People think you have to keep grace on a leash

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Senior Member
Feb 11, 2013
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Something I read that is pretty applicable:

"The Christian can persist in some known sin, though not the sin of total unbelief or willful apostasy; a true Christian will not commit that kind of sin. If he deliberately continues to practice ungodliness in life or doctrine, however, refusing to repent, not even responding to God’s chastening discipline (note Hebrews 12:5-11), then the only recourse of the Lord may be to send physical death, although not eternal spiritual death, for such a person is delivered “to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus” (1 Corinthians 5:5).
This is a fearful prospect even for the believer, and should be a sober warning against persistence in any known sin. “He shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire” (1 Corinthians 3:15)."
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
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Something I read that is pretty applicable:

"The Christian can persist in some known sin, though not the sin of total unbelief or willful apostasy; a true Christian will not commit that kind of sin. If he deliberately continues to practice ungodliness in life or doctrine, however, refusing to repent, not even responding to God’s chastening discipline (note Hebrews 12:5-11), then the only recourse of the Lord may be to send physical death, although not eternal spiritual death, for such a person is delivered “to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus” (1 Corinthians 5:5).
This is a fearful prospect even for the believer, and should be a sober warning against persistence in any known sin. “He shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire” (1 Corinthians 3:15)."
AMEN and rather simple at the end of the day......be not removed from the simplicity that is in Christ for sure........I agree totally........!
 
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I would venture to say that the majority of people on this thread would agree with your belief. Here is what I understand you are trying to say. If our heart is for God and we wish to keep from sinning, when we fail and we request forgiveness for our sins, we will be forgiven and covered by the grace of God.
Well, first, this is not my first time debating OSAS. I have been discussing this topic for many many years now with people in person, and on another forum (Where so called believers pretty much called me the devil amongst other things). Second, not everyone believes what you proposing here, either. Many who are OSAS proponents here at CC (Christian Chat) believe they can sin and still be saved (Even though they will not come right out and say that). In other words, they are very subtle about it. What some of them will say is that do not believe any sin can separate them from the love of God or His salvation. Yes, they will say to you that they are not living in extreme levels of sin and or seek to be ultra sinful or anything, but they will tell you that they do have some sin in their life. They will tell you that it is impossible to stop sinning and be perfect (Even though Jesus told us to be perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect). According to some here, sin does not have to be taken to God whereby they would seek his forgiveness because they believe all future sin is forgiven them. So there is no real need to ask forgiveness for remaining right with God spiritually. Confession for them is only to restore fellowship and not salvation. So they can just still have their small little pet sins and also serve God (With their reward in Heaven guaranteed). It's a license to sin and they got their free get out of Hell card.

If this is your point I completely agree with you. Your example of an alcoholic is a perfect one.
Yes, an alcoholic who looks to recover from alcoholism will not indulge in alcohol again once he has overcome his addiction. It is not different with the believer. A believer can also overcome their bad habits of commiting sin. Yes, it is not an overnight process for some. But it is still possible for a believer to stop sinning. Why do you think Scripture says that they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts? Why do you think Scripture says without holiness no man shall see the Lord? Why do you think Peter warns us against those false prophets who cannot cease from sin? In other words, Peter is letting us know there are false prophets and the way we can know about them is by what they do. Which is.... they do not cease from sin (See 2 Peter 2:1, 14).

When reading your past posts it was difficult to discern what you believe. The way I interpreted it was that you believe that once you are saved you can not sin anymore because the sacrifice of Jesus has already been used on you, or something to that effect. It would appear then that you were suggesting that you have been without sin. Although you still did not answer the question directly I assume based on your response that you do continue to fail God, but repent when you do and seek forgiveness. I acknowledge that there is the possibility that I was the only one who read it this way. I obviously misunderstood your meaning.
Jesus died for the sins of the entire world. Does that mean everyone is forgiven? No, of course not. That woud be silly. A person has to repent of their sins and accept Jesus Christ as their Savior. But it doesn't stop there. Christ is not a one time event for us. Christ is a relationship whereby we walk with Him; And sin (Like it always has done before) can separate a person and God. So when a person has Jesus Christ, and they sin, they can pray to the Lord Jesus and ask Him to have mercy on their sin with the promise that they will strive to never do that sin again. Then God extends grace to them for their sorrow. Not a worldly sorrow but a Godly sorrow over their sin. See, today, everyone treats sin like it is some kind of fluffly kitten that is not all that big of a deal. But sin put Jesus Christ on the cross. So sin is not to be taken lightly (Like so many in the church today treats it).

But the impression I am getting by what you said make me believe that you hold to the view that future sin is forgiven. Is that correct?

I think that by saying what you believe to be true rather than trying to defeat another point of view is the best way to go with the least possibility of misunderstanding. I think everyone is essentially arguing the same thing, you were simply trying to discredit OSAS while others felt you were proclaiming a life of perfection after being saved. There are many aspects of God and different people will feel a connection with different aspects. I connect more with Gods love and grace, you seem to connect more with following his rules. It doesn't mean that I believe I can sin as I please and then just expect to earn my way into heaven since I have acknowledged God, and it doesn't mean that you don't respect and accept his love and grace.

If you disagree with my interpretation of what you are saying I would like to hear more of what you believe rather than what is wrong with OSAS.
What I believe is best defined by me pointing out what is wrong with OSAS. Why? Because today, if I do not tell them what true grace is like, then they are going to assume it is OSAS grace when that is not the type of grace that is taught in the Bible.
 
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Yes, use the Old Covenant as a standard of the New Covenant. You simply can't say He will forget knowing us after He has known us in the new birth. I'm done with your subtle Scripture twisting...very dangerous...

Titus 3:10-11
10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.
As I said. 1 John 2:3-5 equates knowing God with keeping His Commandments. Hebrews 10:26 says, "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins," And Hebrews 10:38 says, "Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him." In Romans 11:22 we are told to continue in his goodness or we too could be cut off like the Jews. Meaning, God wil not have pleasure in the believer if they draw back and they will be cut off if they do not continue in his righteousness. Not having pleasure in the believer and being cut off suggests he is no longer in fellowship with the believer anymore and he will refuse to acknowledge that they have done good in the past because you are now being evil currently. See, Ezekiel 18 is not a law. It is a truth about how God operates in regards to sin and righteousness. This truth is evident when looking at even the passages in the New Testament, too.
 
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Think on this, oh most noble Jason...

Rom 5:20,21

20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Now in the Amplified it says...

20 But then Law came in, [only] to expand and increase the trespass [making it more apparent and exciting opposition]. But where sin increased and abounded, grace (God’s unmerited favor) has surpassed it and increased the more and superabounded,
21 So that, [just] as sin has reigned in death, [so] grace (His unearned and undeserved favor) might reign also through righteousness (right standing with God) which issues in eternal life through Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One) our Lord.

Jason, you believe that the law was giving that we might know how to live our life, but it was given to expand the trespass, so that grace might increase and abound to surpass the law and reign through a right standing with God that we have by faith, which involves all issues of eternal life in Jesus Christ.
Romans 5:20 is best understood when you read Romans 7:7-25; And when you pay special close attention to verse 13.

Also, Romans 5:20 CEV (Contemporary English Version) clears up any misunderstanding you might have about it, too.

For it says,

"The Law came, so that the full power of sin could be seen. Yet where sin was powerful, God’s kindness was even more powerful." (Romans 5:20 CEV).

In other words, the Law was not added so as to increase sin, but to make man aware of his own sinfulness. In other words, it's like turning a light on the room and seeing cockroaches scatter. The Law was a way of showing man's own sinfulness or darkness so as to get him to realize his need for a Savior. Because well... the world was already plenty sinful enough long before the Law of Moses. For God had once destroyed the world with a global flood because of sin (Saving only Noah and his family). For why would God increase that which would He despises and or increase that which would lead Him to bring Judgment upon man? He wouldn't. The Law merely appeared to make the trespass abound or appear exceedingly sinful from man's perspective. This is why Paul says in Romans 7:13 says,

"Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13).
 
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Galatians 3 says the Law was added because of transgression. It also says the Law was a schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ. What does that mean? Well, God added the Law because people were getting more sinful. Hence, why Galatians says the Law was added because of transgression. Also, the Law was a schoolmaster or teacher to bring us unto Christ because it points out man's need for a Savior. For if you ask someone on the street if they lust after women, or have hate in their heart, or if they ever stolen or lied; You are showing them that they will face God's Judgment because of their sin and that they are lost, whereby they would need a Savior. For if they repent of their sins and accept Jesus Christ as their Savior by faith, they are then forgiven of those sins that they have committed in the past.
 
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Jason doesn't this verse throw a huge monkey wrench in your teachings?

Matthew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, "All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men."
Jesus is not so much concerned with giving us a detailed exhaustive account of every type of sin here. He is primarily speaking of the sin of blasphemy. For if he were to mention other sins that could not be forgiven it would detract from the point he was trying to make. Besides, a person can come back from the dead after committing suicide and repent; And Peter did deny the Lord three times (Even though Peter did not have the Holy Ghost yet).
 
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Think on this, oh most noble Jason...

Rom 5:20,21

20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Now in the Amplified it says...

20 But then Law came in, [only] to expand and increase the trespass [making it more apparent and exciting opposition]. But where sin increased and abounded, grace (God’s unmerited favor) has surpassed it and increased the more and superabounded,
21 So that, [just] as sin has reigned in death, [so] grace (His unearned and undeserved favor) might reign also through righteousness (right standing with God) which issues in eternal life through Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One) our Lord.

Jason, you believe that the law was giving that we might know how to live our life, but it was given to expand the trespass, so that grace might increase and abound to surpass the law and reign through a right standing with God that we have by faith, which involves all issues of eternal life in Jesus Christ.
Harrison says this about Romans 5:20:

The transgression might increase - He is not saying that God introduced the Law because He wanted to make us sin more, but that He wanted us to be more aware of our sins and the fact that we had a totally sinful nature. (See more detailed discussion of this function of the law below) Notice that Paul does not say transgressions (plural) but transgression (singular), which is a reference to the sin of Adam. How do we arrive at that conclusion? Notice that six times in Romans 5 Paul uses transgressionand in each use it is in the singular and in each context, transgression refers to the sin of Adam. Observe the uses and see if you do not agree...

But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.

Romans 5:16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.

Romans 5:17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

Romans 5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.


And John Piper explains the transgression as follows...

I take it to mean that one crucial function of the law is to turn our original sin into actual transgressions of specific commandments. First, we are guilty in Adam and sinful by nature, and then the Law confronts us with the specific will of God: "Don't steal. Don't lie. Don't covet." And the effect is that it turns sinful nature into specific sinful acts of transgression. One writer said it well: the Law makes little Adams out of us all. ("The law has the function of turning those it addresses into 'their own Adam.'" Douglas Moo, The Epistle to the Romans)

So what was once one transgression in which we all shared by virtue of the union with Adam that God ordained for all humanity, has now, because of the Law, become millions upon millions of specific transgressions, as verse 16b said, The free gift arose from many transgressions. So the Law of Moses was given to increase the transgression of Adam into millions of specific acts of transgression in all of us who resist submitting to the Law of God because of our rebellious nature."


Side Note:

Oh, and no, and I am not a Calvinist. I merely agree with what John Piper has said on Romans 5:20.

 
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1. You should be ashamed of yourself. May the Lord temporarily stop your pushing of such evil here to show you otherwise.
I should be ashames of myself? I am not the one excusing my sin and telling others it is ok to "mess up" from time to time, That these sins are really not bad sins, at least we are not murderers. that is you my friend, your the one who needs to be ashamed. Mocking the grace of God, and claiming not all sin is equal. We are ok because we do not do these pet sins, Your the one watering down the law of God to make yourself feel better about yourself. not me.

A believer striving to do what is right always and stumbling on occasion (Not intending or wanting to sin) is not an excuse for sin. Does the drunk who stumbles on his road to recovery in the wrong? Is the person who stumbles on their road to losing a bunch of weight in the wrong? I say thee nay. A person who is striving to do what is right is not in the wrong.
See here you go excusing your sin. You refuse to acknowledge even one sin is so deplorable to God. it deserves Gods full wrath. Your no better than the drunk. You have your own sins to deal with. Give them to God and stop excusing them

OSAS is the evil teaching that gives a person an excuse to sin because you don't ever have to worry about sin. For in OSAS: You can sin and still be saved. No sin can truly separate you from God and His salvation. In other words, it's like telling a child that they shouldn't eat candy but if they do, there is no actual consequences (That will truly matter) in doing so.
If we can not be saved while we are still sinners, then no one will get to heaven.

OSAS does not give us an excuse to sin or a fear of not sinning, OSAS understand the TRUE love of God. and for us, It is MUCH harder to hurt one who loves you unconditionally, then someone who does not care about you and has you on this ice (IE, your on this ice with God, instead of not wanting to grieve a God who loves you as a parent.

Stop speaking of things you do not understand.


2. You can't repent of future sin. That doesn't make any sense. You can only confess of past sins. Nowhere does the Bible teach that we are forgiven of future sin. Nowhere did the apostles teach such a thing. One has to take the word "all" and make it say that. No verse specifically says future sin is forgiven.
Oh I can't?

I can't tell God I KNOW AND UNDERSTAND that when I love myself more than others that is sin? KNOWING in the future I will fail to do this?


Again you just proved you are lacking in knowledge, repent is not get out of jail free card. It is an acknowledgement and trust in what God says, and not what men think.

When are you going to repent Jason?



3. I actually do not believe you when you say that one who practices sin does not know God.
Thats ok. You just called John a liar. not me. You just admitted you do not believe the apostle John.

1 John 3: . [SUP]6 [/SUP]Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. [SUP]8 [/SUP]He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.


You believe a person can be out of fellowship with God and still be saved. Which is basically saying they can sin and still be saved. You also don't believe any sin can separate a person from the love of God. You believe physical death is the result for sin and not spiritual death for the believer. Yet it is different somehow for the unbeliever. As if God is a respecter of persons.

No I am saying what God says, When I am out of fellowship. I am still a son, A son under chasticement, but a son still the same, who has grieved his father and holy spirit.

You on the other hand, must excuse your sin, because you claim your sin is not filthy enough. You better than others, when in reality, when we place you next to the law. Your just as guilty.

You refuse to admit your total guilt, thus you have refused to repent.

I know my guilt.
 
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No, you are seriously twisting around or misreading what I had said. I said, quote...
"
We... never make an excuse for sin (Just like Jesus)."

In other words, I said we as believers do not make excuses for sin and then I said "Just like Jesus", meaning Jesus did not make an excuse for sin, either.


But you do make an excuse, "sorry God I messed up" I wont do it again, then go do it again, over and over. that is excusing sin.



Jesus was perfect not because of what He did but because of WHO He was. Jesus was God Almighty in the flesh.

Jesus was perfect because of what he did, he was tempted in all areas. you can not tempt anyone who can not sin, thats impossible.

Yet again you prove you do not know who jesus is or what he did.


Then Jesus lied to us when He tells us to be ye perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect. The Scriptures have lied to us when they say to be ye Holy as God is Holy. So no.
Perfect means mature, it does not mean sinless in all cases.

WHy would God tell you to be sinless, when that is impossible?




Jesus said we cannot serve two kingdoms. For we will hate the one and love the other. In other words, a believer cannot abide in God and have His Works flowing within their life and yet also be thinking they can sin and still be saved, too.
then why do you think your stuff don't think and you can sin and still be saved as long as you repent of your deemed gross sins?




So not saying sorry to people when you wronged them works how again? Can Rick push Steve down the stairs and not say he is sorry and not expect Steve to freak out and call the police the next time he sees him? What you propose is madness and goes against all that we know is good and what is taught in Scripture as good. The ignoring of sin within OSAS (Thinking it is forgiven is not going to cut it) because the man who cried out to God to have mercy on him in being a sinner was more justified than the one who did not do so (Luke 18:9-14).
lol, I forgave my babies before they said sorry, and whether they said it or not. That is what a parent does.

Thank you for proving you want God, who claims to be our abba, to be less of an abba then he demands and wants our earthly parents to be.
 
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The problem is OSAS and it's beliefs itself is not consistent with what you are saying here. On one side, OSAS proponents will say they are for God's goodness and holiness and that a believer will not habitually sin, but on the other side of OSAS they teach that a believer can sin and still be saved, a believer cannot die spiritually, future sin is forgiven them, they can be out of fellowship with God and still be saved, and that no believer can obey all of God's Commands or stop sinning. All of which runs contrary to Scripture.
see your wrong on all accounts.

a person who trust God acknowledges he will still sin.

it is hugely different to acknowledge to God I know I will fail you in the future, I don;t want to. but i am not to proud to admit I will fail. show me my failures.

then to say I can sin all I want it does not matter.

your the one excusing sin (I can sin and as long as I say I am sorry, i am ok. )
 
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And neither do people who are saved.

Do you even actually know what saved means? It means it is the work of GOD...not YOU or anyone else!!!
lol. He does not get it. Saved means just that, Saved, If your not saved from Gods wrath, your not saved period. If your salvation can be lost. it is not salvation, it is.. To be honest, I don;t know what you would call it. It certainly is not being saved,
 
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wow ten pages, I will stop there.. Alot of arguing I see. And jason is still stuck in his pride. I am not sure his pride can be broken people.
 

BradC

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Jul 13, 2013
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Jason. you seem to favor commentaries and translations that do not mention the workings of the grace of God in these passages. You have a fixation that strays away from grace and the effectual working of grace in the believer's life in relationship to sin and troubles one may have in the flesh. In (Rom 5:13) sin was in the world and death by sin, but sin was not imputed where there was no law to reveal it. The law has come by Moses to reveal transgressions, trespasses and sin, but grace and truth has come by Jesus Christ to reveal mercy and not judgment. ALL sin has received a just penalty and judgment being imputed to Christ on the cross, crucified and was buried, never to be remembered anymore.

God was in his Son not imputing sins and trespasses unto the world because Christ was the end of the law unto righteousness (Rom 10:4), the very means used to impute sin. When the sin of the world was imputed on the body of Christ on the tree, the law had no place to impute sin, for Christ fulfilled the law and did away with its purpose and ministration of condemnation by excelling it with greater glory (2 Cor 3:6-18) and that greater glory came by grace and truth through the Holy Spirit that was given to indwell us.
 

gb9

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Jan 18, 2011
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[/COLOR]But you do make an excuse, "sorry God I messed up" I wont do it again, then go do it again, over and over. that is excusing sin.




Jesus was perfect because of what he did, he was tempted in all areas. you can not tempt anyone who can not sin, thats impossible.

Yet again you prove you do not know who jesus is or what he did.



Perfect means mature, it does not mean sinless in all cases.

WHy would God tell you to be sinless, when that is impossible?






then why do you think your stuff don't think and you can sin and still be saved as long as you repent of your deemed gross sins?






lol, I forgave my babies before they said sorry, and whether they said it or not. That is what a parent does.

Thank you for proving you want God, who claims to be our abba, to be less of an abba then he demands and wants our earthly parents to be.


good post. him and other legalists think like this: yes I am perfect except when I make a unintended mistake. they refuse to see that that disqualifies them from perfection, which is God's standard. the perfect Lamb of God is where my hope is, not in make-it-up-as you go theology.
 
V

Viligant_Warrior

Guest
good post. him and other legalists think like this: yes I am perfect except when I make a unintended mistake. they refuse to see that that disqualifies them from perfection, which is God's standard. the perfect Lamb of God is where my hope is, not in make-it-up-as you go theology.
Once knew a Nazarene Sunday school teacher whom I heard say, "I haven't sinned in 21 years," using this rationale.

I moved before the lightning struck.

wow ten pages, I will stop there.. Alot of arguing I see. And jason is still stuck in his pride. I am not sure his pride can be broken people.
I gave up trying. He is completely sold out to a doctrine instead of being sold out completely to Jesus Christ.

 
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good post. him and other legalists think like this: yes I am perfect except when I make a unintended mistake. they refuse to see that that disqualifies them from perfection, which is God's standard. the perfect Lamb of God is where my hope is, not in make-it-up-as you go theology.

They refuse to acknowledge they faith is not in God. it is in their ability to either not sin, or to make sure they repent of every sin.

Like the pharisees, they did not commit the gross sins, they deemed as horrific. Thus they could not see their own horrific sin they committed on a daily basis, and just in case they did mess up. they always had the priest they could confess too.

when your blind in pride and legalism, you can't see the sin in your own life. all you can do is judge the sin in everyone elses life, and thank God your not like the sinner.
 
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Once knew a Nazarene Sunday school teacher whom I heard say, "I haven't sinned in 21 years," using this rationale.

I moved before the lightning struck.

I gave up trying. He is completely sold out to a doctrine instead of being sold out completely to Jesus Christ.
Did he yell, "repent you sinner" as you was running out the door?