Often misunderstood part of the Bible (1 John 1:8-19)

[dcontroversal]

Whatever Kenneth...if you want to believe and follow men who (wrote) things or made (quotes) that did not make the bible fill free.......God inspired the men whose quotes made the bible...anything other than that could be corrupted, added, written and or given by ANYONE......so.....I will stick with the inspired word.

HAHAH my spell check was obviously not working HHAHAHAHHA that would be FEEL ahaha funny!

 

[Utah]

Actually, rejecting the complete, sufficient sacrifice of Christ and interjecting yourself and your abilities would qualify as pure evil, calls Jesus a liar and is a doctrine with no power to save and is double cursed to hell......good luck with your works Jason and rejection of the work of Jesus which satisfied the Heavenly Father.......tragic.......!

Amen. It hurts my heart to see it post after post after post after post . . .

 

[dcontroversal]

Amen. It hurts my heart to see it post after post after post after post . . .

Yeah I know...post after post after heretical post that states that the work, mediation and sacrifice of Christ was not sufficient and or enough.........

 

[MarcR]

I do believe the bible is the absolute standard as well.
But if the quotes that come directly by the apostles mentioned in name, or a direct understudy of theirs then they can not be passed off as false teaching just because we may feel it contradicts what we have been taught by those of now days.

Barnabas was an apostle and he is mentioned in the bible, and is never referred as a false teacher.
He is shown to work side by side with Paul, Mark, and John, so if one considers his writings false then those who he taught with were false teachers as well. We know that Paul, Mark, and John were not, and Barnabas was with them in the same teaching.

Polycarp another one who had many quotes and books that show opposite of the once saved always saved doctrine, was a direct understudy of the Apostle John. So if one is saying his writings are false, then they are saying John was a false teacher, because Polycarp was taught by John.......

so if one considers his writings false then those who he taught with were false teachers as well. We know that Paul, Mark, and John were not, and Barnabas was with them in the same teaching.



You seem to be saying that by studying under Paul, Mark, and John; Barnabus became incapable of misunderstanding or disagreeing with them.

This is clearly not true since all of the 11 [excluding Judas, who was not a true disciple] frequently misunderstood the teachings of Jesus as often recorded in the Gospels. If what you are saying were true; then nobody would ever fail a test in college.

 

[dcontroversal]

so if one considers his writings false then those who he taught with were false teachers as well. We know that Paul, Mark, and John were not, and Barnabas was with them in the same teaching.



You seem to be saying that by studying under Paul, Mark, and John; Barnabus became incapable of misunderstanding or disagreeing with them.

This is clearly not true since all of the 11 [excluding Judas, who was not a true disciple] frequently misunderstood the teachings of Jesus as often recorded in the Gospels. If what you are saying were true; then nobody would ever fail a test in college.

Circular reasoning seems to be the norm with those who reject the truth for sure......!

 

[Jason0047]

You owe the majority of board members an abject, cowering apology for that statement. You have declared us evil. No one has made claim you are "evil" for your belief. I'm reporting your post to the administrators.

I did not name anybody specifically. My statement was ambiguous. I did not say how everyone here is evil. You are putting words in my mouth. I just believe OSAS to be evil and that most (NOT ALL) do have bad fruit in the way that they treat me. Now, I could complain about how DC and others attack me here to the Administrators. But would that do anybody good? Where did I start out attacking people specifically? Where did I attack you or anyone else here personally?

 

[tourist]

Once saved, always saved.

Pretty simple.

This has been my understanding also.

 

[Jeff_56]

I do believe the bible is the absolute standard as well.
But if the quotes that come directly by the apostles mentioned in name, or a direct understudy of theirs then they can not be passed off as false teaching just because we may feel it contradicts what we have been taught by those of now days.

Barnabas was an apostle and he is mentioned in the bible, and is never referred as a false teacher.
He is shown to work side by side with Paul, Mark, and John, so if one considers his writings false then those who he taught with were false teachers as well. We know that Paul, Mark, and John were not, and Barnabas was with them in the same teaching.

Polycarp another one who had many quotes and books that show opposite of the once saved always saved doctrine, was a direct understudy of the Apostle John. So if one is saying his writings are false, then they are saying John was a false teacher, because Polycarp was taught by John.......

i've only read a little of poly, and it is good, and if what i read was right about him
he is definitely AGAINST OSAS(as is TORAH and yahweh).

i would never never never call poly nor clement an ecf, as it looks like they both were true and not false,
and
the false came shortly after them in the ecf that the heresy uses to pretend it is okay....

all subject to testing and verification in TORAH and yahweh's spirit of truth.

little from quiksearch>> on the web >>
"It is impossible in the context of these verses for chadash to mean "new." Isaiah 61:4 also uses chadash to refer to those in Mashiyach who: "...chadash (repair) the waste cities, the desolations of many generations." The word "chadash" is so instrumental to "replacement theology" that the James Strong's Concordance (a popular Christian resource), chose to give this term two reference numbers: renew #2318 and new #2319. Theologians have long used this term to steer "the church" away from Torah. As mentioned previously, Marcion, a post-apostolic church founder who was actually considered a heretic by the early Church, coined the terms "Old Testament" and "New Testament" suggesting, in effect, that the "new" replaced the "old." Polycarp referred to him as the "firstborn of the Devil," yet his false anti-Torah theology is still being honored by nearly every Christian on earth.

YHWH did not torture and kill His own son to establish the Renewed Covenant; it was man's religious "justice system" that put the perfection of Y'shua Mashiyach on the torture stake. If sin is condemned by means of the Commandment, how much more is it condemned by being responsible for putting to death YHWH's own likeness? Man's sin put Mashiyach on the torture stake; therefore, the Renewed Covenant upholds the Word of YHWH (Torah) which defines sin and love. "And walk in love; as the Mashiyach also has loved us and has given up himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to Elohim, for a sweet aroma." (Ephesians 5:2)
The term and definition of "New Testament" is anti-Mashiyach; it was coined by a Christo-Pagan named Marcion who viewed Y'shua as akin to one of the Greek gods of his own culture. Marcion taught that the G-d of the Jews was an evil god of wrath, judgment and terror, but that Je-Zeus was a kind and loving god. Marcion coined the terms "Old and New Testament" to demarcate YHWH and Y'shua as two separate Gods who were at war with each other; hence, the dualism in Christian churches that use the terms Old and New Testament to uphold replacement and dispensational theology. The consequences of the fatal anti-Torah and anti-Mashiyach deception is very far reaching; so much so, in fact, that permissiveness of Covenant breaking is commonplace throughout Christendom."

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

I did not name anybody specifically. My statement was ambiguous. I did not say how everyone here is evil. You are putting words in my mouth.

You put them there yourself. Live with the consequences, man. I don't think you're going to like them.

I just believe OSAS to be evil and that most (NOT ALL) do have bad fruit in the way that they treat me.

Do you not realize you bring a great deal of that upon yourself by your judgmental attitude, arrogance, and "holier-than-thou-because-I-'keep'-the-Law-thing" you got going on here? Newsflash: You're worse at keeping the Law than you realize.

That's not to excuse personal attacks on you. I know I've let my pique overwhelm m better judgment and taken potshots at you. For all those, I apologize, and ask your forgiveness. Nonetheless and right or wrong, attitude is met with attitude. Yours, brother, needs adjustment.

Where did I start out attacking people specifically? Where did I attack you or anyone else here personally?

Your pronouncement of the doctrine of eternal security as "evil" impugns everyone who holds to the doctrine, which regardless of your personal condemnation of it is biblical, it is God's truth, and your continued assault on it is beginning to resemble Don Quixote's constant tilting at windmills he thought were dragons. I have to say, however, your habit is not nearly so amusing.

I'm not the only one who has reported you. I'm quite sure you will know the outcome of those reports soon. If you feel the need to repent, please take the opportunity. If you don't feel the need, perhaps you should ask yourself, "Why not?"

 

[Angela53510]

Jason, you repeatedly state how you have fought what you call OSAS on other boards. You have fought here, too!

But you have not fought against the other members, but against GOD!!

I agree with VW, repent of this evil heresy. Do not think that your righteousness is going to save you! Trust in the finished work of Jesus on the cross.

"When Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” Then bowing His head, He gave up His spirit." John 19:30

I pray God will enlighten the eyes of your heart, and you will come to know the mercy of God, and his amazing grace.

"having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might 20 that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. 22 And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all." Eph. 1:18-23

 

[Jeff_56]

you so-called, or self-called osas perferts are not doing well here nor anywhere..... you are opposed to god by holding that doctrine as if true, and worse for propagating it and damaging other people there-by.

also your so-called attacks of others who have provided more than enough truth in scripture, God's WORD, (that eliminates the cause of osas, its premise, its origin and shows that its effects are fatal to true faith) simply proves your deficiency and the complete depravity of osas.

 

[Reborn]

you so-called, or self-called osas perferts are not doing well here nor anywhere..... you are opposed to god by holding that doctrine as if true, and worse for propagating it and damaging other people there-by.

also your so-called attacks of others who have provided more than enough truth in scripture, God's WORD, (that eliminates the cause of osas, its premise, its origin and shows that its effects are fatal to true faith) simply proves your deficiency and the complete depravity of osas.

Dear Jeff,

Your posts tend to scare me a little.

Sincerely,
Mikey

 

[Sophia]

The doctrine of "by Freewill we are saved, through Faith, which is of ourselves" is the heart issue of this discussion.

 

[dcontroversal]

Dear Jeff,

Your posts tend to scare me a little.

Sincerely,
Mikey

Yeah I read his post and thought I was watching the worst episode of Saturday Night Live meets Lawrence Welk....such a joke coming from (all that and a bag of chips)...the cheap kind at that!

 

[MarcR]

Heb 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
KJV


Setting aside [temporarily] the OSAS argument; the Scripture cited above clearly indicates that if a believer could loose his Salvation; there would be NO WAY TO GET IT BACK.

I do NOT believe that Salvation can be lost; but I am certain that lost Salvation (if that is possible) can NEVER be regained.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

First, I have been debating against OSAS for many years now; And it's the same old story. Many times I will not even get an explanation on many passages. When I do get an explanation, the context either gets ignored or twisted beyond it's plain straightforward meaning. Also, there is no love from most OSAS proponents I talk with, either. There is no debating the Scriptures in a loving and respectful way. I either receive an attack upon my character or I will receive baseless accusations that I believe in Works Salvationism, when that is the furthest thing from what I believe.

Thats quite fine. I have been debating legalists for years. Your all the same. Arrogant, Egotistical, Proud. Boasters, and Declaring you do not teach works. Yet every word out of your mouth is works, which proves you are blind to what you actually teach. Your all the same. Same arguments, Same attacks. Same demand for holiness, when you can't even live up to Gods standard.

Second, I have talked with OSAS proponents who believe they can sin and still be saved. Some OSAS proponents do say that a believer must be holy or they are not a true believer, but what is strange is that their beliefs are no different from those who think they can sin and be saved.

Yet Paul, James and Jude condemned this licenteous gospel. Jude going to the point of declaring they were condemned long ago. Which we continuously preach, but you prove your blindness by denying we even say this. Licentiousness is not new in the church, it was around in pauls day, yet you think everyone who preaches a security in Christ believes this way, which is far from the truth, and is just more proof of your blind, secret ambition to reject anyone who does not agree with you.

Just because someone says it CAN be true, does not make EVERYONE believe that to be so. Your an adult you should know this, But you prove how childish you are when it comes to spiritual knowledge, and reality of spiritual truths in what people preach and live out in their spiritual lives.

Third, even if you claim that you are for righteousness, if I go down the OSAS Check List of commonly held OSAS beliefs, we can easily see that such a doctrine leads to immorality and not holiness.

OSAS's Commonly Held Dark Beliefs:

#1. Future Sins are Forgiven.
#2. Sin only leads to Physical Death and Not Spiritual Death.
#3. You can be out of Fellowship with God and still be Saved.
#4. Not Confessing one Serious Sin before you die will not Send You to Hell.
#5. Once a Son Always a Son or You Cannot be Unborn.
#6. Sin Cannot break the seal of the Spirit.
#7. We are sinners and nobody can be perfect.

#1. Future Sins Forgiven.
When you tell someone their future sin is forgiven them and you forget to tell them about holiness, you essentially are telling them that they have a license to sin. For if there is no consequence, then people are not going to have any incentive to do what is right. For example: If a law was passed in your state that could allow you to go over the posted speed limit signs on the high way (at any speed you like), then what do you think a lot of people are going to do? More people are going to speed because they know there is no consequences of being pulled over and getting potentially fined. However, if there was a law that said you could pay up to 7,000 dollars for going 10 over the speed limit then more people would start to slow down. It is only natural because now the consequences are more severe. In other words, when you tell people their future sin is forgiven them, then they will not take sin as seriously and think they can get away with it.

You have it backwards, Your the one giving people a license to sin. Like the pharisees, You pick on the deemed huge sins, But reject and ignore the little sins you commit every day, thus excusing them, and giving yourself a license to do them. If you do do them, they are not bad, and in the case of the pharisee, You kill and animal. and walla, they magically dissapear. In your view. You cry a little. and say your sorry, And all is forgiven, You can sin all you want as long as you do that. Why bother having a desire to live a holy life when you can just do as you want, say a little pray, and you have a clean slate.

again, just further proof of your blindness

#2. Sin is only leads to Physical Death.
In this false belief one is actually rewarded faster in going to Heaven by doing that which is evil (Which is just sick).

I have been around for almost 50 years now. Never heard this said by anyone or any church, I think you just pulled this out of a hat because you have so little to support your false theories. Your 0 for 2. Your first one is a flat out false accusation and backwards, and your second point is made up.

#3. You Can be out of Fellowship with God and Still be Saved.
The Bible teaches that eternal life is an exclusive property of the Son. For Jesus alone has immortality (1 Timothy 6:16); And he that has the Son has life and he that does not have the Son does not have life. Suggesting that you can be out of fellowship with God implies that one can get away with sin and still be saved (Whatever amount of period of time that might be).

Again, As paul said, the body is dead due to sin, the spirit is alive because of Christ, Your again prove your lack of knowledge, How can a body be dead if their is no sin in it? And how can christ 9according to you) be present when they body is still dead in sin?

You also ignore the prodigal son. He never stopped being the son. He lost much blessing on earth, and this "chastening" caused him to return. For every true believer I have ever met (including myself) this has been the case.

I guess you were not punished much as a child? It must not have hurt alot. maybe your parents were weak in this area because maybe they did not love you much? Well God punishes much more severe than any parent.

1. Why does God chasten if sin causes us to lose salvation?
2. How can a person withstand the chastening of God. Which I will profess, is quite severe..

agaun proof of your lack of thinking skills

#4. Not Confessing One Serious Sin Before you Die will not send you to Hell.
There are actually OSAS proponents out there today who told another believer who was thinking about suicide that they would not go to Hell if they committed suicide. Granted, they said do not commit suicide, but they were essentially saying that they could kill themselves and be with Jesus. This is just evil and wrong on so many levels I do not even no where to begin. The moral issue alone should tell someone it is wrong. For was Jim Jones doing a good thing when he got his people to commit suicide? Do you think those people are saved? Anyways, this belief encourages suicide because there is no real spiritual or eternal consequence in committing suicide (According to many popular OSAS beliefs).

PROOF positive of your excusing your own sin. James said if we even say a the littlest of white lies. we are guilty of the whole law and justly condemned as sinners which brings forth death.

Not to mention. it is impossible to know all sin (important, because the smalles of all sins as we know (well you do not but the rest of us do) would condemn us to hell. and we can not possibly know every sin we commit. so in reality, Your false senerio of works here would condemn every man woman and child, including yourself.

#5. Once a Son, Always a Son.
This suggests that it doesn't matter how bad a family member might get, they are still a part of the family. But this doesn't make sense because if they killed one of their own family members they would be placed into jail and possibly executed and be dead; Hence, they could no longer function as an active member of that family anymore. Also, many in the OSAS camp will say you can't be unborn, too. But this doesn't make any sense to say because people in real life are born into this world and then die. So the proper analogy is that one can die. This makes sense because the Bible says "death" is the wages of sin. So yes, you may be born as a son, but if they die, they cannot function in that family anymore by playing ball with them and or eating with them, etc.

I pray you are not a parent. You would kick your own adopte son out of your family, what would stop you from kicking your natural son or daughter out?

I did not force my way into Gods family. He adopted me, when I was his enemy. God just does not kick his kids out of his family because they mess up. This would go against his character (perfect love) his justice (he promised to forget all sin, and make us clean) his person (he is supposed to be omniscient, yet he choses to adopt people who got so bad he had to kick them out. why did he not know they would do this before giving them his FREE gift? and his integrity (no one has any hope. because he claims to love you and give you a free gift of eternal life. then yanks it from you because you do not live up to his standard (which by the way, no one can) thus agan, no one would make it to heaven.

#6. Sin cannot break the Seal of the Spirit.
The Assumption here is that the Seal is unbreakable. Nowhere does the verse ever say that. Seals in the Bible have been broken open like in the book of Revelation. Besides, Saul once had the Spirit of God and the Lord left him. David cried out to God not to take His Holy Spirit from him. If David believed that the Spirit could not be taken from him, he would have never said what he did in Psalm 51.

Sealed UNTIL the day of redemption.

No conditions.

No "unless (fill in the blank) Occures

Again, you make God out to be a liar and a thief. but hey, if thats the God you want to follow. Have at it, you can have that lieing, theiving, unknowing god

#7. We are Sinners and Nobody will ever be Perfect.
Here we see the holiness doctrine being thrown right out the window. Any hope at teaching righteousness would be a hypocritical act on behalf of the OSAS teacher because he or she cannot be righteous themselves. He or she believes they will never be perfect or that they cannot be righteous. But Jesus said, be ye perfect as my Heavenly Father is perfect; And the Scriptures say, without holiness no man shall see the Lord.

if we break even the least of the commands, we are guilty of the whoel law (james)

If we say we have no sin, we decieve ourselves and the truth is not in us (John)

Cursed is everyone who does not confirm and obey EVERY WORD of this law (Paul)

According to these apostles. No one can keep the law (requires perfection) thus all have sin, if they declare they do not, they are liars and decievers. Thus no one is perfect. and your final point is totally rebuffed, refuted, and thrown in the trash, to go where the rest of your points went before it.

 

[dcontroversal]

Heb 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
KJV


Setting aside [temporarily] the OSAS argument; the Scripture cited above clearly indicates that if a believer could loose his Salvation; there would be NO WAY TO GET IT BACK.

I do NOT believe that Salvation can be lost; but I am certain that lost Salvation (if that is possible) can NEVER be regained.

Amen and I agree and will add.....the ones who say you can lose it have never lost it or not sinned enough to lose it in their mind, but people who believe in eternal security are the worst sinners on the planet, denying this and that and teaching we can live anyway we want..........

 

[Jeff_56]

very good!

look up (web search) "be terrified" site biblegateway dot com.

you should be terrified. properly.

Dear Jeff,

Your posts tend to scare me a little.

Sincerely,
Mikey

 

[Jeff_56]

(potentiallly) very good.

web search> erased life site biblegateway dot com. and see.

Heb 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
KJV
the Scripture cited above clearly indicates that if a believer could loose his Salvation; there would be NO WAY TO GET IT BACK.
.........

 

[eternally-gratefull]

To me.... it is pure evil (In it's highest form).
People can't see it because they don't want to.

No Evil is saying

1. God does not keep his promises
2. God can be fooled into giving something he knows he has to take back (he is God, He knows all things)
3. Gods death on the cross was insufficient, He needs us to do works (meet conditions)
4. God can be fooled


What is evil is saying something God calls a gift, Given by Grace (unearned favor) must be earned by meating conditions (conditional salvation)