People think you have to keep grace on a leash

[ember]

Here is a point many miss about LOVE including yourself. LOVE cannot be turned into a law...(Aww, do I have to love that jerk?) Love is a gift included and is part of our new nature which we exercise as we grasp by faith the great love by which God loved us.

That's really good. That's a great point!

 

[crossnote]

True, we have complete validation from God. But there is nothing wrong with needing validation from others espcially those claiming to have same like mindedness. We have felt pushed to the sidelines in our church. Oh, they wanted our money but they didn't want us. They were very into reaching out to those outside the church but they missed the opportunity of the hearts crying out right out under their noses. We felt like the 'unclean'. After 3 and 1/2 years we left.

A nice example that people are not always what they claim to be.

 

[Jason0047]

You will never understand the grace of God until you understand the depravity of man. Read Romans 1 to see how bad a born again person can get.

Where in Romans 1 does it say it is talking about a born again believer? Anyways, we learn in Romans 1 that the Wrath of God abides on the unbeliever because of their unrighteousnesness (or sin). For not only does unrepentant sin destroy the unbeliever but unrepentant sin also destroys the believer, too (See Galatians 5).

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That's really good. That's a great point!

I agree with you.

God does not have to love me, I definately did nothing to deserve it, and am fully deserving of his condemnation.

For Gods people. I am not forced to love someone, I have the capacity to love someone, no matter what they do to me, Because of what God has given me, Thus it is not my love, it is his love flowing out from me.

Under that, there is no law

 

[Jason0047]

I read the whole post, I just didn't paste the whole thing.

[EXCERPT]"Grace extends to everyone, even those Christian Chatters that annoy us to no end.....we tend to separate those chatters from ourselves, looking at them as "unclean" while we are in the "clean" camp."

Now you misquoted them and then misinterpreted...a perfect strawman. They only summed up the Pharisee/Publican story.

Here is a point many miss about LOVE including yourself. LOVE cannot be turned into a law...(Aww, do I have to love that jerk?) Love is a gift included and is part of our new nature which we exercise as we grasp by faith the great love by which God loved us.

And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. We love him, because he first loved us.
(1Jn 4:16-19)

Jesus said you can be defiled by what comes out of your mouth. So there is an unclean camp and a clean camp in relation to this topic. He is saying that there is no camps in regards to those who annoy others with their speech. But annoying others is not Godly speech, but carnal speech which is not of God and is a sin. So yes. It is unclean to annoy others by our understanding of that word.

As for love not being turned into a Law: Well, what in the world do you think God was doing to the Israelites when He gave them the 10 Commandments? Was He hating them? No, of course not. God does everything out of love. In fact, Jesus said if you love me, you will keep my commandments. The Law of Moses? Well, yes and no. We do not obey all of the Laws under the Old Testament (Because the OT Covenant is no more), but we do obey the moral laws from the Old Testament still because they are based on love (i.e. To love God and to love others).

As for 1 John 4: Well, when we read 1 John 4:8 that God is love, we also have to read 1 John 3:15 that says whosoever hates his brother is a murderer and we know no murderer has eternal life abiding within them.

 

[Jason0047]

Romans 6:14 says, “For sin shall no longerbe your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.”(NIV) If ever there was a statement of Paul’s to cling to,friend, it is this one. For what is more important in the Christian life thansin not being your master? Many people can write books on how to overcome sin,but Paul tells us in eighteen words. And who would know better than Paul? Whenhe lived under the law he was the chief of sinners, a blasphemer, and a violentman. He was so zealous to protect the Pharisaic religion – a religion thatpinned its hopes of Heaven on strict obedience to the law − that he wasresponsible for families being thrown into prison for being Christians. Haveyou ever read Romans chapter seven, friend? Much of it is a tale of despair, ofanguish, and of sin being Paul’s master, for he is recalling his time as aPharisee before his conversion to Christianity. After his conversion, however,this same Paul became just as zealous to defend the need for righteous livingas a Christian. For at that point, he was not living under the law, but undergrace.
Now what does Paul mean exactly by theChristian not being under the law? Well he states in Romans 10:4, “For Christis the end of the law for righteousnessto every one that believeth.” (KJV, emphasis mine)
So we see, when Paul says we are not underthe law, he means the Christian is not under a law of righteousness before God.So Paul is not saying Christ is the end of the law full stop. No! He saysChrist is the end of the law forrighteousness. The law remains, therefore, but the penalty attached to itfor breaking the law (sin) is removed. Yousee, if you are not under a law of righteousness before God, you cannot be madeunrighteous in His sight for your imperfections concerning those laws, can you?It is not possible. You cannot be condemned, therefore, foryour imperfections where those laws are concerned. You are off the hook. Thisis what so many find so hard to reconcile, however. They find it so hard toaccept the Christian is not under a righteousness of obedience to the lawbefore God. They know that must mean you cannot be condemned for your sin, thepenalty, for it must have been removed, and to them, that gives a person alicence to sin. You see, however, it is much easier to understand Paul’scomments about us not being under the law if we accept the core terms of beingunder the New Covenant. I would place them before you again, if I may, inHebrews 10:16-17:

Thisis the covenant I will make with them after that time,says the Lord. ‘I will put my laws intheir hearts,and I will write them ontheir minds.’ Then he adds: ‘Their sins and lawless actsI willremember no more.’” (NIV, emphasis mine)

As I have previously mentioned, the NewCovenant hinges on not one, but two core points. At the point of conversion,the Holy Spirit writes the law on our minds and places it on our hearts. Wehave then been born again. We have been changed into people who want to obey inour hearts the law God desires us to keep. At the very moment this happens, weare not under law but under grace, for we have a Saviour from our sin. Our sinsand lawless acts will be remembered no more. You see, friend, Jesus cannot beyour Saviour from sin unless you are born again. For He will not be anyone’sSaviour from sin unless they desire in their heart to live as His Father wantsthem to. You see, God is not stupid. He didn’t make a covenant that would giveanyone a license to sin if the penalty for sin were removed. Born again peoplecannot view this covenant that way, for they want to obey from their hearts.That is the whole point of being born again. If you want to obey God from yourheart, as I have previously mentioned, it is impossible for you then towilfully − without conscience − seek to break God’s laws. It cannot happen,friend. Jesus said to Nicodemus, “Ye mustbe born again.” (emphasis mine) It is not an option; it is pivotal. Withoutthat happening, you cannot be saved.

Jesus said his mothers, brothers, and sisters are those who obey the will of the Father (Which is obviously righteousness and not sin). Jesus said, why call Him, Lord, Lord if you do not do what He says. So belief is in context to trusting in Jesus by a walk by faith. For there is no Condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who WALK not after the flesh but after the Spirit. So there is no Condemnation if you WALK after the Spirit. However, there is Condemnation if you WALK after the flesh.

As for God putting His laws within our hearts: Why put His laws within a believer's heart if they are just going to rebel and sin against Him? What would be the purpose of putting a Law in their hearts then if they choose not to obey? What you propose does not make any sense. God forgives past sins and transgressions. He is not forgiving willful unrepentant sin that they commit in the present or the future. A believer has to confess their sins and forsake them. It's the basics of the faith.

 

[yaright]

It really wasnt a question I was looking for an answer to, but put forth in the sense of why leash the kind of grace that does not let sin have dominion over us?

Meaning its pretty amazing in that effectual.

Or in otherwords, why leash that effectual?

Thank you for your thoughts on the matter

Sorry, I know you did not ask the question; but I have within me the curiosity of a child, and ask, "What does this mean, and how does this affect my life?" When I examine any biblical inflection, I allow it to teach me who I am and why I am that way in God's sight. Some things teach, and have meaning to me. This is how and why I responded the way I did. Not that you pointed outwardly, but that the things you shared searched me.

 

[yaright]

Jesus said his mothers, brothers, and sisters are those who obey the will of the Father (Which is obviously righteousness and not sin). Jesus said, why call Him, Lord, Lord if you do not do what He says. So belief is in context to trusting in Jesus by a walk by faith. For there is no Condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who WALK not after the flesh but after the Spirit. So there is no Condemnation if you WALK after the Spirit. However, there is Condemnation if you WALK after the flesh.

As for God putting His laws within our hearts: Why put His laws within a believer's heart if they are just going to rebel and sin against Him? What would be the purpose of putting a Law in their hearts then if they choose not to obey? What you propose does not make any sense. God forgives past sins and transgressions. He is not forgiving willful unrepentant sin that they commit in the present or the future. A believer has to confess their sins and forsake them. It's the basics of the faith.

There is an answer your question of "Why put His laws within a believers heart if they are going to rebel and sin against Him?" The answer pertains to (in effect) two laws governing the same issue. The first pertains to the flesh, and the second first pertains to the spirit of the same person. All the laws give the appearance of pertaining to the flesh; But Jesus shows the purpose of the image of these same laws. In other words, one (you can see) is the image (you cannot see except from within) of the other. Another way is to say, "The first and the second first" A simple example would be about those who believed they could remain hidden in their sin. Our Heavenly Father sent word that He will teach and send men to 'fish them out'

Is this about fishing, which you can see? And yet it is the promise of a command which Jesus is fulfilling even to this day, but this fishing Jesus spoke of you cannot see except from within. All biblical laws are given with this key to open understanding.

 

[DesiredHaven]

Sorry, I know you did not ask the question; but I have within me the curiosity of a child, and ask, "What does this mean, and how does this affect my life?" When I examine any biblical inflection, I allow it to teach me who I am and why I am that way in God's sight. Some things teach, and have meaning to me. This is how and why I responded the way I did. Not that you pointed outwardly, but that the things you shared searched me.

No problem yaright, I just really thought you were trying to answer that question lol!

It was just like I was saying, our God is so great, is he not?

And then I thought, man, I got to be more careful where I put my question marks (lol)

God bless you

 

[FridaysChild]

Sorry, I know you did not ask the question; but I have within me the curiosity of a child, and ask, "What does this mean, and how does this affect my life?" When I examine any biblical inflection, I allow it to teach me who I am and why I am that way in God's sight. Some things teach, and have meaning to me. This is how and why I responded the way I did. Not that you pointed outwardly, but that the things you shared searched me.

You know, this comes across poetic. Definitely speaks to me.

"...but that the things you shared searched me"

LOVE IT!!! Yes, that's the Holy Spirit digging around there bringing out the nuggets of a teachable moment. Juicy!

 

[ember]

I agree with you.

God does not have to love me, I definately did nothing to deserve it, and am fully deserving of his condemnation.

For Gods people. I am not forced to love someone, I have the capacity to love someone, no matter what they do to me, Because of what God has given me, Thus it is not my love, it is his love flowing out from me.

Under that, there is no law

Yes...like we have the capacity to forgive...and in fact are told to forgive as God in Christ has forgiven us...see..even the forgiveness is first from God

These things are not easy...I think it must be easier for some to say, well, I must keep this part or must keep that part of the law...it is almost like they think they need an insurance policy...that they underwrite themself

 

[crossnote]

Jesus said you can be defiled by what comes out of your mouth. So there is an unclean camp and a clean camp in relation to this topic. He is saying that there is no camps in regards to those who annoy others with their speech. But annoying others is not Godly speech, but carnal speech which is not of God and is a sin. So yes. It is unclean to annoy others by our understanding of that word.

As for love not being turned into a Law: Well, what in the world do you think God was doing to the Israelites when He gave them the 10 Commandments? Was He hating them? No, of course not. God does everything out of love. In fact, Jesus said if you love me, you will keep my commandments. The Law of Moses? Well, yes and no. We do not obey all of the Laws under the Old Testament (Because the OT Covenant is no more), but we do obey the moral laws from the Old Testament still because they are based on love (i.e. To love God and to love others).

As for 1 John 4: Well, when we read 1 John 4:8 that God is love, we also have to read 1 John 3:15 that says whosoever hates his brother is a murderer and we know no murderer has eternal life abiding within them.

For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks...it's a heart issue.
As far as the camps go, take that up with the OP.
Reread Romans7, Paul could not keep the moral law (coveting for ex.) as it was intended...fully from the heart. Even with the help of the Holy Spirit our 'goodness' falls short, and as the Reformers would say, 'our good works need to be repented of'.
Your 1John 4 quote is a non sequiter.

 

[slave]

I am not talking believers backsliding into sin and with them coming back (Which is by God's grace and mercy). James 5:19-20 talks about a believer helping another believer who has erred from the truth to come back to a saving faith by helping them to repent to the Lord. I am talking about the false teaching of OSAS which will lead people down the wrong path of immorality. Yes, David sinned. But he did not keep doing so as a way of life against God. For David was a man after God's own heart. If a believer sins, it is very serious. Sin put Jesus Christ on the cross. If one is born again it should be unnatural for them to sin. It will go against the new person they are in Christ. If they sin, they need to confess that sin and forsake it. No believer is saved if they abide in unrepentant sin as a way of life. Yes, I realize some believers struggle with sin, but this is not something that will forever grip their life. We are free from the dominion of sin if we are in Christ Jesus.

I applaud every word of that! Have felt and said the same things to others along the way...Amen!, Brother...I also feel your conviction...also something I feel...Over this exact same issue. Just because we have grace and forgiveness we cannot stop there. We need to go all the way to Christ's victory in our living...I absolutely agree..

I am sorry I saw your point aimed differently last night I was tired and I read fast thru it. Later I read it closer, and stated as such,... I do agree with the interpretation of this doctrine in scripture and there are some in the faith that fall short, as christians, in our understanding, of the more than conquering victory in Christ that God has called all of us to follow, For He has given the complete package; nothing needs to be added to it. If we don't see it that way, and don't allow the free gift to exist in our lives..it will become the condition to our salvation...High -Five brother. Let the the truth of Gods word not be diluted in its reconciling power .

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes...like we have the capacity to forgive...and in fact are told to forgive as God in Christ has forgiven us...see..even the forgiveness is first from God

These things are not easy...I think it must be easier for some to say, well, I must keep this part or must keep that part of the law...it is almost like they think they need an insurance policy...that they underwrite themself

hence the term legalism.

If I did not trust God, I would be a catholic, they have the most amount of works. and most ways to be forgiven. I would not be one of these only confess, or repent people. who think they are good enough and have earned forgiveness. Not enough works there to assure me I would make it. I would want the most.

 

[slave]

Jesus said his mothers, brothers, and sisters are those who obey the will of the Father (Which is obviously righteousness and not sin). Jesus said, why call Him, Lord, Lord if you do not do what He says. So belief is in context to trusting in Jesus by a walk by faith. For there is no Condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who WALK not after the flesh but after the Spirit. So there is no Condemnation if you WALK after the Spirit. However, there is Condemnation if you WALK after the flesh.

As for God putting His laws within our hearts: Why put His laws within a believer's heart if they are just going to rebel and sin against Him? What would be the purpose of putting a Law in their hearts then if they choose not to obey? What you propose does not make any sense. God forgives past sins and transgressions. He is not forgiving willful unrepentant sin that they commit in the present or the future. A believer has to confess their sins and forsake them. It's the basics of the faith.

Well said...I think I will send a friend request...Smile. This was on my heart.......I turn, and I see my heart written thru your words...Hmmm Same Spirit?!! If there was a Spiritual wrestling match with the other Spirit found in someone, I would feel honored to tag team the reconciliation match anytime. Smile.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I applaud every word of that! Have felt and said the same things to others along the way...Amen!, Brother...I also feel your conviction...also something I feel...Over this exact same issue. Just because we have grace and forgiveness we cannot stop there. We need to go all the way to Christ's victory in our living...I absolutely agree..

Going all the way in Gods eyes would be going to perfection (the law) not just part way, which Jason here is preaching.

we do not make up with laws we need to follow and call them good. it is all or nothing.

I am sorry I saw your point aimed differently last night I was tired and I read fast thru it. Later I read it closer, and stated as such,... I do agree with the interpretation of this doctrine in scripture and there are some in the faith that fall short, as christians, in our understanding, of the more than conquering victory in Christ that God has called all of us to follow, For He has given the complete package; nothing needs to be added to it. If we don't see it that way, and don't allow the free gift to exist in our lives..it will become the condition to our salvation...High -Five brother. Let the the truth of Gods word not be diluted in its reconciling power .

your right, there is a such thing of a faith that falls short. James calls it dead. powerless. Unable to save anyone. Those people will never be saved, let alone, have a salvation that can be lost. Faith is a pure trust and assurance, or it is no faith at all.

Jason does not teach this faith, he teaches a wishy washy faith which is no faith at all.

 

[michael56]

As for God putting His laws within our hearts: Why put His laws within a believer's heart if they are just going to rebel and sin against Him? What would be the purpose of putting a Law in their hearts then if they choose not to obey? What you propose does not make any sense. God forgives past sins and transgressions. He is not forgiving willful unrepentant sin that they commit in the present or the future. A believer has to confess their sins and forsake them. It's the basics of the faith.

I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. [SUP]27 [/SUP]And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. Ezekiel36:26&27

This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”[SUP][b][/SUP][SUP]17 [/SUP]Then he adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more Heb10:16&17

God's ways are higher than man's, and so are His thoughts. Don't rely on the natural academic mind to understand the spiritual, it will either make no sense or you will come to wrong conclusions

 

[BradC]

So you can still be saved and have lustful thoughts towards women? You can still be saved and hate your brother? You can still be saved if you got bombed at a college party? Sorry, not buying it. Grace does not give a person a free pass to do evil in God's name.

Jason, that is how you have come to think of it and you have never understood what it means to be oriented to the grace of God. God gives grace to keep us from sin, He gives us grace when we sin and to keep us from continuing in sin. We need His grace all the way through for the rest of our life, so that we can grow in grace and knowledge of Him, who is the God of all grace. God has never and will never give us grace to sin or live in sin and that is your misconception of those who live by grace and think God for every measure that has abounded toward them when they deserved non of it. That we might know the exceeding riches of God's grace.

 

[Jason0047]

Think of the person you love the most in this world. If you killed them, you would have to pay the penalty for your actions the law demands in your country wouldn't you? What if your government came to you and told you if you did harm/kill them you would not pay the penalty required by the law for doing so, the penalty had been removed from you. Would that knowledge immediatley make you go and kill the person-break that particular law?

Well, this would only apply to the person who truly loved the Lord and who would seek not to do bad again. There are many who still love the pleasure of their sin over God and that is evident in the way they live. For Jesus said, you will know them by their fruits. Also, sin can take many forms so we have to apply that to other examples in life beside just the narrow one that you have placed upon it. Ultimately, sin is transgression of the law; And it only took one sin for Adam and Eve to fall. It wasn't murder and it wasn't sexual immorality to the highest extreme that made them fall. They just ate of the wrong Tree. That's it. That's all it took for all of mankind to be under the curse of sin and death. Yet, you want things to be different. You are trying to change a pre-established truth since the beginning. Sin brings death. Spiritual death because we needed a Savior to save us from our sins spiritually (Which was a result of the Fall because of sin). Sin leads to spiritual death (Whether you are a believer or unbeliever). That's Bible 101.

A better example would be comparing a man being faithful to God (After they are born again) with a husband and wife (By legal marriage). Sin is unfaithfulness or rebellion against the pre-established trust and boundaries for that couple of which is loving, good and productive. If the man is unfaithful to his wife, and she finds out, he has to confess his unfaithfulness to her and say he is sorry and make a promise to never be unfaithful again if he has any hope at keeping that marriage. It's the same with God. Why would you think it would be any different?

 

[Jason0047]

Oh man it can't be this bad surely.
It's a two part covenant-not one part

Yes, there are differences between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. We obviously do not seek to obey all of the Laws found in the Old Testament anymore. For the Old has past away. However, in both covenants men were both justified by faith, renewed in spirit (regenerated spiritually), given the Spirit of God, obeyed the moral law and could be separated from God by either by unrepentant sin and unbelief. Not sure why you think these things have changed.