Hebrews 6:1-6

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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#821
#821
SarahM777 said:

This is what Merriam has for the definition of pluck

: to pull (something) quickly to remove it

: to remove some or all of the feathers or hairs from (something)
: to take (someone or something) away from a place or situation suddenly or by force



I could be wrong but when they say the definition is to TAKE BY FORCE, it means to take by force or am I wrong on that? :confused:
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6998. קָטַף qâṭaph, kaw-taf’; a prim. root; to strip off:— crop off, cut down (up), pluck.

Strong, J. (1996). The New Strong’s Dictionary of Hebrew and Greek Words. Nashville: Thomas Nelson.
 
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Elin

Banned
#822
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
#822
SarahM777 said:

This is what Merriam has for the definition of pluck

: to pull (something) quickly to remove it

: to remove some or all of the feathers or hairs from (something)
: to take (someone or something) away from a place or situation suddenly or by force



I could be wrong but when they say the definition is to TAKE BY FORCE, it means to take by force or am I wrong on that? :confused:
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It would seem to me you are right on that.

And since no one can take the born again from God's hand, even by force,
then those in his hand are not strong enough to wriggle out of it either.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#823
#823
SarahM777 said:
Again EG that question is based on your EMOTIONS,not whether the Father,Jesus and the writers of scripture says otherwise. Again we are not TOLD the why they do.
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Thats a straw man argument.

It is not based on emotions. It is based on human nature, and what true faith is.

Again you just excuse things away which may show your in error. You refuse to even contemplate things. That is sad.

 
SarahM777

SarahM777

Banned
#824
Dec 26, 2012
5,853
137
0
#824
Elin said:
It would seem to me you are right on that.

And since no one can take the born again from God's hand, even by force,
then those in his hand are not strong enough to wriggle out of it either.
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So are you saying God forces someone to REMAIN in His hands? Because that it what it sounds like your saying. I myself have yet to find anywhere where GOD FORCES someone to stay. I can find that one remains OUT OF a loving response,but NEVER by force.
 
SarahM777

SarahM777

Banned
#825
Dec 26, 2012
5,853
137
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#825
eternally-gratefull said:
Thats a straw man argument.

It is not based on emotions. It is based on human nature, and what true faith is.

Again you just excuse things away which may show your in error. You refuse to even contemplate things. That is sad.

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Then you should be able to EXPLAIN WHY the Israelites DIED IN UNBELIEF,even though they SAW the plagues being poured out on Egypt,they saw the Red Sea parted,they were fed by manna from heaven and quails,they saw water coming from a rock,and they were LED by a cloud by day and a pillar by night,and many were healed from a serpents bite by looking at a BRONZE SNAKE yet all of they DIED IN UNBELIEF. Please explain how that is possible that they did.

Please explain HOW Judas and many of Isaelites of Jesus day DIED IN UNBELIEF when they saw Jesus turning water into wine,healing the lame,the blind and the sick,feeding over 8,000 people and on the day He died many saw the sky turn as dark as night,there were earthquakes and not only on top of the temple veil was torn in two. Not only on top of that many of them KNEW were His tomb was,they knew the story of His resurrection and where His empty tomb was. Why did they still die in unbelief? Answer those questions and you will have answer. Because in all of that IT DOES NOT MAKE ANY SENSE AS TO WHY they remained in unbelief. They had FAR MORE PROOFS then we were ever given and YET MANY OF THEM DIED IN UNBELIEF.
 
SarahM777

SarahM777

Banned
#826
Dec 26, 2012
5,853
137
0
#826
Elin said:
It would seem to me you are right on that.

And since no one can take the born again from God's hand, even by force,
then those in his hand are not strong enough to wriggle out of it either.
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Elin,

I don't believe it's as easy to do as many who say your in salvation moment by moment. It's the WRONG premise. How are we saved,we are saved by GOD'S GRACE THROUGH FAITH. The premise MUST start with whether one is IN THE FAITH or NOT. It has ALWAYS been through faith we saved. I know people who believe that salvation is a moment by moment thing will ALWAYS use both David and Peter as examples of being in salvation at a point in time. Minor problem with that is WHERE does scripture ever show that their FAITH died? Their FAITH HAD NOT DIED. Why? Because it was the FAITH THAT God had given them that caused them to be restored. :)

Jesus even prays that Peters faith WOULD NOT FAIL.

Luke 22

[SUP]31 [/SUP]“Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift all of you as wheat. [SUP]32 [/SUP]But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.”

[SUP]33 [/SUP]But he replied, “Lord, I am ready to go with you to prison and to death.”

[SUP]34 [/SUP]Jesus answered, “I tell you, Peter, before the rooster crows today, you will deny three times that you know me.”


It was Peter's faith that caused him to turned back,his faith DID NOT FAIL. :)


And in neither case can you find that God washed His of David nor did Jesus wash His hands of Peter and they were told "That's it I am through with you". With David,God sends Nathan to confront him and to restore him. Jesus prays for Peter and his faith not to fail. Both are in serious sin. Yet neither of them are cast off. To get the WHOLE picture that has HAS factored in also.

So it all comes down one thing We are declared righteous by faith,without it NO ONE will be declared righteous.
 
SarahM777

SarahM777

Banned
#827
Dec 26, 2012
5,853
137
0
#827
And then to take it further how does one deal with this when God tells Jeroboam this AFTER David is dead,after committing adultery,trying to cover it up and then murder because he couldn't cover it up anymore?

1 Kings 11

[SUP]29 [/SUP]About that time Jeroboam was going out of Jerusalem, and Ahijah the prophet of Shiloh met him on the way, wearing a new cloak. The two of them were alone out in the country, [SUP]30 [/SUP]and Ahijah took hold of the new cloak he was wearing and tore it into twelve pieces. [SUP]31 [/SUP]Then he said to Jeroboam, “Take ten pieces for yourself, for this is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘See, I am going to tear the kingdom out of Solomon’s hand and give you ten tribes. [SUP]32 [/SUP]But for the sake of my servant David and the city of Jerusalem, which I have chosen out of all the tribes of Israel, he will have one tribe. [SUP]33 [/SUP]I will do this because they have[SUP][b][/SUP] forsaken me and worshiped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, Chemosh the god of the Moabites, and Molek the god of the Ammonites, and have not walked in obedience to me, nor done what is right in my eyes, nor kept my decrees and laws as David, Solomon’s father, did.
[SUP]34 [/SUP]“‘But I will not take the whole kingdom out of Solomon’s hand; I have made him ruler all the days of his life for the sake of David my servant, whom I chose and who obeyed my commands and decrees. [SUP]35 [/SUP]I will take the kingdom from his son’s hands and give you ten tribes. [SUP]36 [/SUP]I will give one tribe to his son so that David my servant may always have a lamp before me in Jerusalem, the city where I chose to put my Name. [SUP]37 [/SUP]However, as for you, I will take you, and you will rule over all that your heart desires; you will be king over Israel. [SUP]38[/SUP]If you do whatever I command you and walk in obedience to me and do what is right in my eyes by obeying my decrees and commands, as David my servant did, I will be with you. I will build you a dynasty as enduring as the one I built for David and will give Israel to you. [SUP]39 [/SUP]I will humble David’s descendants because of this, but not forever.’”
[SUP]40 [/SUP]Solomon tried to kill Jeroboam, but Jeroboam fled to Egypt, to Shishak the king, and stayed there until Solomon’s death.


God plainly says DAVID obeyed His decrees,commands,and laws. That also MUST be taken into account what point God is trying to make to us.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#828
#828
SarahM777 said:
So are you saying God forces someone to REMAIN in His hands? Because that it what it sounds like your saying. I myself have yet to find anywhere where GOD FORCES someone to stay. I can find that one remains OUT OF a loving response,but NEVER by force.
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I have yet to find anyone who would WANT to let go of Gods hand. In the bible or elswhere

God is not the evil man who makes our lives so miserable we do not want anything to do with him anymore. that says do this or else.

He is a loving parent. Who will correct us when we get out of line, but even that is in so much love (a love we can not even fathom) that it would not cause us to lose faith in him.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#829
#829
SarahM777 said:
Then you should be able to EXPLAIN WHY the Israelites DIED IN UNBELIEF,even though they SAW the plagues being poured out on Egypt,they saw the Red Sea parted,they were fed by manna from heaven and quails,they saw water coming from a rock,and they were LED by a cloud by day and a pillar by night,and many were healed from a serpents bite by looking at a BRONZE SNAKE yet all of they DIED IN UNBELIEF. Please explain how that is possible that they did.
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1. Because they NEVER HAD FAITH IN GOD. (can you show me one act of faith they ever accomplished? The complained BEFORE the red sea, The complained BEFORE the manna, then they complained DURING the manna, They complained BEFORE the rock, then complained BEFORE the second rock. Moses being so fed up with their unbelief that it caused him to sin, and miss out on the promise as he died before the entered.)
2. They never stopped having faith in God. THEY NEVER HAD FAITH

Please explain HOW Judas and many of Isaelites of Jesus day DIED IN UNBELIEF when they saw Jesus turning water into wine,healing the lame,the blind and the sick,feeding over 8,000 people and on the day He died many saw the sky turn as dark as night,there were earthquakes and not only on top of the temple veil was torn in two. Not only on top of that many of them KNEW were His tomb was,they knew the story of His resurrection and where His empty tomb was. Why did they still die in unbelief? Answer those questions and you will have answer. Because in all of that IT DOES NOT MAKE ANY SENSE AS TO WHY they remained in unbelief. They had FAR MORE PROOFS then we were ever given and YET MANY OF THEM DIED IN UNBELIEF.
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Your really going to go there? Judas never had faith. He believed in jesus but he never had faith, he stole from them from day one, he continued in sin, he did not change his life. Jesus in John 6 even made the remark, You saw me feed 5 thousand, but you do not believe in me, you want a handout, not what I came to offer.

If your going to use examples of people who have seen Gods work and love, yet NEVER had faith in God and HIS WORD (SALVATION) to prove one can lose faith. Your in serious trouble.

These are examples of what james talks about. people who believe in God (even demons believe) yet never had faith in God. their faith could not save them, because their faith was not in Christ and the work he came to do. Many people just like them go to church, and appear to be christian, but never have been. Paul spoke about them even in his day, as did peter james and Jude, John speant quite some time talking about them who have never recieved the anointing, and told us point blank. they were never saved.
 
SarahM777

SarahM777

Banned
#830
Dec 26, 2012
5,853
137
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#830
eternally-gratefull said:
I have yet to find anyone who would WANT to let go of Gods hand. In the bible or elswhere

God is not the evil man who makes our lives so miserable we do not want anything to do with him anymore. that says do this or else.

He is a loving parent. Who will correct us when we get out of line, but even that is in so much love (a love we can not even fathom) that it would not cause us to lose faith in him.
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Since when is ones heart LOGICAL? If our hearts were logical we would NEVER sin. Logically we KNOW that SIN is not good for us or others. We KNOW the results of lying,stealing,murder etc,etc,etc. The heart defies logic. One part of your question is based on emotions and the other part of your question is trying to LOGICALLY figure out something that is TOTALLY ILLOGICAL.
 
SarahM777

SarahM777

Banned
#831
Dec 26, 2012
5,853
137
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#831
eternally-gratefull said:


1. Because they NEVER HAD FAITH IN GOD. (can you show me one act of faith they ever accomplished? The complained BEFORE the red sea, The complained BEFORE the manna, then they complained DURING the manna, They complained BEFORE the rock, then complained BEFORE the second rock. Moses being so fed up with their unbelief that it caused him to sin, and miss out on the promise as he died before the entered.)
2. They never stopped having faith in God. THEY NEVER HAD FAITH



Your really going to go there? Judas never had faith. He believed in jesus but he never had faith, he stole from them from day one, he continued in sin, he did not change his life. Jesus in John 6 even made the remark, You saw me feed 5 thousand, but you do not believe in me, you want a handout, not what I came to offer.

If your going to use examples of people who have seen Gods work and love, yet NEVER had faith in God and HIS WORD (SALVATION) to prove one can lose faith. Your in serious trouble.

These are examples of what james talks about. people who believe in God (even demons believe) yet never had faith in God. their faith could not save them, because their faith was not in Christ and the work he came to do. Many people just like them go to church, and appear to be christian, but never have been. Paul spoke about them even in his day, as did peter james and Jude, John speant quite some time talking about them who have never recieved the anointing, and told us point blank. they were never saved.
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Go back and read what I said. What I asked was WAS WHY DID THEY DIE IN UNBELIEF (That already presupposes that they DID NOT HAVE FAITH) even though they SAW all those things. I never said they had faith. Why did they REMAIN IN UNBELIEF?

Two where in that post did I mention Judas?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#832
#832
SarahM777 said:
Go back and read what I said. What I asked was WAS WHY DID THEY DIE IN UNBELIEF (That already presupposes that they DID NOT HAVE FAITH) even though they SAW all those things. I never said they had faith. Why did they REMAIN IN UNBELIEF?

Two where in that post did I mention Judas?
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BECAUSE THEY NEVER HAD FAITH.

Jesus answered the question in John 6. And notice, the one who would betray him is included in the people who did not believe.

[SUP]63 [/SUP]It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. [SUP]64 [/SUP]But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.

non of these people were GIVEN Gods love where they actually experienced in faith. Until one has faith and is saved, they have no capacity to see or feel Gods love. why do you think these people saw all these things, yet did not give a second thought to them, but mumbled and complained? BECAUSE THEY DID NOT TRUST GOD.

How can you experience the love of someone, IF YOU DO NOT TRUST THEM? it is one thing to want a handout, like th ejews in Moses day, or those in John 6. It is a far other thing to trust God, and be assured he will do what he promised to do (which none of these people EVER DID
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#833
#833
SarahM777 said:
Since when is ones heart LOGICAL? If our hearts were logical we would NEVER sin. Logically we KNOW that SIN is not good for us or others. We KNOW the results of lying,stealing,murder etc,etc,etc. The heart defies logic. One part of your question is based on emotions and the other part of your question is trying to LOGICALLY figure out something that is TOTALLY ILLOGICAL.
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So what your saying is, Someone saved by faith. Made a new creature in Christ, Who as John said understands ALL things, and does not need to be taught (because they have the anointing from God) still acts like an illogical creature which can not understand things?

Sorry sis, I am not buyiig it.

A person who is saved, is no longer a dog. that acts on instinct and can not be logical. He is a new creature created in Christ Jesus, Given the HS to help him understand, and his eyes are opened up to Gods truth.

A dog will always remain a dog. and may act like a new creature for a time, but he will always return to his own vomit. because he is just a dog.
 
SarahM777

SarahM777

Banned
#834
Dec 26, 2012
5,853
137
0
#834
eternally-gratefull said:
So what your saying is, Someone saved by faith. Made a new creature in Christ, Who as John said understands ALL things, and does not need to be taught (because they have the anointing from God) still acts like an illogical creature which can not understand things?

Sorry sis, I am not buyiig it.

A person who is saved, is no longer a dog. that acts on instinct and can not be logical. He is a new creature created in Christ Jesus, Given the HS to help him understand, and his eyes are opened up to Gods truth.

A dog will always remain a dog. and may act like a new creature for a time, but he will always return to his own vomit. because he is just a dog.
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Do you still sin? Knowing the CONSEQUENCES of sin is it LOGICAL to sin? If it is NOT then why do you still sin?
 
SarahM777

SarahM777

Banned
#835
Dec 26, 2012
5,853
137
0
#835
eternally-gratefull said:

BECAUSE THEY NEVER HAD FAITH.

Jesus answered the question in John 6. And notice, the one who would betray him is included in the people who did not believe.

[SUP]63 [/SUP]It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. [SUP]64 [/SUP]But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.

non of these people were GIVEN Gods love where they actually experienced in faith. Until one has faith and is saved, they have no capacity to see or feel Gods love. why do you think these people saw all these things, yet did not give a second thought to them, but mumbled and complained? BECAUSE THEY DID NOT TRUST GOD.

How can you experience the love of someone, IF YOU DO NOT TRUST THEM? it is one thing to want a handout, like th ejews in Moses day, or those in John 6. It is a far other thing to trust God, and be assured he will do what he promised to do (which none of these people EVER DID
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Again EG where did I say they HAD FAITH? Do you understand what I am asking? It does not sound like it.

Lets try this again, DOES IT MAKE SENSE for them to REMAIN in UNBELIEF even though they saw with their own eyes all those being done BEFORE THEIR VERY EYES? Can you in anyway,shape or form UNDERSTAND WHY they REMAINED in unbelief? It's makes NO SENSE why they remained in unbelief. I am NOT asking IF THEY HAD FAITH,I am asking WHY DID THEY REMAIN IN UNBELIEF? How does that make any sense at all?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#836
#836
SarahM777 said:
Again EG where did I say they HAD FAITH? Do you understand what I am asking? It does not sound like it.

Lets try this again, DOES IT MAKE SENSE for them to REMAIN in UNBELIEF even though they saw with their own eyes all those being done BEFORE THEIR VERY EYES? Can you in anyway,shape or form UNDERSTAND WHY they REMAINED in unbelief? It's makes NO SENSE why they remained in unbelief. I am NOT asking IF THEY HAD FAITH,I am asking WHY DID THEY REMAIN IN UNBELIEF? How does that make any sense at all?
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Yeah I do know why they remained in unbelief.

THEY DID NOT TRUST GOD. They had TRUST in OTHER (CARNAL) Things. (all they were worried about was self and what they could get)

I will be honest. I can not comprehend how you do not see this.

If I trust someone, I do not question what they ask or say, I take them at their word (until the let me down)

If I do not trust them, no matter HOW MANY TIMES they PROVE TO ME they KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING. I will continue to question them, continue to murmur about them, and continue to do things my own way.

Which is EXACTLY what these people did.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#837
#837
SarahM777 said:
Do you still sin? Knowing the CONSEQUENCES of sin is it LOGICAL to sin? If it is NOT then why do you still sin?
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why, Because I am not perfect. And I still put myself above others to many times.

Why? Ask paul. He had the same problem.

Now your going to relate a thing like sin, which we will not understand or be free of until we get to heaven,, with salvation of God, his love and his faithfulness?

Does it take one to lose ALL faith in God to sin? Or just LACK faith in God to sin in certain areas?

As jesus said, faith of a mustard seed can move mountains, He healed a mans child. who just admitted, I have faith, but help me in my unbelief. And as scripture says, even when e are faithless, HE REMAINS FAITHFUL he can not deny himself.

It is good that you ask questions sis, thats how we learn. But I wonder, are you ever going to seek the answers? or keep asking the same questions.
 
SarahM777

SarahM777

Banned
#838
Dec 26, 2012
5,853
137
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#838
eternally-gratefull said:

why, Because I am not perfect. And I still put myself above others to many times.

Why? Ask paul. He had the same problem.

Now your going to relate a thing like sin, which we will not understand or be free of until we get to heaven,, with salvation of God, his love and his faithfulness?

Does it take one to lose ALL faith in God to sin? Or just LACK faith in God to sin in certain areas?

As jesus said, faith of a mustard seed can move mountains, He healed a mans child. who just admitted, I have faith, but help me in my unbelief. And as scripture says, even when e are faithless, HE REMAINS FAITHFUL he can not deny himself.

It is good that you ask questions sis, thats how we learn. But I wonder, are you ever going to seek the answers? or keep asking the same questions.
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EG,

The simple thing is that sinning,remaining in unbelief and walking away ARE ALL ILLOGICAL. They can not and DO NOT MAKE sense. Remaining in unbelief and walking away are MATTERS of the heart. They always were and continue to be. Our response to Him and to remain in Him is a response out of the heart. To walk away from Him is a hardening of the heart. For one to harden their heart makes no sense. It's the hardening of the heart that leads into unbelief.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#839
#839
SarahM777 said:
EG,

The simple thing is that sinning,remaining in unbelief and walking away ARE ALL ILLOGICAL. They can not and DO NOT MAKE sense. Remaining in unbelief and walking away are MATTERS of the heart. They always were and continue to be. Our response to Him and to remain in Him is a response out of the heart. To walk away from Him is a hardening of the heart. For one to harden their heart makes no sense. It's the hardening of the heart that leads into unbelief.
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Remaining in unbelief.

Those are your words, And I agree with you in those words. People who remain in unbelief have never tasted the love of God on a deep personal level. They may experience some things, even get a taste of God (like the people who were fed saw all those miracles,) but they have never actually experienced Gods true love personally. (also called in the christian world. blessing by association with Gods people)

If they want to be saved, they have to come from a point of unbelief, to true literal faith (assurance) if not. they they will remain in unbelief (they may even believe IN GOD. but they do not have faith in God)

these people were never saved, never born of God, Never given the spirit, who would seal them, never experienced the literal love of God in their hearts.

so how can you use this to PROVE on can walk away? When it proves the opposite. that they"remained in unbelief" (your words)
 
SarahM777

SarahM777

Banned
#840
Dec 26, 2012
5,853
137
0
#840
eternally-gratefull said:

Remaining in unbelief.

Those are your words, And I agree with you in those words. People who remain in unbelief have never tasted the love of God on a deep personal level. They may experience some things, even get a taste of God (like the people who were fed saw all those miracles,) but they have never actually experienced Gods true love personally. (also called in the christian world. blessing by association with Gods people)

If they want to be saved, they have to come from a point of unbelief, to true literal faith (assurance) if not. they they will remain in unbelief (they may even believe IN GOD. but they do not have faith in God)

these people were never saved, never born of God, Never given the spirit, who would seal them, never experienced the literal love of God in their hearts.

so how can you use this to PROVE on can walk away? When it proves the opposite. that they"remained in unbelief" (your words)
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2 Timothy 2

[SUP]14 [/SUP]Keep reminding God’s people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, [SUP]18 [/SUP]who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.

How can something be destroyed if it WAS NEVER THERE in the FIRST PLACE? How does you make sense of passages like these if FAITH WAS NEVER THERE in the first place?
 
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