Abortion question

[Hlyghst1]

As a Christian, I've always stood firmly against abortion as its always seemed a terrible act producing a terrible result. However, I've recently looked at it from a new perspective that I feel somewhat guilty for and would like some insight on. I still see the act as completely despicable but do not necessarily see the result in the same light. I cannot see a scenario where any of those children would not make it into heaven. Obviously for those living our lives here on earth, heaven is the ultimate goal. We're tested, tempted, endure amazing hardships, and at the end hope that we ended our lives on the best possible terms. Those children, it seems to me, received the ultimate goal without enduring any hardships but yet all the benefits that heaven has to offer. I cannot see our earthly lessons being a real advantage in heaven that those children would need to be happy in heaven. Obviously all souls in heaven are happy or content otherwise whats the point. If that is the case, aren't those children the lucky ones? Why would we continue to see the result as a bad thing?

 

[WolfGaming]

i could have been aborted all my mom's old friends said to abort me and saying she was to young but she didn't and here I am thank God my mother was a Christian God is amazing!!!

 

[ray_james]

Just so I can understand correctly, are you saying that maybe we shouldn't look at abortion as such a bad thing?
-ray

 

[Hlyghst1]

That is the question

 

[Ugly]

As a Christian, I've always stood firmly against abortion as its always seemed a terrible act producing a terrible result. However, I've recently looked at it from a new perspective that I feel somewhat guilty for and would like some insight on. I still see the act as completely despicable but do not necessarily see the result in the same light. I cannot see a scenario where any of those children would not make it into heaven. Obviously for those living our lives here on earth, heaven is the ultimate goal. We're tested, tempted, endure amazing hardships, and at the end hope that we ended our lives on the best possible terms. Those children, it seems to me, received the ultimate goal without enduring any hardships but yet all the benefits that heaven has to offer. I cannot see our earthly lessons being a real advantage in heaven that those children would need to be happy in heaven. Obviously all souls in heaven are happy or content otherwise whats the point. If that is the case, aren't those children the lucky ones? Why would we continue to see the result as a bad thing?

Other than committing murder (sin) against those who do not have a voice to get to decide if They want to live? Stealing their choice away from them. Often in the name of selfishness and to avoid personal consequences of a life a person chooses to live.

 

[Hlyghst1]

Murder aside as I completely agree with you there, Ive considered the issue of denying choice as well but it almost seems trivial. My choice was taken away, just in the opposite. I didn't have a choice in being born. Now that I am aware of what I'd be missing, I would not want my life taken from me but if it happened, I don't see an early heaven as a bad thing. Earth certainly has its good but I almost certainly would've chosen heaven. Am I so wrong for thinking that?

 

[ServantStrike]

Murder aside as I completely agree with you there, Ive considered the issue of denying choice as well but it almost seems trivial. My choice was taken away, just in the opposite. I didn't have a choice in being born. Now that I am aware of what I'd be missing, I would not want my life taken from me but if it happened, I don't see an early heaven as a bad thing. Earth certainly has its good but I almost certainly would've chosen heaven. Am I so wrong for thinking that?

And what would you have accomplished on earth if you went to heaven before you were even born?

Even a child that tragically passes away after only a few short years of life brings so much joy to so many that their very existence should be justified by that joy alone.

Young adults and adults are equally important in the world.


Early heaven means you never got to spend time helping, improving, being Christ like. It's a missed opportunity.

 

[Angela53510]

God gave us life on this earth for a purpose. Those innocents never get the chance to walk this earth, to meet Jesus and serve him. They do not have the chance to suffer, to be a witness, to grow in wisdom and character.

I would throw out that "aren't they lucky to have died before birth" idea as worthy only of someone that is extremely depressed, or someone who has no appreciation of life.

I cannot condone the murder of millions of unborn children on the basis of a bad theological concept, which would not hold up under Biblical scrutiny. It doesn't get much clearer than this!

"I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live," Deut. 30:19

 

[SoulWeaver]

Those children, it seems to me, received the ultimate goal without enduring any hardships but yet all the benefits that heaven has to offer.

Without enduring any hardship?
Hlyghst1, suffering a martyrdom death while yet in the womb, murdered by their own mothers! They might not be able to express rational thoughts yet but their souls do feel well what is going on... In many cases, these babies come out of the womb in pieces! Most women are unfortunately completely ignorant about what atrocity against humanity this is - nobody informs them until they get to the abortion table! Sorry for getting worked up - this is my button to push Sis. It's really not meant against you personally.
Suffering cannot be quantized and made into some sort of currency in this manner. So let us say that you have suffered 10 points on some man's imaginary scale, another person has suffered 25 because they had a divorce, some third person has supposedly suffered 395 because they have been in a concentration camp. So consecutively, you have suffered pretty much nothing. As you see, this is nothing but invalidation of others and lack of compassion and man's way of thinking... a burden is a burden and a bitterness is a bitterness and we have all tasted it

 

[ray_james]

Just so I can understand correctly, are you saying that maybe we shouldn't look at abortion as such a bad thing?
-ray

That is the question

Anything to do with abortion, the process and the result, is wrong and goes totally against God's Word. I don't think we should not lighten our view on abortion just because the child goes to Heaven when aborted.
-ray

 

[atwhatcost]

As a Christian, I've always stood firmly against abortion as its always seemed a terrible act producing a terrible result. However, I've recently looked at it from a new perspective that I feel somewhat guilty for and would like some insight on. I still see the act as completely despicable but do not necessarily see the result in the same light. I cannot see a scenario where any of those children would not make it into heaven. Obviously for those living our lives here on earth, heaven is the ultimate goal. We're tested, tempted, endure amazing hardships, and at the end hope that we ended our lives on the best possible terms. Those children, it seems to me, received the ultimate goal without enduring any hardships but yet all the benefits that heaven has to offer. I cannot see our earthly lessons being a real advantage in heaven that those children would need to be happy in heaven. Obviously all souls in heaven are happy or content otherwise whats the point. If that is the case, aren't those children the lucky ones? Why would we continue to see the result as a bad thing?

How many ways are there to heaven?

1. Don't get born.
2. Trust in Christ.

Got anymore?

Sorry, I don't believe anyone gets special compensation for age, gender, or education level. One way to God -- through trusting him. Do unborn babies trust God? I wouldn't know. I'm inclined to think some do and some don't just like the rest of us.

On the other hand, you think they have no pain? How do you think they are removed from the womb? It's not by enticing them with a bowl of ice cream. Being ripped out, possibly piece by piece, or, worse yet, having my head pulled out and then stabbed in the back of the neck isn't my idea of an easy life. Short, but not easy.

 

[Miri]

Isaiah 44:24 NKJV
[24] Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, And He who formed you from the womb: "I am the LORD, who makes all things, Who stretches out the heavens all alone, Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself;


Isaiah 46:3-4 NKJV
[3] "Listen to Me, O house of Jacob, And all the remnant of the house of Israel, Who have been upheld by Me from birth, Who have been carried from the womb: [4] Even to your old age, I am He, And even to gray hairs I will carry you! I have made, and I will bear; Even I will carry, and will deliver you.

Jeremiah 1:5 NKJV
[5] "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations."

All the above verses (and there are more) point to the fact that God knows each one of us even in the womb and has plans for us.

think of all those plans cut short due to abortion. Maybe one of those children had the cure for all cancer, maybe one of those
children was going to be a great evangelist and bring many to christ etc.

God is the life giver but satan brings about destruction and death. I honestly think each destruction of human life and potential in this way is brought about by satans lies he is the deceiver, he knows we are Gods special creation and will do anything he can to bring about our destruction. Don't forget there is a spiritual battle going on all around. He even attempted to bring about the death of Christ as a baby causing Joseph and Mary to flee.

If he can prevent us from being born then he will by bringing in deceptive ideas and planting thoughts temptations, etc. if that doesn't work he rages against us after birth. Satan is a roaring lion seeking who he may devour. But greater is HE that is in us, that he that is in the world, praise God.


Choose life both physical and spiritual


Deuteronomy 30:11-20 NKJV
[11] "For this commandment which I command you today is not too mysterious for you, nor is it far off. [12] It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will ascend into heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?' [13] Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?' [14] But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it. [15] "See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil, [16] in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the LORD your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess. [17] But if your heart turns away so that you do not hear, and are drawn away, and worship other gods and serve them, [18] I announce to you today that you shall surely perish; you shall not prolong your days in the land which you cross over the Jordan to go in and possess. [19] I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live; [20] that you may love the LORD your God, that you may obey His voice, and that you may cling to Him, for He is your life and the length of your days; and that you may dwell in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them."

 

[sassylady]

It is still murder. We are not God and have no right to determine if a baby lives or dies, regardless of the fact they go to Heaven. The end result is not the issue.

 

[Hlyghst1]

Thank you for all the responses, they are all thought provoking. From what I can gather though, it seems the answers are all centered around our wish or preference that those souls fulfill a destiny or accomplish something for the good of those living here on earth (or whom one day will be), but isn't that rather selfish on our part, even presumptuous to assume that they would prefer or should prefer an earthly service over a paradise which is entirely devoid of any troubles or worries? God is all-knowing and if he had truly given them a duty to fulfill on earth, Wouldnt it have been so? Despite our having free will, God does know what one will do before it is done and therefore it seems unlikely that God would have given those souls earthly duties knowing full well what was to be. I know God works in mysterious ways but there is "mysterious" and there is "MYSTERIOUS."

It's hard to imagine, if we truly believe that heaven is as perfect as we think it is, that anyone would rationally prefer to have first lived on earth to accomplish or fulfill a destiny, grow in character, suffer hardships or grow in wisdom. Is not that wisdom imparted upon them once in heaven (and if not, wouldnt it render them unequal amongst the other souls having more wisdom creating yet another undesirable set of human emotions)? Neither can I imagine that once up in heaven, they would be left with a feeling of regret, of missed opportunities or a sense if unfulfillment. Would not the glory of heaven far outweigh that yearning or feeling? After all, would they not be entirely fulfilled in heaven already? If the answer is in the affirmative, I have to assume that any argument we would make for missed opportunities or unfulfilled destinies here on earth is a product of our own selfishness, that they share in this journey rather than be rewarded with heaven. I just don't feel they owe us any sort of service, even if only to provide comfort to others. Can we really justify the suffering of an innocent child in a place like Somalia, for example, purely for the comfort of others? I would like to think comfort in such situations can be obtained at less a cost.

Lastly, I feel the real victims are those mothers whom having made a horrible decision will have to live with the consequences of that decision for the rest of their days. They, will not likely occupy heaven.

 

[MadParrotWoman]

In abortion there are no winners. I don't believe the "surgeon" or staff right down to the receptionist get out completely unscathed, the mother suffers and the child....

Read the book "Unplanned" by Abby Johnson, it's an eye opener. God bless you.

 

[santuzza]

This is a disturbing thread to me. To think that a baby in the womb is better off because s/he did not experience suffering on earth is a chilling thought. It seems like someone is trying to justify murder.

Yes, the baby would experience suffering and pain in her/his life, but think of the joy and love as well. This baby would also be denied hearing those great words we all long to hear, "Well done, thou good and faithful servant." What could be more joyous than hearing those words?! Yes, I long for the day to hear them, and to deny that opportunity to a baby is, in my opinion, unconscionable.

 

[Channa]

So... why shouldn't we murder each other, so we can go faster to heaven?
Because we have a lifegoal! We can't give up on this earth!

Also: We have to love our neighbours like ourselves.
The baby is the neighbour; we're not loving while we're murding. Murding is not kind
So I think it's clear; abortion isn't the way.

 

[ember]

As a Christian, I've always stood firmly against abortion as its always seemed a terrible act producing a terrible result. However, I've recently looked at it from a new perspective that I feel somewhat guilty for and would like some insight on. I still see the act as completely despicable but do not necessarily see the result in the same light. I cannot see a scenario where any of those children would not make it into heaven. Obviously for those living our lives here on earth, heaven is the ultimate goal. We're tested, tempted, endure amazing hardships, and at the end hope that we ended our lives on the best possible terms. Those children, it seems to me, received the ultimate goal without enduring any hardships but yet all the benefits that heaven has to offer. I cannot see our earthly lessons being a real advantage in heaven that those children would need to be happy in heaven. Obviously all souls in heaven are happy or content otherwise whats the point. If that is the case, aren't those children the lucky ones? Why would we continue to see the result as a bad thing?

you know, I'm sorry, but this sort of reasoning sounds very like a person saying 'well I'll just go ahead and sin and then ask for forgiveness later'

the problem I have with people saying things like 'as a Christian' and then going ahead and voicing something that is actually ANTI Christian, is that they indicate we can interpret things according to our own views...when scripture tells us to renew our minds by the Word

the only one who enjoys seeing infanticide is the devil...he still has his child sacrifices...which is what abortion is

If your thoughts do not line up with scripture, please do not call them Christian...for they are not

 

[kaylagrl]

Thank you for all the responses, they are all thought provoking. From what I can gather though, it seems the answers are all centered around our wish or preference that those souls fulfill a destiny or accomplish something for the good of those living here on earth (or whom one day will be), but isn't that rather selfish on our part, even presumptuous to assume that they would prefer or should prefer an earthly service over a paradise which is entirely devoid of any troubles or worries? God is all-knowing and if he had truly given them a duty to fulfill on earth, Wouldnt it have been so? Despite our having free will, God does know what one will do before it is done and therefore it seems unlikely that God would have given those souls earthly duties knowing full well what was to be. I know God works in mysterious ways but there is "mysterious" and there is "MYSTERIOUS."

It's hard to imagine, if we truly believe that heaven is as perfect as we think it is, that anyone would rationally prefer to have first lived on earth to accomplish or fulfill a destiny, grow in character, suffer hardships or grow in wisdom. Is not that wisdom imparted upon them once in heaven (and if not, wouldnt it render them unequal amongst the other souls having more wisdom creating yet another undesirable set of human emotions)? Neither can I imagine that once up in heaven, they would be left with a feeling of regret, of missed opportunities or a sense if unfulfillment. Would not the glory of heaven far outweigh that yearning or feeling? After all, would they not be entirely fulfilled in heaven already? If the answer is in the affirmative, I have to assume that any argument we would make for missed opportunities or unfulfilled destinies here on earth is a product of our own selfishness, that they share in this journey rather than be rewarded with heaven. I just don't feel they owe us any sort of service, even if only to provide comfort to others. Can we really justify the suffering of an innocent child in a place like Somalia, for example, purely for the comfort of others? I would like to think comfort in such situations can be obtained at less a cost.

Lastly, I feel the real victims are those mothers whom having made a horrible decision will have to live with the consequences of that decision for the rest of their days. They, will not likely occupy heaven.

It has nothing to do with what we wish for people to accomplish here on earth.God is the creator of life.He has a purpose for each life.One person affects another.That is why our witness as a Christian is so important.If it was better that a child goes to heaven instead of being born God would have given us that choice without us having to murder an innocent life to do so.God had a purpose in creating humans and putting us on earth.Only HE has the right to stop that process.No one else! Murder is murder.The Bible says "if you harm one of these little ones its better a millstone be hung round your neck and cast in the deepest sea". I think thats pretty direct.Your reasoning is faulty,and according to Gods word,wrong.

 

[atwhatcost]

Thank you for all the responses, they are all thought provoking. From what I can gather though, it seems the answers are all centered around our wish or preference that those souls fulfill a destiny or accomplish something for the good of those living here on earth (or whom one day will be), but isn't that rather selfish on our part, even presumptuous to assume that they would prefer or should prefer an earthly service over a paradise which is entirely devoid of any troubles or worries? God is all-knowing and if he had truly given them a duty to fulfill on earth, Wouldnt it have been so? Despite our having free will, God does know what one will do before it is done and therefore it seems unlikely that God would have given those souls earthly duties knowing full well what was to be. I know God works in mysterious ways but there is "mysterious" and there is "MYSTERIOUS."

It's hard to imagine, if we truly believe that heaven is as perfect as we think it is, that anyone would rationally prefer to have first lived on earth to accomplish or fulfill a destiny, grow in character, suffer hardships or grow in wisdom. Is not that wisdom imparted upon them once in heaven (and if not, wouldnt it render them unequal amongst the other souls having more wisdom creating yet another undesirable set of human emotions)? Neither can I imagine that once up in heaven, they would be left with a feeling of regret, of missed opportunities or a sense if unfulfillment. Would not the glory of heaven far outweigh that yearning or feeling? After all, would they not be entirely fulfilled in heaven already? If the answer is in the affirmative, I have to assume that any argument we would make for missed opportunities or unfulfilled destinies here on earth is a product of our own selfishness, that they share in this journey rather than be rewarded with heaven. I just don't feel they owe us any sort of service, even if only to provide comfort to others. Can we really justify the suffering of an innocent child in a place like Somalia, for example, purely for the comfort of others? I would like to think comfort in such situations can be obtained at less a cost.

Lastly, I feel the real victims are those mothers whom having made a horrible decision will have to live with the consequences of that decision for the rest of their days. They, will not likely occupy heaven.

Um, no, they aren't fulfilling a destiny. Destiny implies an unknown force that doesn't care. His name is God and he cares deeply, so destiny isn't it... by a long shot.

Second, I'm disabled. Pretty much a useless zit on society's back side. I am no longer able to help myself, help others or help society. Planning on kicking me off the life-list too? Never going to happen without a good fight. I have purpose. Sure, I'm not going to be the next President, I'm not going to stamp out hunger in the world, I'm not going to be the next Bill Gates, but I have purpose. You deny that of other people? You deny that of God? Big problem there, and denying God is a lot less likely than you getting rid of the disabled too.

Pharaoh had purpose. Not the purpose he thought he had, and counter to God's will, but God still used him in a mighty way.

"Isn't that rather selfish?" Really? Compared to your great idea? I'm thinking it doesn't get more selfish than denying God his will.

Equally as selfish to assume the final goal is heaven. It's really not. We're not the final goal. Never were, never will be. The final goal is God gets the glory and worship he has always deserved (and in all truth has always received, since he invented time and space.)

News flash. Heaven will not be a place where we get to do whatever we think we want to do now. It is a place where we get to do what we were designed and fashioned to do -- worship God forever. This is very much all about God, and truly? You think you deserve that more than a mother who killed her child? You think highly of yourself and much less of others. There will be women who killed their children standing in the crowd while we all worship God. It is quite possible their child will be doing the same. It is quite possible you will be with them, but not if you keep assuming you have better thoughts than God.

God killed every firstborn Egyptian. Do you really think he did that to protect all those men, women, and children from having a long tough life? God let the Egyptians kill all baby boys of the Israelites? Do you really think he wasn't in control? God had the Israelites kill full tribes of others. Do you really think he did that to make it easier on the dead people? And, if God is all about comfort, then why did he let Peter, Paul, and just about every apostle suffer so greatly? For that matter, why aren't I comfortable? Was it because they weren't "innocent babies" anymore? Babies are no more "innocent" than the rest of us.

You had a nonbeliever thought and seem to be pressing to make it into a Christian thought. It didn't work, because it wasn't. Sometimes it's a good idea to listen to see if maybe you could be wrong. In this case, you are.