People think you have to keep grace on a leash

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forsha

Guest
Joking about sin is no laughing matter. Sin put Jesus Christ on the cross. So let's please have a little respect out of what our Savior went thru for all of mankind... okay?
He went through much more than you give him credit for. Such as saving eternally all those that his Father gave him (John 5:39). without the loss of even one.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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I am not trying to worm my way out of anything. It's not that far off from what I said. Truckers are not complete strangers to one another. They share a common occupation, trials, and pay. They communicate and talk with each other (in person and by radio), etc. Besides, what I said does not mean I was writing an entire book that was exhaustive on the subject. I can believe the one and also believe the other, too. Both sta)tements are equally true and not in contradiction. For one can do the same with the Bible, too. They can say the Bible is in contradiction, but if they were to compare what Scripture says elsewhere on the matter, we find that such a contradiction is not one at all. One has to take everything the Bible says on a matter. Just as one should not judge what a person says in just one sentence, either.
Hmm, a real loywah...do you no longer stand by your statement?...
"Bro, is reserved for those you are in close intimacy with."
 
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Delivery

Guest
According to Matthew 7, there are going to be some who the Lord says for them to depart from them and says He does not know them. It is strange, because many OSAS proponents have said you can be out of fellowship with God and still be saved. Yet, Jesus says if He does not know a believer (Which implies fellowship), then He is going to tell them to depart from Him for working iniquity (Which is obviously talking about some kind of "sin"; Whether it be the excusing of sin in Antinomianism or the sin of Works Salvationism).
Who said you can be out of fellowship with God and still be saved? I'm an OSAS proponent, as you called us, but I don't recall ever saying that you can be out of fellowship with God and still be saved. I do recall saying that once you are in Fellowship with God, once you know Him and are one of His, that He will never leave nor forsake you, which means you are saved forever. But then, that's what God said also. You can never get out of fellowship once you are in.

That verse in Mathew 7 that you noted says, "I never knew you. Depart from me ye that work iniquity." He never knew them in the first place, which means they never got saved in the first place. It's not talking about people who are saved, then losing their Salvation over some sin they committed.

It's talking about people who try to get into Heaven some other way than through Jesus. More specifically it's about people who think that their own almighty good works and righteous acts cause them to deserve heaven. They depended on their own righteous ability to do good and be good and obedient, instead of on the Lord's grace, love and mercy to save them.

[SUP]22[/SUP] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

To depend solely on the Lord for your Salvation instead of yourself you have to be an "OSAS Proponent".
 
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gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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Who said you can be out of fellowship with God and still be saved? I'm an OSAS proponent, as you called us, but I don't recall ever saying that you can be out of fellowship with God and still be saved. I do recall saying that once you are in Fellowship with God, once you know Him and are one of His, that He will never leave nor forsake you, which means you are saved forever. But then, that's what God said also. You can never get out of fellowship once you are in.

That verse in Mathew 7 that you noted says, "I never knew you. Depart from me ye that work iniquity." He never knew them in the first place, which means they never got saved in the first place. It's not talking about people who are saved, then losing their Salvation over some sin they committed.

It's talking about people who try to get into Heaven some other way than through Jesus. More specifically it's about people who think that their own almighty good works and righteous acts cause them to deserve heaven. They depended on their own righteous ability to do good and be good and obedient, instead of on the Lord's grace, love and mercy to save them.

[SUP]22[/SUP]Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

To depend solely on the Lord for your Salvation instead of yourself you have to be an "OSAS Proponent".
you might be kind of new at this so a tip: when you converse with Jason he will tell you what you said. what you write will not matter, he will tell you what it means.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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According to Matthew 7, there are going to be some who the Lord says for them to depart from them and says He does not know them. It is strange, because many OSAS proponents have said you can be out of fellowship with God and still be saved. Yet, Jesus says if He does not know a believer (Which implies fellowship), then He is going to tell them to depart from Him for working iniquity (Which is obviously talking about some kind of "sin"; Whether it be the excusing of sin in Antinomianism or the sin of Works Salvationism).
Mt. 7 says 'I NEVER knew you' ...Jesus knew all born again believers at least once...not 'never'.
 
Jul 22, 2014
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Hmm, a real loywah...do you no longer stand by your statement?...
"Bro, is reserved for those you are in close intimacy with."
As I said before. Both statements that I said are equally true. I stand behind both of them. Surely what I had written in that one sentence was not an exhaustive book on the subject. So no. There is no contradiction in what I said. One statement does not conflict with the other one. In other words, that would be like me saying I like chocolate and then you later pointing out that I don't like chocolate because I said elswhere that I don't like chocolate covered over liver or bugs.
 
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Delivery

Guest
Joking about sin is no laughing matter. Sin put Jesus Christ on the cross. So let's please have a little respect out of what our Savior went thru for all of mankind... okay?
Am I laughing? I wasn't joking, although, I can see how you might think that. I wasn't laughing about sin or being disrespectful to Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. But I do think it's laughable that some people think they can earn or deserve heaven by not sinning. So let's be respectful of God's grace, shall we? I was merely making the point that we're all sinners in need of a savior and if you think by sinning that we can lose our Salvation including all of you who think your so good that the sins you commit are not as bad as somebody else's sins, so you're not going to lose your Salvation over them. If you could lose your Salvation because of committing some sin after getting saved, then everybody is going to lose their Salvation because everybody is a sinner. Blain sinned by swearing. Did he lose his Salvation? He either lost his Salvation or he is "once saved, always saved". Because all of his sins are forgiven forever. which is it? Did you commit any sins? Did you lose your Salvation over them? Or are you forgiven?
 
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Am I laughing? I wasn't joking, although, I can see how you might think that. I wasn't laughing about sin or being disrespectful to Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. But I do think it's laughable that some people think they can earn or deserve heaven by not sinning. So let's be respectful of God's grace, shall we? I was merely making the point that we're all sinners in need of a savior and if you think by sinning that we can lose our Salvation including all of you who think your so good that the sins you commit are not as bad as somebody else's sins, so you're not going to lose your Salvation over them. If you could lose your Salvation because of committing some sin after getting saved, then everybody is going to lose their Salvation because everybody is a sinner. Blain sinned by swearing. Did he lose his Salvation? He either lost his Salvation or he is "once saved, always saved". Because all of his sins are forgiven forever. which is it? Did you commit any sins? Did you lose your Salvation over them? Or are you forgiven?
careful this kind of understanding would cause his head to explode.
 
Jul 22, 2014
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Mt. 7 says 'I NEVER knew you' ...Jesus knew all born again believers at least once...not 'never'.
God will forget the righteous deeds of those who turn away from their righteousness and it will be as if their previous righteousness was no more (or non existent).

Meaning, he will act like He no longer knows a believer if they chooses to do evil again.

But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. (Ezekiel 18:24).

For keeping God's commands is tied to knowing God.

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. (1 John 2:3-5).

This line of thinking is also expressed in 2 Chronicles 24:20, too. For God had forsaken those who had forsaken Him when they transgressed His Commandments.

And the Spirit of God came upon Zechariah the son of Jehoiada the priest, which stood above the people, and said unto them, Thus saith God, Why transgress ye the commandments of the LORD, that ye cannot prosper? because ye have forsaken the LORD, he hath also forsaken you.

Iin other words, when one is forsaken by God, that means He no longer knows them.
 
Jul 22, 2014
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Am I laughing? I wasn't joking, although, I can see how you might think that. I wasn't laughing about sin or being disrespectful to Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. But I do think it's laughable that some people think they can earn or deserve heaven by not sinning. So let's be respectful of God's grace, shall we? I was merely making the point that we're all sinners in need of a savior and if you think by sinning that we can lose our Salvation including all of you who think your so good that the sins you commit are not as bad as somebody else's sins, so you're not going to lose your Salvation over them. If you could lose your Salvation because of committing some sin after getting saved, then everybody is going to lose their Salvation because everybody is a sinner. Blain sinned by swearing. Did he lose his Salvation? He either lost his Salvation or he is "once saved, always saved". Because all of his sins are forgiven forever. which is it? Did you commit any sins? Did you lose your Salvation over them? Or are you forgiven?
There are sins that lead unto death and sins that do not lead unto death (1 John 5:16-18). Paul lists certain sins several times by which a person will not inherit the Kingdom of God. These sins are murder, theft, lust, hate, and getting drunk, etc.
 
Jul 22, 2014
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you might be kind of new at this so a tip: when you converse with Jason he will tell you what you said. what you write will not matter, he will tell you what it means.
I don't believe most OSAS proponents because from experience most (Not all) on one hand will say one thing making you think they are for God's goodness and then on the other hand they say something that completely destroys that idea. Granted, I always try to give someone the benefit of the doubt. But if they appear to be against me arguing against one in upholding the Moral Law of love in the New Testament, or they are thinking they can sin a little and not repent of it, then that is a pretty good indication that they are not in service to God and His good ways according to God's Word and common basic Morality (That everyone knows about).
 
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jn4mw

Guest
While I thank you for the compliment, I was not actually judging anyone outright to begin with. My primary form of attack is the false doctrine known as Once Saved Always Saved which I believe leads one to think they can have a license to sin. I have met people who say they are for holiness but under close examination and discussion of what they believe about sin and how they actually deal with it in their Christian lives, I found out that what they actually believe paints a different picture of the story. Granted, I am not saying all OSAS proponents are alike. But most who argue with me are not really like my close friend or brother I know in person who is for the position of OSAS Lite (Which teaches that holiness is the requirement or test that lets us know a person who is truly a born again son). If one is not living holy then they were never saved to begin with. Granted, I do not believe in this doctrine myself, but I do consider them to be my brothers because they do not make excuses for sin.

However, you have to know it is not wrong for me to say that doing evil is wrong, though (Which is at the heart of most other forms of OSAS that people are holding onto these days). For would it be wrong for you to be firm and stand up and fight the good fight of faith in telling a woman to not have an abortion while others are ranting against you? I say thee nay. Pointing out what is wrong is not an example of one being unloving. Pointing out what is wrong helps a person to repent and turn to God. For the Scriptures say we are not to have fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but we are to rather reprove them. The Scriptures also say, Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good, too. For I only judge if someone has judged me. I do not set out to attack others. I set out to attack false beliefs and doctrines of devils. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood but against principalties, and wickedness in high places.
Pointing out that sin is wrong is not bad, and that is not what I said or at least not what I intended to say. You are giving your interpretation of the Bible as fact, as are others on this thread. As I said I can tell that you strongly believe what you are saying to be true, but you are taking it upon yourself to preach the Word of God and that your interpretation is the truth. This is not something to enter into lightly as if you are wrong, you will be leading others (if any choose to listen) down the wrong path. We can try to do good and be pleasing to God but our understanding is not perfect and therefore we make mistakes we misinterpret what is said. If this were not true the debates that go on throughout the churches would not because it would be clear in our perfect understanding of what is written. I do not wish to debate your point, I have read what you said looked up the sections of scripture that you quote and I believe personally that you are misinterpreting. You have to realize that what you are saying and doing if proven wrong when facing God can have serious consequences. I am simply suggesting that for your own sake that you do not project your belief as truth, as God is the only one with perfect understanding of truth. Also you are saying that you are without sin?? and therefore a much more mature christian than those you debate with, but you sit and argue about wether the term bro is rude. I would consider how you come across and what you are truly trying to impart to others before you post what it is that you say.

This whole thread has turned into an attack on each other. This is not how we are supposed to treat others that aren't christians, let alone those that are on the same journey as us. Yeah there are differences of opinion but can't we let that go and attempt to encourage one another rather than beat them down. God is love and that is what we are supposed to emulate among other things.

1 Corinthians 13:13 "And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love."
 
Jul 22, 2014
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Pointing out that sin is wrong is not bad, and that is not what I said or at least not what I intended to say. You are giving your interpretation of the Bible as fact, as are others on this thread. As I said I can tell that you strongly believe what you are saying to be true, but you are taking it upon yourself to preach the Word of God and that your interpretation is the truth. This is not something to enter into lightly as if you are wrong, you will be leading others (if any choose to listen) down the wrong path. We can try to do good and be pleasing to God but our understanding is not perfect and therefore we make mistakes we misinterpret what is said. If this were not true the debates that go on throughout the churches would not because it would be clear in our perfect understanding of what is written. I do not wish to debate your point, I have read what you said looked up the sections of scripture that you quote and I believe personally that you are misinterpreting. You have to realize that what you are saying and doing if proven wrong when facing God can have serious consequences. I am simply suggesting that for your own sake that you do not project your belief as truth, as God is the only one with perfect understanding of truth. Also you are saying that you are without sin?? and therefore a much more mature christian than those you debate with, but you sit and argue about wether the term bro is rude. I would consider how you come across and what you are truly trying to impart to others before you post what it is that you say.

This whole thread has turned into an attack on each other. This is not how we are supposed to treat others that aren't christians, let alone those that are on the same journey as us. Yeah there are differences of opinion but can't we let that go and attempt to encourage one another rather than beat them down. God is love and that is what we are supposed to emulate among other things.

1 Corinthians 13:13 "And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love."
On your first point: Yes, the greatest of these is love. But see, I know that the OSAS proponent who believes they can sin and still be saved is in darkness. Would it be loving of me to let them stay in the dark? No it wouldn't. Anymore than it would be loving to let someone destroy their lives by alcohol. Second, did I come out with guns blazing against any one particular person here from the get go? No. As I said, I am attacking a false belief of which I KNOW that God's Word teaches very plainly. If you are unsure that OSAS is false, then I would encourage you to look at the long list of verses that very clearly refutes OSAS here.
 
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Delivery

Guest
There are sins that lead unto death and sins that do not lead unto death (1 John 5:16-18). Paul lists certain sins several times by which a person will not inherit the Kingdom of God. These sins are murder, theft, lust, hate, and getting drunk, etc.
Jesus, Himself, said there was only one unpardonable sin, blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. But it seems your point is that you can only lose your salvation if you commit what most people feel are the worst sins like murder, thefts, etc. In saying that you are saying that Jesus will only forgive your sins if they aren't very serious ones. But He won't forgive the more serious ones. But that is not a scriptural doctrine. What sins each of us may or may not be guilty of is irrelevant.

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

All sin, no matter how big or small, causes us to fall short of the glory of God and be undeserving of heaven. Therefore, if you could lose your Salvation over a big sin, then you can lose your Salvation over a small one. But the fact of the matter is, once you receive Jesus all your sins are forgiven forever. They are wiped clean by the blood of the Lamb.
 
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Jul 22, 2014
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Am I laughing? I wasn't joking, although, I can see how you might think that. I wasn't laughing about sin or being disrespectful to Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. But I do think it's laughable that some people think they can earn or deserve heaven by not sinning. So let's be respectful of God's grace, shall we? I was merely making the point that we're all sinners in need of a savior and if you think by sinning that we can lose our Salvation including all of you who think your so good that the sins you commit are not as bad as somebody else's sins, so you're not going to lose your Salvation over them. If you could lose your Salvation because of committing some sin after getting saved, then everybody is going to lose their Salvation because everybody is a sinner. Blain sinned by swearing. Did he lose his Salvation? He either lost his Salvation or he is "once saved, always saved". Because all of his sins are forgiven forever. which is it? Did you commit any sins? Did you lose your Salvation over them? Or are you forgiven?
Whatever your intention might have been. God will know it. For now I will give you the benefit of the doubt and believe you.

As for a person not losing their salvation when they sin: Not sure you are in harmony with reality here, my friend. We know the good guys from the bad guys by what they do. If not, then you could not discern the heroes from the villains when you watch a movie or turn on the news. 1 John 3 says he that does righteousness is righteous. It also says he that does not righteousness is not of God. If you do not forgive, then your Heavenly Father will not forgive you. If we do not continue in His goodness we will be cut off just like the Jews.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Actually yes. I have been called worse at TOL (Theology Online). But I rejoice at such times (Because of what Jesus had once said on this matter), though.
You rejoice at such times when you are called worse, but whine and cry and moan when someone calls you bro??????????
 
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jn4mw

Guest
I have no personal position on OSAS nor do I care to. I believe that we are sinners we will always sin because we are born into sin. You have commented multiple times on the fact that Adam and Eve sinned once and were thrown from grace. I believe that the reason this sin resulted in being cast out was because they are the only humans who were not born into sin. They had a choice of their destiny and they chose wrong. Since that day we will all be sinners no matter if we never sinned. For example, and many will disagree with me, a baby who dies I believe is a sinner, I also believe that God allows them to go to heaven since they didn't have the opportunity in life to turn to God. We were born that way and therefore we need the grace of God and the sacrifice of Jesus if we ever hope to be with God. I think Jesus continues to cover our sins once we have accepted him as our savior. I don't believe that it is a black and white topic. I think it lies in the heart of each individual, while I personally believe we are all destined to continue sinning, we are no longer defined by that term since we are now children of God. I believe that there are people who say they are christians that they are saved but continue in sin and are not truly saved. I believe that God changes our hearts as we seek Him and that as we grow in Him we will turn more and more from sin. I believe God judges our hearts and therefore he is the only one who can say that I am saved or you are. We can not say wether another person is with any certainty since we do not know their heart for God. I understand your viewpoint that God says things like go and sin no more and therefore we are to not sin at all. But in these verses if you look at the surrounding text I believe it applies to a situation not an overall command to humanity to never sin again. I believe that by saying we have the power (even if it is since we now have Jesus in our lives) to not sin ever again is belittling the sacrifice that Jesus made on the cross. We are weak, we are sinners, we will always be, Jesus just chose to cover us with his love and accept us as children of God, under his sacrifice. That is love that is beyond my comprehension. I think we are all blessed beyond belief to know God and to understand that gift, no matter the differences we may have.

In my experience, which is limited since I am young, when I fail God I feel terrible I don't feel worthy of the grace that he provides. My mind has a hard time wrapping around the whole concept because I am not worthy and I feel the need to not approach God because I am not good enough, but that is saying that his sacrifice is not enough for me, that I require more, that I can do it on my own, because I want to earn that love. It is something that I have come to accept that I can not do anything to earn this gift of love and that it is best to accept it for what it is and to seek him and try my very best to be pleasing to him, knowing that I will fail at some point, I am so glad that God has never abandoned me, and that he is always there to pick me up and continue to love me despite my complete unworthiness. That experience is soo humbling to me, and I think that by saying that we can choose to sin no more, one that would be deceiving ourselves and two would be denying ourselves that experience.

I am sure that it seems I am attacking you but that is truly not my intent. I simply hope to convey my opinion on the matter. I hope that you can hear what I say and really consider it, as I have considered what you have to say. God Bless. :)
 

Radius

Senior Member
Feb 11, 2013
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There are two different types of sin the Bible talks about. Sins that lead unto death and sins that do not lead unto death. Paul makes it very clear that those who commit murder, hate, theft, lying, stealing, lusting, and getting drunk, etc. will not inherit the Kingdom of God. That is the goal post. We also cannot live for ourselves and make ourselves our own Lord's either. For no man can lay any other foundation but Jesus Christ. So the foundation (i.e. the grass and the dirt in that picture) has to be Jesus Christ. If one sins willingly against God and it is dominating their life, they aproving that their foundation is not Jesus Christ but it is their own life. But Jesus Christ said you cannot serve two masters. Jesus said narrow is the way that leads unto life and few be there that find it. OSAS is the not the narrow gate belief. It is the wide gate belief that everyone in Christiandom holds to these days because you can get away with serving God and yourself (including their own sin).
So in other words, the balancing scales come out and you get measured up to see if you were good enough to get into heaven. Yes you believe Christ died for you and you cried out for help and salvation, but alas! "YOU" just weren't good enough inthe end. Christ's blood was INSUFFICIENT.

No.