commit adultery are lost?
 
haz said:
Hi gotime.

In addition to your quote above, you had said in an earlier post that those who commit adultery are unsaved.

Just need you to clarify yourself as these 2 quotes of yours seem to be contradictory by implying that adultery is a worse sin than failing to keep the Sabbath.

You claim that if a Christian does not keep the Sabbath then they are not lost.

But you also claim that if a Christian commits adultery then they are lost.

Are you saying adultery is a much more grievous sin than not keeping the Sabbath and that is why those who commit adultery are lost?
Click to expand...

I did not clarify maybe, i was speaking about those who commit open adultery say by sleeping with someone who is not their partner etc. If the love of God is on our heart I very much doubt one could not be aware of the hurt that causes. maybe possible but I can't see how.

however that is just the letter of the law, we both know adultery is deeper than just sleeping with someone. So there could be other aspects of Adultery that a converted christian is doing without realizing its sin.

We are getting into nitty gritty here which is not for us to judge.

But hope that helps clear things up a bit.
 
we cannot change GOD words his commandments he is the same today yesterday on tomorrow he will never changes the only way we can save is to obey him the only
 
Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Paul is explaining that verse 2 and 3 is how we become dead to the law by the body of Christ.

Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

We are in the flesh while our first husband is still alive. As long as the first husband lives, our members bring forth fruit unto death... notice that it's not the other way around. Being in "the flesh" has nothing to do with our works or our actions. It only has to do with our status with our first husband. In other words, walking in the flesh has nothing to do with our works or our actions but rather has the first husband been crucified with Christ or not.
 
gotime said:
I did not clarify maybe, i was speaking about those who commit open adultery say by sleeping with someone who is not their partner etc. If the love of God is on our heart I very much doubt one could not be aware of the hurt that causes. maybe possible but I can't see how.
Click to expand...

So I'm just curious how you see the common examples we see of adultery amongst Christians today.
Many Christians today follow the secular trend of divorcing their partner and then marry another.

But Mark 10:11,12 calls this adultery.
So He said to them, “Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her. And if a woman divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery

Are you saying that any divorced Christians who goes against what Mark 10:11,12 and marries another are still saved but merely just do not understand that they're into adultery?

Also, note your quote below.

gotime said:
Righteous people do righteousness.
Click to expand...

Are you saying that Christians who neglect the physical Sabbath, or divorce their partner and then marry another (adultery, Mark 10:11,12), are not righteous because they are not doing righteousness?
 
michael56 said:
I think realistically we have to accept a seventh day Adventist, come what may will never change their mind about the insistence of accepting a Saturday Sabbath. They would have to give up their core belief that sets them apart from mainstream to do so. Their church, in effect would in all likelihood cease to exist

I asked a seventh day Adventist-who accepted I was a Christian-and also accepted under the new covenant the law is written on our mind and placed on our heart God requires us to keep, why they believed I had no heartfelt conviction I was sinning by refusing to accept a specific Saturday Sabbath. They simply said they had no answer to that question, but although they could not answer it, they stuck firmly to their belief.

If I am honest, I can say to some degree I have been guilty of digging in my heels at times, though on quiet reflection I have questioned something I may have previously considered correct.

Your points are great, I do not mean to suggest they should not be made, it is just having spent more time with some SDA of late, I better appreciate what the responses must-or will be
Click to expand...

Thanks Michael.

I'm always interested to hear your experiences with the various churches you've been to.
I don't think I've had quite your extent of experience in different churches, but I've encountered many Adventists, some of whom have been friends and work colleagues. Thus I have some knowledge where they're coming from.

No doubt you'll agree that like many churches, Adventists are a diverse group expressing quite divergent views on doctrine.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
i was hindered by sda remnant teachings in the past. Within the last few months i have really grown since being set free from their teachings. You know what woke me up? i asked them to substantiate their claims here at cc in live debate and they told me they were busy in conference and could not do anything but wanted me to cut and paste from their website and show everyone here.......Big eye opener!
 
gotime said:
Just to point out something:

The Gentile believers had the love of God put on their hearts yet they still needed instruction:

Act 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Why did they need this instruction if the law was on their heart?

Because the law is love not knowledge, love does not make someone automatically cease to eat meats offered to Idols. Knowledge is required especially if you have grown up eating it thinking nothing of it. etc.

by the way these are Gentile believers it stands to reason that they have already been instructed in many things already. So not this is note all that was expected of them.
Click to expand...

As you said yesterday, specific knowledge was needed in order to observe a Saturday Sabbath, why did the church not give that ''knowledge at the council of Jerusalem and state a Saturday Sabbath must be observed by Gentile converts?

As to the laws they did ask Gentiles to follow, it is widely believed three of those were given simply to appease Jewish legalists who had become Christians. Don't forget, some of these people wanted Gentiles to be required to obey the whole law and be circumcised.
I am glsad you brought this point up. It proves Gentiles were not asked to observe a Saturday Sabbath. But new denominations spring up, led often by the flesh(or misguided motives) They like to believe they have the truth and others need to be where they are. I was brought up with it, in a different church to your own
 
michael56 said:
As you said yesterday, specific knowledge was needed in order to observe a Saturday Sabbath, why did the church not give that ''knowledge at the council of Jerusalem and state a Saturday Sabbath must be observed by Gentile converts? as for this point they met daily and not weekly.

As to the laws they did ask Gentiles to follow, it is widely believed three of those were given simply to appease Jewish legalists who had become Christians. Don't forget, some of these people wanted Gentiles to be required to obey the whole law and be circumcised.
I am glsad you brought this point up. It proves Gentiles were not asked to observe a Saturday Sabbath. But new denominations spring up, led often by the flesh(or misguided motives) They like to believe they have the truth and others need to be where they are. I was brought up with it, in a different church to your own
Click to expand...
This is because man became self righteous and honoring a day fulfills they want to be our own God and refutes the work of the cross.
 
gotime said:
Just to point out something:

The Gentile believers had the love of God put on their hearts yet they still needed instruction:

Act 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Why did they need this instruction if the law was on their heart?

Because the law is love not knowledge, love does not make someone automatically cease to eat meats offered to Idols. Knowledge is required especially if you have grown up eating it thinking nothing of it. etc.

by the way these are Gentile believers it stands to reason that they have already been instructed in many things already. So not this is note all that was expected of them.
Click to expand...

You wrote:

'''I disagree on that point, I don't believe God writes knowledge on our hearts, but puts his love in our hearts.

The word gives us Knowledge and it is His love in us that causes us to obey that word.

I had the law written on my heart also, but not that Sabbath. that was because love automatically does not steal from others. why? cause we love them.

For example, when I fell in love with my wife, I did not need a law in order to treat her nice, I did not need some special knowledge to respect her. Love made those things automatic. But doing something special on her birthday required more than just love, I needed the knowledge of what day was her birthday.

Or if there was something she really liked. My love for her could not fulfill it until I had the knowledge of that thing she liked then my love for her compelled me to get that thing.

So it is with the Sabbath, God does not write keep the Sabbath on our hearts. but he put His love in my heart, it was not until through the word that I gained the knowledge of how special the Sabbath is to God and to those who love Him that my love compelled me to keep it.''''



So if you are right, and the Sabbath is a specific one of the Ten Commandments in that it requires knowledge , why did the council of Jerusalem not give that knowledge in Acts 15 and ask Gentile converts to observe a specific Saturday Sabbath??
 
michael56 said:
As you said yesterday, specific knowledge was needed in order to observe a Saturday Sabbath, why did the church not give that ''knowledge at the council of Jerusalem and state a Saturday Sabbath must be observed by Gentile converts?

The same reason they did not tell them not to steal. They were converted Gentiles meaning they had already received instruction these are additional to things that were already taught.

As to the laws they did ask Gentiles to follow, it is widely believed three of those were given simply to appease Jewish legalists who had become Christians. Don't forget, some of these people wanted Gentiles to be required to obey the whole law and be circumcised.
I am glsad you brought this point up. It proves Gentiles were not asked to observe a Saturday Sabbath. But new denominations spring up, led often by the flesh(or misguided motives) They like to believe they have the truth and others need to be where they are. I was brought up with it, in a different church to your own Explain to me how you came to that conclusion? I see no proof that they were not asked to keep the Sabbath. If shear lack of mention is your proof then you have taken a leap in logic. many things are not mentioned in these passages. Please explain
Click to expand...

Response in blue.
 
michael56 said:
You wrote:

'''I disagree on that point, I don't believe God writes knowledge on our hearts, but puts his love in our hearts.

The word gives us Knowledge and it is His love in us that causes us to obey that word.

I had the law written on my heart also, but not that Sabbath. that was because love automatically does not steal from others. why? cause we love them.

For example, when I fell in love with my wife, I did not need a law in order to treat her nice, I did not need some special knowledge to respect her. Love made those things automatic. But doing something special on her birthday required more than just love, I needed the knowledge of what day was her birthday.

Or if there was something she really liked. My love for her could not fulfill it until I had the knowledge of that thing she liked then my love for her compelled me to get that thing.

So it is with the Sabbath, God does not write keep the Sabbath on our hearts. but he put His love in my heart, it was not until through the word that I gained the knowledge of how special the Sabbath is to God and to those who love Him that my love compelled me to keep it.''''



So if you are right, and the Sabbath is a specific one of the Ten Commandments in that it requires knowledge , why did the council of Jerusalem not give that knowledge in Acts 15 and ask Gentile converts to observe a specific Saturday Sabbath??
Click to expand...

same leap in logic, please explain how you come to this point using Acts 15.
 
gotime said:
same leap in logic, please explain how you come to this point using Acts 15.
Click to expand...

I know you have to respond any which way you can to avoid admitting your error. But your error has been plainly shown. I am grateful you wrote what you did yesterday, and brought to mention Acts 15 today
 
michael56 said:
You are getting in a tangle here. The commandment not to steal is a law placed on the heart and written on the mind.
Click to expand...

not at all. the tangle is only a perception on your part. the lack of mention of the Sabbath proves nothing for they are converts which means they have already been instructed to some degree.
 
michael56 said:
You are getting in a tangle here. The commandment not to steal is a law placed on the heart and written on the mind.
Click to expand...

But what is stealing? A man can rob a train. But an educated man can steal the whole train company and do it legally so who is the thief?
 
gotime said:
same leap in logic, please explain how you come to this point using Acts 15.
Click to expand...

You specifically stated yesterday the law was on your heart but the Sabbath was not. That is setting aside one of the Ten Commandments as not instinctively known to you. Therefore, if you were right, the Jerusalem church would have had to stipulate Saturday Sabbath must be observed for you accept the other nine commandments are written on the mind and placed on the heart of the believer
That incidentally is obviously why the church did not need to mention more laws than they did to be followed
 
gotime said:
not at all. the tangle is only a perception on your part. the lack of mention of the Sabbath proves nothing for they are converts which means they have already been instructed to some degree.
Click to expand...

That is a ridiculous answer based on your comments of yesterday. I am copying them all to my computer. You have already been forced to change your opinions on the law being placed on the heart and written on the mind of the believer due to the muddle you get in with this(I can produce the posts if necessary) You are just getting into more of a mess all the time, but you will write anything in order to try a d cling to your misguided beliefs
 
michael56 said:
You specifically stated yesterday the law was on your heart but the Sabbath was not. That is setting aside one of the Ten Commandments as not instinctively known to you. Therefore, if you were right, the Jerusalem church would have had to stipulate Saturday Sabbath must be observed for you accept the other nine commandments are written on the mind and placed on the heart of the believer
That incidentally is obviously why the church did not need to mention more laws than they did to be followed
Click to expand...

Sorry but your logic here does not work and I am surprised you don't see it. Are you suggesting that the things recorded in Acts 15 are the only expectations ever put on the Gentiles?

your argument here holds no water, it would be thrown out in a second in a court of law. its simply conjecture.
 
michael56 said:
You specifically stated yesterday the law was on your heart but the Sabbath was not. That is setting aside one of the Ten Commandments as not instinctively known to you. Therefore, if you were right, the Jerusalem church would have had to stipulate Saturday Sabbath must be observed for you accept the other nine commandments are written on the mind and placed on the heart of the believer
That incidentally is obviously why the church did not need to mention more laws than they did to be followed
Click to expand...

The ten commandments repeated in the NT did not include keeping the Sabbath. Why? because Jesus is the Sabbath and He said as often as you keep it do so in remembrance of Me. No specific date given.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back