Often misunderstood part of the Bible (1 John 1:8-19)

[Jason0047]

Saul is problematic because the Holy Spirit was given to accomplish a purpose and withdrawn in the Old Testament. Men were not permanently indwelt by the Holy Sprit as believers are under the New Covenant (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30).

Not true.

Quick Review:
Circumcision of the Heart in the Old Testament.
(Which is obviously a spiritual renewal of one's heart):

Deuteronomy 10:16

"Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked."

​

Deuteronomy 30:6

"And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live."

​

Jeremiah 4:4

"Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings."

​

Ezekiel 44:9

"Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel."

​

Leviticus 26:41

"And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:."

​

Jeremiah 9:26

"Egypt, and Judah, and Edom, and the children of Ammon, and Moab, and all that are in the utmost corners, that dwell in the wilderness: for all these nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in the heart."

​

Having A New Heart in the Old Testament:

Ezekiel 11:19

"And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh"

​

Ezekiel 18:31

"Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"

​

Ezekiel 36:26

"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."

​

Circumcision of the Heart in the New Testament:

Acts 7:51

"Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."

​

Spiritual Circumcision in the New Testament:

Philippians 3:3

"For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh."

​

Romans 2:28-29

28 "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

​

Colossians 2:11

"In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ"​

The wanderer is either a professing Christian, whose faith is not genuine, or a sinning Christian, who needs to be restored. For the former, the death spoken of in vs. 20 is the "second death" (Revelation 21:8); for the latter, it is "physical death" (1 Corinthians 11:29-32; 1 Corinthians 5:5; 1 John 5:16).

No, James is not a guessing game. It is ver clear in what it says. Wander from the Truth is to wander away from saving faith. For Jesus is the way, the Truth, and the life. For the believer who helped this backslidden brother or sister had helped to cover their sins (i.e. They helped them to confess or repent of their sins so as to restore fellowship). They also helped to save their soul from death. This is the Second Death.

We don't lose our salvation every time we mess up and our wives don't divorce us every time we mess up.

Sinning is a form of cheating on God because one is attempting to be their own God when they sin. For sin is all about oneself and their own desires. It's a form of cheating on God. So by this analogy you are using, if a husband cheats on his wife, how does he have any hope to be forgiven by her if he doesn't say he is sorry that he cheated on her and or if he continues to be unfaithful?

For sin is not like we stepped on God's toe or something. Sin is very serious and it put Jesus Christ on the cross.

We confess our sin in a continued relationship and walk with the Lord. It's not a sin/lose salvation; confess/regain salvation continued merry go round.

Not in the sense of sin/lose salvation; confess/regain salvation continued merry go round. 1 John 1:9 is not a formula to regain our salvation every time we commit a sin in light of 1 John 1:8,10. If we forget a sin, we are toast! If we confess our sins in CONTRAST to if we say we have no sin or have not sinned, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

I am not suggesting that we instantly lose the Spirit when we sin. For how else can we grieve the Spirit if that was not the case? But like with Saul, who was once in favor with God, had lost the Spirit.

 

[mailmandan]

God will only withdraw His Spirit if He knows they will just refuse in confessing of their sin.

Who refuses to confess their sins in 1 John 1:8-10? Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Does that equal withdraw His Spirit? 1 John 3:9 - no one who is born of God practices sin.. Does that equal refuses to confess their sin?

God not choosing to abide with someone who does evil and or who does not care to say they are sorry for their sin is not wrong on God's part. God is Holy and He cannot justify someone who wants to hold onto their sin.

Who holds onto their sin? (1 John 3:7-10).

Because it is true. Most who teach OSAS do not teach holiness as the requirement (Of which you just admitted here).

So faith in Jesus Christ is insufficient to receive eternal life? We must also reach sinless perfection in our lifetime to receive eternal life as well? Are you sinless and perfect, without fault or defect, 100% of the time?

You are saying that no believer is to be perfect which again runs contrary to what Jesus said when he told us to be perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect.

Christ sets up the high ideal of perfect love (vs. 43-47). We see this in 1 John 4:18. Not that we can fully attain sinless perfection in this life but we are to strive for it. This is God's standard which He cannot compromise. Once again, the word comes from telo, end, goal, limit. Here it is the goal set before us, the absolute standard of our Heavenly Father. The word is used also for relative perfection as of adults compared with children. Mature, complete.

For by saying you don't believe in sinless perfectionism is to say that you don't believe Jesus when He said to be perfect. Now, this does not mean, we will be perfect overnight. But by Jesus Christ, He will perfect us in time as we continue to walk with Him. For how can two walk together unless they are in agreement? How can one do evil and be in agreement with a Holy and righteous God?

So you understand Jesus to be telling us that we are to be perfect in the sense of being sinless, without fault or defect, flawless 100% of the time or else perish? So this won't happen overnight? How long will it take? How much time did the thief on the cross have? In Philippians 3:12, Paul said - Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. Paul said he is not already perfected, so if Paul would have died that moment he would be in hell? Are we saved through faith in Christ or through sinless perfection?

Sin is sin. Whether an individual murdered just 1 person or 1,000 people. God will be able to forgive them both equally the same; And if such sins were committted, then they need to both admitted before God (Regardless).

Sin is sin and sin is forgivable, I understand that, but murdering 1,000 people is worse than murdering 1 person.

So the scenario you describe does not really exist.

What scenario? Forget a sin and your toast?

God will convict a believer to confess of their sin.

Of course.

If a believer keeps persisting to hold onto their sin and ignore the Spirit convicting them to repent (When they know they should), then they are in the wrong and God can withdraw from them.

Is that what we read in 1 John 3:9 and Ephesians 1:14?

No. My personal life is between me and God;

I'm not asking you to actually write out that list for me, but was wondering if you think you could list each and every sin that you have ever committed without forgetting one.

Besides, my past sins are forgiven. They have been erased by the blood of the Lamb because I went to Jesus.

Acts 13:39 - By Him all that believe are justified from all things.. Believe is not enough? The object of our belief is not enough? Confess each specific sin that you commit as you commit them (without forgetting one) and live a sinless perfect life in addition?

So we just do a generalized prayer of forgiveness on occasion? Is that it?

Confession is an ongoing acknowledgment of sin, and ongoing walk in our relationship with the Lord.

No, I believe that is what you and others here have done. They have made 1 John 1:9 like some big hard to understand mess. I just read it and believe it. It says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. So if I confess, he will forgive. It's not complicated.

If we confess our sins IN CONTRAST TO if we say we have no sin or we have not sinned. Simple. Not a big hard to understand mess.

No, Verse 8 and 10 does not change verse 9.

They don't change verse 9 but they are in contrast to verse 9.

Jesus says be ye perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect. Jesus is telling us to work at attaining that. You say it is a goal but you really don't believe that because you don't believe a person in Christ will reach sinless perfectionism. But yet Jesus says we are to be perfect. Who am I going to believe? You or Jesus?

Jesus wants us to strive to be perfect. That is the goal that we should be striving for, but who is sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, 100% of the time? YOU? So you believe that Jesus is demanding that we become perfect in the sense of being sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, 100% of the time or else? Jesus isn't going to compromise His high standard and we are to strive for that standard, but if you really believe that you are sinless, without fault or defect, flawless 100% of the time, then you are deceived.

Again, verse 23 is in context to verse 11 that is not talking about believers who walk in the Light as He is in the Light. It is referencing how all of humanity at one time or another had sinned.

ALL of us. Even those who believe they are sinless, without fault or defect, flawless.

Not me. Jesus Christ. Yes, have believers sinned. Sure. The Bible records that fact many times. But what you will not find is God approving of believers in living in an unrepentant sinful lifestyle, though. What you will find is God calling His people to be Holy as He is Holy.

Be Holy, absolutely, but this does not mean that we are not sinless, without fault or defect, flawless 100% of the time.

Just because a person is a believer in Jesus Christ does not mean anything.

It doesn't mean anything if their belief is mere "mental assent" belief in Jesus. Even the devils believe that there is one God.

One has to actually repent and receive Jesus Christ and be transformed spirtually (Whereby good fruit will be evident in their life). They need to be a new creature in Christ. This is by the operation of God working in a person when they truly have humbled themselves before God and desired to be saved for real (With a Godly sorrow and not a worldly sorrow).

Amen! Saving belief in Christ is not without repentance.

 

[Galahad]

Perfect example ...

Matthew 16, NASB
15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17 And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
-------
21 From that time Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised up on the third day.
22 Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, "God forbid it, Lord! This shall never * happen to You."
23 But He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God's interests, but man's."
​

Peter was "in the Light" -- as implied by Jesus' own words, "flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father ... " Then just a few minutes later, he is compared to Satan attempting to thwart the Father's will by withholding Jesus from the cross. Definitely "in the dark" in that case.

We do the same thing, living a mostly holy life in Christ but stumbling onto the old man, who is dead, but not in the sense of how we view physical death. Death is a condition. It is a state of being. It is a realm. Consequently, we should never think of death as non-existence. It is existence, but it is existence apart from God.

It is conscious existence, able to function and move. Those who are dead can, and do, will and act, The spiritually dead -- the lost among us -- function. They operate. They perform. But they do it all in a realm other than that of Light. They do it in the realm of darkness. It they whom Jesus speaks of in His conversation with Nicodemus in John 3.

I appreciate your response. My concern with this passage as an example of walking in light and darkness, is the attitude. Peter's attitude was actually one that was required to be in the light. He was not "purposely" trying to rebel against the Lord or the Father. Okay. I know. I do. I know the reply to that. I anticipate it, but won't hash it out now.

Peter's error was doctrinal. It was one of ignorance. Not one of rebellion (Again, I anticipate someone will probably address this. No problem.) He had confessed to Jesus, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." Wh

If Peter believes that, then it is reasonable to expect Peter to work with and cooperate with Jesus. But Peter doesn't. In fact, and as you know, Peter actually works against Jesus, the Christ, the Son of the Living God!

Okay. So Peter was in light "You are Christ." Then darkness at his attempt to stop Jesus in fulfilling will of God.
But afterwards, 8 days later, Peter at Mt. of Transfiguration. Then cuts off servant's ear in Garden of Gethsemane (Peter still did not understand the mission of the Christ. Satan again.) Then Peter denies Jesus 3 times. Again, Jesus turns and looks, and Peter went out and wept bitterly. But Peter's attitude is not so much rebellion as it is one of ignorance. And after Jesus raised, "Peter do you love me?" "You know I do." "Feed my sheep." Then at Pentecost, Peter preaches gospel. Sanhedrin threatens him with death. Oh, now a different Peter. He understands. He doesn't draw his sword to fight; instead, he keeps on preaching Jesus.

In all that, I am not sure if Matthew 16 parallels 1 John 1. We know Peter's knowledge of the truth at those times was limited, "For you are not able to bear them." When he understood the mission, the truth concerning the Christ, the Son of the Living God, Peter conforms to it.

("Jesus TURNED and said TO PETER" suggests, Jesus turned to Peter, square at Peter, faced Peter and looked right at Peter's face.)

What about the instance in Galatians 2? Paul confronting Peter to the face about hypocrisy? Would like to hear your thoughts on that.

Thank you.

 

[mailmandan]

Not true.

So in the Old Testament, prior to Jesus being glorified and the New Covenant being established (John 7:38-39) you are saying that men were sealed in the body of Christ with the Holy Spirit?

No, James is not a guessing game. It is ver clear in what it says. Wander from the Truth is to wander away from saving faith.

Did James say wander from saving faith and lose salvation? NO. "Among" the brethren doesn't necessarily mean this "sinner" was truly born again. Death can also mean physical death, so your argument is so clear after all. Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.

For Jesus is the way, the Truth, and the life. For the believer who helped this backslidden brother or sister had helped to cover their sins (i.e. They helped them to confess or repent of their sins so as to restore fellowship). They also helped to save their soul from death. This is the Second Death.

If it's the second death, then this wanderer/sinner is not a genuine Christian. The wanderer is either a professing Christian, whose faith is not genuine, or a sinning Christian, who needs to be restored. For the former, the death spoken of in vs. 20 is the "second death" (Revelation 21:8); for the latter, it is "physical death" (1 Corinthians 11:29-32; 1 Corinthians 5:5; 1 John 5:16).

Sinning is a form of cheating on God because one is attempting to be their own God when they sin. For sin is all about oneself and their own desires. It's a form of cheating on God. So by this analogy you are using, if a husband cheats on his wife, how does he have any hope to be forgiven by her if he doesn't say he is sorry that he cheated on her and or if he continues to be unfaithful?

Yet we all sin. None of us are sinless and perfect. I wasn't talking about the husband cheating on the wife (repeated adultery). I was previously talking about arguing with his wife. Cheating would take some serious apologizing for sure.

For sin is not like we stepped on God's toe or something. Sin is very serious and it put Jesus Christ on the cross.

Yet, we live in this corrupted flesh which has a sinful nature. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. We are not sinless, without fault or defect, flawless 100% of the time, the flesh lusts against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh, but we can walk in the Spirit (Galatians 5:16-17).

I am not suggesting that we instantly lose the Spirit when we sin.

That's a start.

For how else can we grieve the Spirit if that was not the case? But like with Saul, who was once in favor with God, had lost the Spirit.

Saul was appointed as king and the Spirit came upon men in the OT, but Saul was not sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise (Ephesians 1:13-14) under the New Covenant in the Old Testament.

 

[mailmandan]

No, James is not a guessing game. It is ver clear in what it says.

Did James say wander from saving faith and lose salvation? NO.

"Among" the brethren doesn't necessarily mean this "sinner" was truly born again and death can also mean physical death, so your argument is NOT so clear after all. If a really "saved" person really loses their salvation and ends up perishing in hell, then these verses below are meaningless.

Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 - Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jude 1:1 - Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:

John 10:27 - My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. Eternal life is not temporary life. Salvation is not probation.

John 6:37 - All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

John 6:39-40, "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day." 40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 18:9 that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, "Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none."

Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

1 Corinthians 1:8 - He will confirm/keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Philippians 1:6 - being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 1:4 - to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

2 Corinthians 1:21 - Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22 set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

2 Corinthians 5:5 - Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Hebrews 7:25 - Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because He always lives to intercede for them.

As for those who allegedly were saved and lost their salvation - John 6:64 - But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him (even though these people may looked like the real deal to others).

1 John 2:19 - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for IF they had been of us, they WOULD HAVE continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You are missing the point. According to OSAS proponents (Not all of them but many of them), they will say that you don't have to cry out to God to have mercy on their lives. All you need is a "belief" on Jesus and that is it. How you love God and love others plays no factor into the mix of one's right standing with God. The fruits of righteousness do not need to bear fruit in a believer's life according to many (Not all) OSAS proponents. Granted, I do not believe in "Works Salvationism." I believe God does the work in the believer once they have been truly saved and they are abiding in God (Who is the source of their salvation). The majority who voted in my poll here at CC, had expressed their belief that you can be out of fellowship with God and still be saved.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/105849-can-you-out-fellowship-god-still-saved.html

This implies a doctrine of immorality. That God will save a person and take them home to Heaven even when they are being evil up until the point of their deaths. For many here believe that a believer can commit sin, then die, and still be saved. They believe physical death (and not spiritual death) is the result of committing a sin (Like with Ananias and Sapphira). But if God wanted to save Ananais and Sapphira and their hearts were right with God, then why didn't the Lord allow them time to repent? What kind of message does that send when He kills a person for doing evil? Do you really expect me to believe they were saved? I mean, if you seen someone struck down by some super natural means, are you going to think Judgment or salvation? Was their ever a point in the Bible where God did this before? I don't so.

Anyways, I brought up Luke 18:9-14 because what it clearly illustrates is two pictures of a type of believer we can see today.

Picture #1 = Believer who cries out to God to have mercy on him (Which lines up with confessing sin, 1 John 1:9, and the Lord's prayer).

Piciture #2 - False Believer who thinks they are God's righteous child and does not love another.

Picture #1 describes the believer who humbles themselves down before God to have mercy on them and their sins. Their cry out to God is not an excuse for them to continue in sin, but it is a cry to God so as to help them to stop so they can walk in His good ways. This is the true believer today who has a proper understanding on 1 John 1:9. They believe confessing and admitting before God that they need His grace and forgiveness.

Picture #2 describes the false believer who does not need to go to God to be forgiven. He is God's righteous child and he is saved no matter what. But the Pharisee's fruit within his life shows otherwise because he does not love another. He is proud and beats his chest and thinks he is better than the Tax Collector and thanks God for saying he is glad he is not like that Tax Collector.

So we can see that if you were to compare both pictures side by side and try to line them up next to the OSAS proponent who believes they can sin and still be saved versus the believer who believes they have to cry out to God for forgiveness, then we can easily conclude that the OSAS sin and still saved belief is false.

no we can't

Because one who does not have faith would never be number 2. A person who has faith will not just believe, they will cry out to God and beg for his forgiveness. And God will save them (they will go home JUSTIFIED)

As james said, faith without works is dead. Mere belief is not enough, Just because someone claims to have faith. does not mean they ever did have faith.

Your like Ken. You abhore licentiousness (as God does, I do, and every true OSAS proponent does) however, you went a 180 degrees on it, and went to legalism. And went from one pride based gospel to another.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Edit:

Try to edit it out, beating of the chest was an expression by the Tax Collector. I caught that after I wrote it. The point I was getting at is that there are two kinds of beating of one's chest, just as their are two kinds of sorrows. There is a Godly sorrow and there is a worldly sorrow. Just as their is a Godly way to beat one's chest and their is a prideful or worldly way in doing so.

ah, so who is the proud beating there chest? The ones who continue to work for it (taking self) or those who completely fall on their face, because they KNOW ANd UNDERSTANd (repent) their plight against a righteous God?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So when David cried out to God to have mercy on him (because of his sin), he was in the wrong? Is everyone who confesses their sin to God in the wrong? The Tax Collector cried out to God to have mercy on him. Was he in the wrong? It sure sounded like he had certain sins in his mind. For if he didn't have sin in his mind, then why was he crying out to God? Do you see how silly your argument is. You believe he was just generally admitting he was a sinner. Nobody does that. If a believer sins, they are going to be convicted by the Spirit to repent of that sin. Sometimes a believer will mention the sin and other times they will think of the sin while they use words that simply express a general cry for forgiveness. It doesn't make any sense to cry out to God to have mercy on them in being a sinner in general if there is no sin to redeem. What you believe doesn't make any sense. If my future sin is forgiven (According to OSAS), then there is no need to cry out to God EVER.

1. The tax collector did not have certain sins in mind, He had the law in mind (and his failure to live up to it)
2. OSAS does not teach one does not need to cry out to God. it teaches if you have not cried out to God your not saved
3. David understood, Sacrifice and burnt offering (works) God did not desire. So when are you going to believe as David did, and stop trying to excuse your sin?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

A true believer will be characterized as walking uprightly in the Lord. If they stumble, they get back up and they don't stay down in the mud. So you believe the better option is to stay down in the mud and just admit you are a sinner instead of getting clean thru Jesus (By confessing your sin) and striving to walk in His good ways? If that is what you are saying, then you have things backwards.

admitting your a sinner does not take you down in the mud, what a foolish statement. Admitting your a sinner, keeps your mind toward God. Keeps you seeking his grace, And keeps you from being in the mud, and being totally blind that your even in the mud (thinking your dressed in a nice sunday suit, with no dirt on it) thereby decieving yourself.

Your problem is, You must deny alot of sin to be were you are. The law states even the smallest of all sins is enough to condemn us by the law. You deny this. You must deny this, or you would be like the rest of us, And admit your a sinner. Instead of puffing yourself up and sayingn you mess up every now and then.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Conditional Life is dependant upon abiding in the One who is Life itself. For you cannot be out of fellowship with Christ (Because of sin) and still be saved. For he that has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son, does not have life (1 John 5:12). This promotes holiness and right living. Eternal Security is the polar oppsite of this teaching and it does not promote holiness and right living. Yes, I am aware of a version of OSAS that teaches holiness. But this is a minority view within the OSAS camp.

Scripture does not teach conditional life

It teaches eternal life

And it teaches, eternal life is a GIFT OF GOD.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Uh, no. Any time a believer sins in the past (Since being a believer) they will have in effect cried out to God to have mercy on them. This is what many (Not all) OSAS proponents fail to do because they have a sin and still be saved mentality like the Pharisee. Also, Jesus telling us to be perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect would not make any sense if Romans 3 is saying that all believers will never be able to stop sinning (those types of sins that lead unto spiritual death: like murder, hate, lusting, lying, stealing, etc.). In other words, Romans 3:23 is not saying that no person can ever walk holy in God's ways. If that was the case, then how could God give praise to the men of God through out the Bible for living righteously? Romans 3:23 is saying that all people need a Savior so as to be cleansed of their old life of sin. They need to be born again spiritually. It is not saying one will continue to be a sinner. For if that was true then you would also have to conclude that nobody is seeking God still (Even though that is what Christians do). You will also have to conclude that God's people also do not have no understanding, as well (See Romans 3:11). So the context in view of all have sinned and have come short of the glory of God is simply saying alll of humanity has sinned and needs a Savior whereby they need to repent of their sins and allow the Lord to work His righteousness thru them.

a person who has security in Christ (OSAS) is not like a pharisee. for they admit their sins, and cry them out to God and the people around them for help, because they do not fear judgement, and come come boldly (without fear) to the throne of God (as an abba father who adopted us)

You my friend are a pharisee. your the one praising God how good you are, and how your not like the sinner.

and your blind to that fact.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Well, Romans 5:8 has to be read in context. God died for us while we were yet sinners to demonstrate his love to us, but he did not do so that we can continue in sin. How so? Romans 6:1 says,

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein"

​

Also, when you read 1 John 3;9, that says he that is born of God does not sin. This is not talking about how when you sin; You sin in the flesh but yet you don't in the spirit (Because Jesus' sacrifice has cleansed you of all sin). The context in 1 John 3 refutes that type of false belief (If that is what you believe). For 1 John 3:10 says,

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."

You just taught osas.

how? Whoever does not do righteousness is not of God.

a child of God does righteous works. not perfect works.

a person who sins, as John said, has never seen God or known God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I don't. Believers will not ignore sin and they will immediately deal with it by confessing their sin and forsaking it with the Lord's help and sometimes with the help of the body of Christ.

Thats excusing it I can sin all I want as long as I do that. And there will be no repercussions.

As for certain OSAS proponents not justifying their sin openly: Well, who wants to look like the bad guy to other people? The only good comes from God. I am nothing. Christ is everything. He is the One who is all good and who cleanses me and works in my life of any good that I do.

hmm, Sounds like what Paul said. who said the same thing.

Thats not justifying sin, thats giving credit to God. I guess thats a bad thing.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Well, I don't believe in earning salvation or "Works Salvationism." I have argued with "Works Salvationists" before and I do not agree with them. So that is not what I believe.

Yeah you do. You teach we are not secure in Christ, We must only be secure in self and what we do or do not do. Your no different than the legalists you claim you argue with, That would be a funny fight,

As for a believer praising God that he is not like those who struggle with sin: Well, I don't do that. I am merely against sin like God is against sin. For do you think God is not against sin? Does not the Scriptures say, be ye holy as God is holy? Did not Jesus say be ye perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect? But again, the Tax Collector and the Pharisee disproves the sin and still be saved OSAS teaching, though. Now, if you believe in the OSAS version (i.e. OSAS Lite) that teaches one has to be holy in order to be right with God, then you will have no trouble from me. But I don't think you believe that, my friend.

If I HAVE to be holy to be right with God

1. I must fulfill the law (Gods guideline for holiness) perfectly
2. I must consider myself equal with God as far as perfection (Christ was no better than I am)
3. I must lie to myself, that I am breaking the law, or when I do sin, my sin does not stink so bad. (aka pharisee)


as for the tax collector. He went home justified (saved forever)

the pharisee was like you, justifying sin, he did not commit bad sins, and if he did, he just repented (sacrifice) so his sins were ok as long as he did that.

You can have your phariseeism,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

God's people are not always perfect (But they are being perfected). However, true believers are not like the world in the fact they sin all the time like them habitually (As a way of life). There is a clear distinct difference between them. Paul mentions this several times. In Ephesians 2 and in Colossians 3. Paul essentially said we used to be that way, but we are not that way anymore. For they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts (Galatians 5:24).

You just taught osas again, Thank you.

Your right, Gods people are not like the world. they can not live in sin. Because God changed them.

so why are you against it? And claim a person born of God can fall in sin and out of salvation? You contradict yourself. and the word of God you just posted.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes, Eternal Security is also known as Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) or Free Grace. Calvinists have their own version of Eternal Security and they call it the "Perseverance of the Saints" (or POTS).

I believe in the Biblical View of "Conditional Salvation" that teaches that a true believer who is saved will naturally bring forth a life full of holiness and fruitful works. Now, do not misunderstand me, works are not done to be saved, but they are merely the evidence that you have been saved when one repents and accepts Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. If a believer sins, they need to immediately confess that sin and forsake it and continue to walk uprightly with their Lord. If a believer continues to abide in unrepentant sin that leads unto death (lying cheating murder etc.) then they are not saved.

So seeing I hold to the Biblical View of "Conditional Salvation", I am naturally against all forms of OSAS. However, that said, I believe that only those who hold to "Conditional Salvation" and "OSAS Lite" are true Christians (or my brothers). I believe all other forms of OSAS are teachings from the pits of Hell. Anyways, there are three major types of OSAS.

IE, as he just admited, His salvation is conditioned on his works. ie, a works based salvation, which he denys he teaches. There you have it, in his own words.

OSAS Type #1:
Classic OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) which says you can practice unrepentant sin that leads unto death (Such as lying, murder, hate, fornication, etc.) and yet you can somehow still be saved.

Also called licentiousness. Which was condemned by Paul James, Peter and Jude. Jude went as far as to say their condemnation was pre-ordained.

These people were never saved, so had no salvation to lose.

OSAS Type #2:
Mid Range OSAS says that you cannot practice sin otherwise you do not know God. However, abiding in an occasional or small unrepentant sin and then dying in that sin will not necessarily send you to Hell.

Not even a true meaning, A true child of God has repented. In order to repent, you must admit sin is sin, so there is no such things as unrepentant sin, for a true child of God knows sin is sin is sin.
Sounds more like a legalist, As long as I confess my major sins, I can live in small sins, and I am ok.

OSAS Type #3:

OSAS Lite teaches that you if you practice or continually abide in unrepentant sin then you were never saved to begin with. Meaning that a true believer is characterized by them living righteously. So falling away from the faith would be impossible (Despite the many verses that talk about such a thing).

Ah, We have the true gospel of Christ. Which is exactly what the words teaches, this is called ETERNAL life (I Know you teach conditional life) As we are told in scripture. Even when we are faithless, he is faithful, he can not deny himself.

either way, Thanks for proving you teach conditional salvation. WHich is a works based Gospel based on what you do or do not do. and not based on What God did

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Uh, tearing others down? Is that not what you just did in your previous post to me?

Also, I am not promoting Works Salvationism or in Earning Salvation. We are saved by God's grace when we repent and accept Jesus Christ as our Savior; And once we accept Christ, we walk with Him (Which results in good fruit and not bad fruit). For Salvation is a relationship (1 John 5:12). It is not in what you do (on your own merits alone). But God's grace is not a license for a believer to get away with sin, though either (See Romans 6:1).

You teach conditional salvation. Conditional salvation = works salvation.

Your reward (salvation) is CONDITIONED on the works you do.

You just admited it a few posts ago. do not try to back out of it now.

You have no hope. because your hope is based on you (I feel sorry for you)

My hope is based on God, and his promise, As John said, And God can not lie..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes.

Because God knows if a person loves their sin more than they do Him. People who will be with the Lord love the Lord. People who are destroyed are the wicked because they love their sin (And they do not love God). See the "Condemnation" mentioned in John 3:19-21.

then no one will make it to heaven, For it is impossible to repent of all sin before you die.

How do you know that person did not love God? Maybe he never drank before in his life. and did not know his limit, and did not think he was too drunk to drive, because he never experienced it before.

So God is going to cast him to hell because he made a mistake.

Your evil dude, your pure evil!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

ok far to many posts to catch up on. and laughable posts at that.

 

[gb9]

makes me wonder if legalists want people to go to hell. I go to church and hear a young person say how they used to get drunk sleep around, lie, cheat, etc... but they came to church, meet Jesus for the first time, or understood it for the first time. most of them say " I have not got it all figured out but I am learning and trying everyday". then I come on here and see people saying" you are not doing this that this that right, nit-picking stuff most of the time, makes me sick to think how the babes in Christ would respond if they were told that.