People think you have to keep grace on a leash

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Radius

Senior Member
Feb 11, 2013
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16 If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that.17 All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.

Clearly there are 2 types of sin (at least). Your error is that you equate keeping the law with being sinless.
not spiritual death--death of the body.
 
Jul 22, 2014
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I have no personal position on OSAS nor do I care to. I believe that we are sinners we will always sin because we are born into sin. You have commented multiple times on the fact that Adam and Eve sinned once and were thrown from grace. I believe that the reason this sin resulted in being cast out was because they are the only humans who were not born into sin. They had a choice of their destiny and they chose wrong. Since that day we will all be sinners no matter if we never sinned. For example, and many will disagree with me, a baby who dies I believe is a sinner, I also believe that God allows them to go to heaven since they didn't have the opportunity in life to turn to God. We were born that way and therefore we need the grace of God and the sacrifice of Jesus if we ever hope to be with God. I think Jesus continues to cover our sins once we have accepted him as our savior. I don't believe that it is a black and white topic. I think it lies in the heart of each individual, while I personally believe we are all destined to continue sinning, we are no longer defined by that term since we are now children of God. I believe that there are people who say they are christians that they are saved but continue in sin and are not truly saved. I believe that God changes our hearts as we seek Him and that as we grow in Him we will turn more and more from sin. I believe God judges our hearts and therefore he is the only one who can say that I am saved or you are. We can not say wether another person is with any certainty since we do not know their heart for God. I understand your viewpoint that God says things like go and sin no more and therefore we are to not sin at all. But in these verses if you look at the surrounding text I believe it applies to a situation not an overall command to humanity to never sin again. I believe that by saying we have the power (even if it is since we now have Jesus in our lives) to not sin ever again is belittling the sacrifice that Jesus made on the cross. We are weak, we are sinners, we will always be, Jesus just chose to cover us with his love and accept us as children of God, under his sacrifice. That is love that is beyond my comprehension. I think we are all blessed beyond belief to know God and to understand that gift, no matter the differences we may have.

In my experience, which is limited since I am young, when I fail God I feel terrible I don't feel worthy of the grace that he provides. My mind has a hard time wrapping around the whole concept because I am not worthy and I feel the need to not approach God because I am not good enough, but that is saying that his sacrifice is not enough for me, that I require more, that I can do it on my own, because I want to earn that love. It is something that I have come to accept that I can not do anything to earn this gift of love and that it is best to accept it for what it is and to seek him and try my very best to be pleasing to him, knowing that I will fail at some point, I am so glad that God has never abandoned me, and that he is always there to pick me up and continue to love me despite my complete unworthiness. That experience is soo humbling to me, and I think that by saying that we can choose to sin no more, one that would be deceiving ourselves and two would be denying ourselves that experience.

I am sure that it seems I am attacking you but that is truly not my intent. I simply hope to convey my opinion on the matter. I hope that you can hear what I say and really consider it, as I have considered what you have to say. God Bless.
First, why was the Tax Collector more justifed than the Pharisee? It was because he humbled himself before God. See, many (Not all) OSAS proponents do not believe you have to confess your sins to be right with God as per 1 John 2:1 and 1 John 1:9. Many of them do not believe that you have to uphold what is good and true to be right with God.

Second, you said you do not care to have a personal position in regards to OSAS. Yet, the Bible does speaks out against such a thing, though. God's Word tells us to study to show ourselves approved unto God (2 Timothy 2:15 KJV). The Spirit is supposed to guide us into all truth. Refusing to be guided by the Spirit into an important truth within the Scriptures would mean you don't want to grow in the Lord and be able to be teachable by Him. Yet, God puts things within His Word for us to learn, though.

Third, how do you know the good guys from the bad guys when you watch a movie or turn on the news? Is it because of some belief alone that they have? Or is it based on what they do? Granted, I am not suggesting we are saved by works, but my point is that Jesus said we will know false prophets by their fruits. Meaning, if someone is doing evil, they are a bad guy and not a good guy. This is Morality 101.
 

Delivery

Senior Member
Jul 14, 2013
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God will forget the righteous deeds of those who turn away from their righteousness and it will be as if their previous righteousness was no more (or non existent).

Meaning, he will act like He no longer knows a believer if they chooses to do evil again.

But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. (Ezekiel 18:24).

For keeping God's commands is tied to knowing God.

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. (1 John 2:3-5).

This line of thinking is also expressed in 2 Chronicles 24:20, too. For God had forsaken those who had forsaken Him when they transgressed His Commandments.

And the Spirit of God came upon Zechariah the son of Jehoiada the priest, which stood above the people, and said unto them, Thus saith God, Why transgress ye the commandments of the LORD, that ye cannot prosper? because ye have forsaken the LORD, he hath also forsaken you.

Iin other words, when one is forsaken by God, that means He no longer knows them.
What is a righteous deed? The bible says,

The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
[SUP]3[/SUP] They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy:
[SUP]10[/SUP] As it is written,There is none righteous, no, not one:
[SUP]20[/SUP] For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.
[SUP]23[/SUP] For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

So, since nobody is righteous, then who are the people that the bible calls righteous? And how does one become righteous? It seems pretty clear to me. since all are sinners, then the only ones who are not sinners, the ones who are righteous are those who believe in Jesus. Why? Because since everybody is an unrighteous sinner, then that means that the only way to become righteous is have all your sins forgiven and righteousness imputed upon you by Faith. And the only way that can happen is to become born of God by believing in Jesus. Once you do this you are no longer a sinner, you are righteous because all your sins are forgiven.

[SUP]9[/SUP] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

In those verses you quoted from first John it is necessary to understand what he means by "keeping His commandments. A lot of people, perhaps you for instance, interpret that to mean the 10 commandments or the laws and rules. But in actuality the only commandments it's talking about is to believe in Jesus and to love one another.

[SUP]23[/SUP] And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

The old testament verses that you quoted don't apply in the same way as they did in the old testament. Sin separates us from God and all men are sinners, so of course people are going to be forsaken by God because of sin, That is, up until the time of Jesus. Jesus reconciles us to God by suffering and dying and being punished for our sins so that we wouldn't have to be. Once we believe in Jesus, our sins are wiped out, and they no longer cause us to be separated from God.

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.


Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Tit 3:7
That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

 
Jul 22, 2014
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not spiritual death--death of the body.
Nowhere in the 1st epistle of John does he make the contrast with physical death. Thru out the entire epistle he talks about spiritual life, light, and eternal life, that is contrasted to spiritual death and darkness. Only in 1 John 3:15, John alludes to physical death when he mentions a murderer. But this passage does not support OSAS but is clearly against it because John says he that is a murderer does not have eternal life abiding within them (That is contrasted to that person who hates their brother).
 
Sep 6, 2014
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bereanbeacon.org
A prophet you are not...and that is under the banner of standing for the truth not whining about someone calling you bro.
Amen and no doubt,
With J it's kinda like a child throwing stones at another child's house down the street minding his own business......
The dad comes out and says "hey what do you think your doing?" then the child who hurled stones runs home to his mommy and says that mean man down the street yelled at me and other children were throwing rocks at me too. Then his mommy says poor J you stay away from that mean man and his child, want a cookie? :rolleyes:
 
Last edited:
Jul 22, 2014
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What is a righteous deed? The bible says,

The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
[SUP]3[/SUP] They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy:
[SUP]10[/SUP] As it is written,There is none righteous, no, not one:
[SUP]20[/SUP] For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.
[SUP]23[/SUP] For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

So, since nobody is righteous, then who are the people that the bible calls righteous? And how does one become righteous? It seems pretty clear to me. since all are sinners, then the only ones who are not sinners, the ones who are righteous are those who believe in Jesus. Why? Because since everybody is an unrighteous sinner, then that means that the only way to become righteous is have all your sins forgiven and righteousness imputed upon you by Faith. And the only way that can happen is to become born of God by believing in Jesus. Once you do this you are no longer a sinner, you are righteous because all your sins are forgiven.

[SUP]9[/SUP] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

In those verses you quoted from first John it is necessary to understand what he means by "keeping His commandments. A lot of people, perhaps you for instance, interpret that to mean the 10 commandments or the laws and rules. But in actuality the only commandments it's talking about is to believe in Jesus and to love one another.

[SUP]23[/SUP] And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

The old testament verses that you quoted don't apply in the same way as they did in the old testament. Sin separates us from God and all men are sinners, so of course people are going to be forsaken by God because of sin, That is, up until the time of Jesus. Jesus reconciles us to God by suffering and dying and being punished for our sins so that we wouldn't have to be. Once we believe in Jesus, our sins are wiped out, and they no longer cause us to be separated from God.

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.


Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Tit 3:7
That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.


You obviously have not done a study on the word "righteous" if you believe that, my friend. Look at all the words in regards to this.

KJV Search Results for "righteous"
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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I don't believe most OSAS proponents because from experience most (Not all) on one hand will say one thing making you think they are for God's goodness and then on the other hand they say something that completely destroys that idea. Granted, I always try to give someone the benefit of the doubt. But if they appear to be against me arguing against one in upholding the Moral Law of love in the New Testament, or they are thinking they can sin a little and not repent of it, then that is a pretty good indication that they are not in service to God and His good ways according to God's Word and common basic Morality (That everyone knows about).
see what I mean?!?!
 
Jul 22, 2014
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Amen and no doubt,
With J it's kinda like a child throwing stones at another child's house down the street minding his own business......
The dad comes out and says "hey what do you think your doing?" then the child who hurled stones runs home to his mommy and says that mean man down the street yelled at me and other children where throwing rocks at me too. Then his mommy says poor J you stay away from that mean man and his child, want a cookie?
Again, we are not here to mock people. We are here to discuss the Scriptures. Let's please try and stay on topic.
 
Jul 22, 2014
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see what I mean?!?!
Pay very close attention. I said I will give someone the benefit of the doubt. However, in my experience and dealings with most (Not all) OSAS proponents for many years, I usually find they are not out to defend the Holiness of God and His righteousness within His Word. They are out for themselves because they think they cannot cease from sin and that it is normal for a believer to sin (When the Bible says no such thing).
 

jn4mw

Junior Member
Apr 6, 2015
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I believe wholeheartedly what God's Word says and I do not take it upon myself to inspect and dissect every branch of beliefs that come from Christianity. If it is true the Bible will support it. From my limited knowledge I believe parts of it are accurate. But that is beside the point. This conversation has become one dimensional. I was not discussing OSAS with you, yet it seems to be all you wish to discuss.

I believe actions can give insight into the heart, yet there are non-believers who can behave in much better ways than that of believers. We can't judge based on actions alone and I don't believe God does either.

Just out of curiosity do you claim to be without sin since accepting Jesus?
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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God will forget the righteous deeds of those who turn away from their righteousness and it will be as if their previous righteousness was no more (or non existent).

Meaning, he will act like He no longer knows a believer if they chooses to do evil again.

But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. (Ezekiel 18:24).

For keeping God's commands is tied to knowing God.

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. (1 John 2:3-5).

This line of thinking is also expressed in 2 Chronicles 24:20, too. For God had forsaken those who had forsaken Him when they transgressed His Commandments.

And the Spirit of God came upon Zechariah the son of Jehoiada the priest, which stood above the people, and said unto them, Thus saith God, Why transgress ye the commandments of the LORD, that ye cannot prosper? because ye have forsaken the LORD, he hath also forsaken you.

Iin other words, when one is forsaken by God, that means He no longer knows them.
Yes, use the Old Covenant as a standard of the New Covenant. You simply can't say He will forget knowing us after He has known us in the new birth. I'm done with your subtle Scripture twisting...very dangerous...

Titus 3:10-11
10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.
 
Jul 22, 2014
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I believe wholeheartedly what God's Word says and I do not take it upon myself to inspect and dissect every branch of beliefs that come from Christianity. If it is true the Bible will support it. From my limited knowledge I believe parts of it are accurate. But that is beside the point. This conversation has become one dimensional. I was not discussing OSAS with you, yet it seems to be all you wish to discuss.

I believe actions can give insight into the heart, yet there are non-believers who can behave in much better ways than that of believers. We can't judge based on actions alone and I don't believe God does either.
On judging: Paul says know ye not that ye shall judge angels? Jesus says judge not according to one's outward appearance but judge righteous judgment. The Scripture say have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

As for your point on actions giving us a glimpse of what is in the heart: Yes, this is very true. Actions or fruit (deeds) do give an indication into the heart. If you want to know the fruits of OSAS...

Just look at any real world example where you take away the consequences of something and look at how people will react. In other words, if there was no consequences anymore to people speeding on the highway, what do you think is going to happen? More people are going to speed on the highway. If man found a cure to weight loss, what is going to happen? More people are going to eat what used to be considered weight gaining foods.

Anyways, we know that Antinomianism (OSAS) in many cases tends to lead people into being enslaved to their sin and not set free from it. How so? Just check out these testimonies below.

Antinomianism Audio Testimonies:
Testimonies of former eternal security believers

Suicide & Antinomianism:
A tragic story of an OSAS believer.

A Pastor's Testimony on Antinomianism:
A testimony about OSAS by a Pastor's wife.

Hooked on Sin & Antinomianism:
Out Of Darkness | NO Eternal Security | Christian Testimony

In fact, Jesus said we will know false prophets by their fruit. George Sodini used to be the Poster Child for Eternal Security or OSAS. Yet, instead, he turned out to be a mass murderer in the end, though.

George Sodini - OSAS Proponent Health Club Mass Murderer.

Just out of curiosity do you claim to be without sin since accepting Jesus?
John says in 1 John 2:1 to sin not. Meaning you are not allowed to sin. But he says if you do sin, we have an advocate that we can go to named Jesus Christ. For if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Galatians 5:24 says that those that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts. Hebrews says without holiness no man shall see the Lord. 1 John 3 says he that does righteosness is righeous. Not your righteousness, but the righteousness of God that works in a believer. For God is the one who works within them. So it is not an issue if a believer has sinned on occasion or not, but it has to do with how they how they deal with sin. Does one not care about sin when it arises and just believes it is forgiven? Or does one fall humbly before God like the Tax Collector whereby he cries out to God to have mercy on what he has done? See, there is a difference between the alcoholic who stumbles on his road to recovery versus the alcoholic who still wants to remain as an alcholic.
 

jn4mw

Junior Member
Apr 6, 2015
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John says in 1 John 2:1 to sin not. Meaning you are not allowed to sin. But he says if you do sin, we have an advocate that we can go to named Jesus Christ. For if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Galatians 5:24 says that those that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts. Hebrews says without holiness no man shall see the Lord. 1 John 3 says he that does righteosness is righeous. Not your righteousness, but the righteousness of God that works in a believer. For God is the one who works within them. So it is not an issue if a believer has sinned on occasion or not, but it has to do with how they how they deal with sin. Does one not care about sin when it arises and just believes it is forgiven? Or does one fall humbly before God like the Tax Collector whereby he cries out to God to have mercy on what he has done? See, there is a difference between the alcoholic who stumbles on his road to recovery versus the alcoholic who still wants to remain as an alcholic.
I would venture to say that the majority of people on this thread would agree with your belief. Here is what I understand you are trying to say. If our heart is for God and we wish to keep from sinning, when we fail and we request forgiveness for our sins, we will be forgiven and covered by the grace of God. If this is your point I completely agree with you. Your example of an alcoholic is a perfect one. When reading your past posts it was difficult to discern what you believe. The way I interpreted it was that you believe that once you are saved you can not sin anymore because the sacrifice of Jesus has already been used on you, or something to that effect. It would appear then that you were suggesting that you have been without sin. Although you still did not answer the question directly I assume based on your response that you do continue to fail God, but repent when you do and seek forgiveness. I acknowledge that there is the possibility that I was the only one who read it this way. I obviously misunderstood your meaning. I think that by saying what you believe to be true rather than trying to defeat another point of view is the best way to go with the least possibility of misunderstanding. I think everyone is essentially arguing the same thing, you were simply trying to discredit OSAS while others felt you were proclaiming a life of perfection after being saved. There are many aspects of God and different people will feel a connection with different aspects. I connect more with Gods love and grace, you seem to connect more with following his rules. It doesn't mean that I believe I can sin as I please and then just expect to earn my way into heaven since I have acknowledged God, and it doesn't mean that you don't respect and accept his love and grace.

If you disagree with my interpretation of what you are saying I would like to hear more of what you believe rather than what is wrong with OSAS.
 

BradC

Senior Member
Jul 13, 2013
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You obviously have not done a study on the word "righteous" if you believe that, my friend. Look at all the words in regards to this.

KJV Search Results for "righteous"
Think on this, oh most noble Jason...

Rom 5:20,21

20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Now in the Amplified it says...

20 But then Law came in, [only] to expand and increase the trespass [making it more apparent and exciting opposition]. But where sin increased and abounded, grace (God’s unmerited favor) has surpassed it and increased the more and superabounded,
21 So that, [just] as sin has reigned in death, [so] grace (His unearned and undeserved favor) might reign also through righteousness (right standing with God) which issues in eternal life through Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One) our Lord.

Jason, you believe that the law was giving that we might know how to live our life, but it was given to expand the trespass, so that grace might increase and abound to surpass the law and reign through a right standing with God that we have by faith, which involves all issues of eternal life in Jesus Christ.
 

Radius

Senior Member
Feb 11, 2013
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Jason doesn't this verse throw a huge monkey wrench in your teachings?

Matthew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, "All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men."