-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
I think part of the difficulty may be a misunderstanding of justification!
As I posted on another thread: If you want to understand justification look at your word processor!
Left justification aligns text with the left margin. Right justification aligns text with the right margin.
Full justification aligns text around an imaginary center crease. God's justification aligns our will with His will.
So you don't study scripture? So you don't take care of your faith by feeding on the Word? Is that really where you want to go? You don't test doctrine to see if it lines up with scripture so you don't go into error? You don't pray? I am quite sure you do do those things. Those are all things that go into taking care of ones faith. It's not done by osmosis. You are the one that does those things,God doesn't do those things for you.
The Greek word for "pluck" in Jn 10:28-29 is harpazo, which means "to snatch away."
Nothing is strong enough to snatch the born again from the hand of Almighty God.
Do you think you are strong enough to wiggle out of it?
God has promised to keep his own (Php 1:6; Heb 10:14; 1Th 5:24; Ro 8:38; 1Pe 1:3-5; 2Pe 1:10; Heb :16-20; Ps 37:24; Jer 32:40).
Those who have the root (Lk 8:13) do not fall away (Lk 8:15; Jn 6:39, 17:12, 18:9; Ro 8:29-30;
Eph 1:4-8, 11-14; 1Co 1:8-9).
Wouldn't that be the Scripture above, Jn 10:28-29?
The Biblical meaning of "free will" (which is not the same as the philosophical meaning), as well as the Biblical meaning of God's foreknowledge must be understood in order to understand eternal security of the born again.
You're a very bright guy and might find interesting a presentation of such.
I strongly recommend that, putting your objections on the back burner, you consider the whole presentation to see where it is going before you make a response to it.
If you like slicing, dicing, cutting, stabbing, etc., then after you've reviewed the whole presentation, you can proceed to post #2 there.
The presentation is summed up here.
Hope we're still friends after your perusal of all the above.
Nothing is strong enough to snatch the born again from the hand of Almighty God.
Do you think you are strong enough to wiggle out of it?
God has promised to keep his own (Php 1:6; Heb 10:14; 1Th 5:24; Ro 8:38; 1Pe 1:3-5; 2Pe 1:10; Heb :16-20; Ps 37:24; Jer 32:40).
Those who have the root (Lk 8:13) do not fall away (Lk 8:15; Jn 6:39, 17:12, 18:9; Ro 8:29-30;
Eph 1:4-8, 11-14; 1Co 1:8-9).
Wouldn't that be the Scripture above, Jn 10:28-29?
The Biblical meaning of "free will" (which is not the same as the philosophical meaning), as well as the Biblical meaning of God's foreknowledge must be understood in order to understand eternal security of the born again.
You're a very bright guy and might find interesting a presentation of such.
I strongly recommend that, putting your objections on the back burner, you consider the whole presentation to see where it is going before you make a response to it.
If you like slicing, dicing, cutting, stabbing, etc., then after you've reviewed the whole presentation, you can proceed to post #2 there.
The presentation is summed up here.
Hope we're still friends after your perusal of all the above.
E
Thats not taking care of the gift. The gift is yours, it was freely given, paid for by the savior.
Out of that gift comes many possibilities. and many blessings. Whether or not we get to reach in and grab those things are up to us choosing to trust God in other areas with the same faith we had for his eternal gift. But it does not negate or make the gift any less powerful to do what it was given for. To save a lost soul from his sin, and give them eternal life.
Again, Your to focused on self. try to focus more on God. that will make you want to learn more about his unfailing love, and do what you said we should do.
The cross and our faith is the cornerstone. He did the work. Nothing we could ever do would make that gift any more or any less than it is. Because it is not of us, it is of God.
You do not understand,all those warnings,all the places where we are told to HOLD ONTO the faith,to abide in Him,to continue in the faith,and to endure to the end SHOULD be a stern REMINDER that APART from Him we CAN NOT BE SAVED. And apart from Him we CAN'T do those things He told us do. It should be a stern reminder that WE NEED TO UTTERLY,TOTALLY,and completely hold onto to Him and the faith we have in Him and Him alone. If we don't hold fast to our faith in HIM WHAT ELSE IS THERE TO SAVE US,who else can us? There is NO ONE AND NOTHING ELSE APART FROM HIM that can. Not even faith in ONES FAITH can save them.
J
Thank you very much, Elin. I'm in a pinch for some time today, but am eager to see this, will carefully consider all, as this is something I've never completely understood, am not even saying what is right. I have seen some things, heard some things, and there's scripture that strongly opens a door to a couple questions. It's a matter of seeking answers to those questions I asked, though: they aren't rhetorical questions, rather I really just don't know. Thank you again. I'll get back when possible, mercy!
Pluck,ed definition
[h=2]pluck[/h] (plŭk)v. plucked, pluck·ing, plucks
v.tr.1. To remove or detach by grasping and pulling abruptly with the fingers; pick: pluck a flower; pluck feathers from a chicken.
2. To pull out the hair or feathers of: pluck a chicken.
3. To remove abruptly or forcibly: plucked their child from school in midterm.
4. To give an abrupt pull to; tug at: pluck a sleeve.
5. Music To sound (the strings of an instrument) by pulling and releasing them with the fingers or a plectrum.
v.intr. To give an abrupt pull; tug.
Does plucked out by definition mean walk,step,run,jump or leaped out? Do any any of those mean FORCIBLY REMOVED in anyway,shape or form?
V
Doesn't "no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand" include us, ourselves? Not to mention dunamai (dunamai) -- "able" -- implies that one has power by virtue of one's own ability, or through a state of mind, or even by permission of the Law to do something. Who in their right mind would want to act on such power if they were in Christ's hand? The thought is ludicrous.
Whether you THINK it's ludicrous or not matters NOT. What matters is whether the Father,Jesus or the apostles SAID IT WAS POSSIBLE and DOES happen.
You need to deal with these.
1 Timothy 1
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Timothy, my son, I am giving you this command in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by recalling them you may fight the battle well, [SUP]19[/SUP]holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck with regard to the faith. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.
1 Timothy 4
4 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. [SUP]3 [/SUP]They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. [SUP]4 [/SUP]For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, [SUP]5 [/SUP]because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.
1 Timothy 5
5 Do not rebuke an older man harshly, but exhort him as if he were your father. Treat younger men as brothers, [SUP]2 [/SUP]older women as mothers, and younger women as sisters, with absolute purity.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Give proper recognition to those widows who are really in need. [SUP]4 [/SUP]But if a widow has children or grandchildren, these should learn first of all to put their religion into practice by caring for their own family and so repaying their parents and grandparents, for this is pleasing to God. [SUP]5 [/SUP]The widow who is really in need and left all alone puts her hope in God and continues night and day to pray and to ask God for help. [SUP]6 [/SUP]But the widow who lives for pleasure is dead even while she lives. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Give the people these instructions, so that no one may be open to blame. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.
1 Timothy 6
These are the things you are to teach and insist on. [SUP]3 [/SUP]If anyone teaches otherwise and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, [SUP]4 [/SUP]they are conceited and understand nothing. They have an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions [SUP]5 [/SUP]and constant friction between people of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]But godliness with contentment is great gain. [SUP]7 [/SUP]For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. [SUP]8 [/SUP]But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. [SUP]10[/SUP]For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.
2 Timothy 2
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Keep reminding God’s people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, [SUP]18 [/SUP]who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.
2 Timothy 4
4 In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: [SUP]2 [/SUP]Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. [SUP]4 [/SUP]They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. [SUP]5 [/SUP]But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.
That's just what Paul wrote to Timothy. Need I go on?
snatch meaning Merriam Webster
verb \ˈsnach\
: to take (something) quickly or eagerly
: to take (something or someone) suddenly from a person or place often by using force
Full Definition of SNATCH
intransitive verb
: to attempt to seize something suddenly
transitive verb
: to take or grasp abruptly or hastily <snatch up a pen> <snatched the first opportunity>; also : to seize or take suddenly without permission, ceremony, or right <snatched a kiss>
Does snatched out by definition mean walk,step,run,jump or leaped out? Do any any of those mean FORCIBLY REMOVED in anyway,shape or form?
It's either they don't or one is CHANGING THE CLEAR MEANING of the word to force it to mean that..
verb \ˈsnach\
: to take (something) quickly or eagerly
: to take (something or someone) suddenly from a person or place often by using force
Full Definition of SNATCH
intransitive verb
: to attempt to seize something suddenly
transitive verb
: to take or grasp abruptly or hastily <snatch up a pen> <snatched the first opportunity>; also : to seize or take suddenly without permission, ceremony, or right <snatched a kiss>
Does snatched out by definition mean walk,step,run,jump or leaped out? Do any any of those mean FORCIBLY REMOVED in anyway,shape or form?
It's either they don't or one is CHANGING THE CLEAR MEANING of the word to force it to mean that..
J
Well, some people would tell you I'm 'pert near good at wiggling out of things, praise Him, just could find no scintilla of reason on earth to wiggle out of Christ!
As to the pressing matters at hand, I'd thought maybe you'd found something that indicates God's will just cannot be resisted with open eyes I'd overlooked, but this bottom line I can't buy,
God glorifies his mercy by saving only some men, because the glory of his justice is more important than the salvation of all men.
Herein is the Calvinism that's argued over, so I certainly need not go into any details of that debate one can Google or surely find threads here about, but I'm in the camp of "whosover" of John 3:16-17, have always believed we have a job to believe the gospel, as the Bible is clear on. Even the Romans 9 Potter and vessels rhetoric is "What if God?", about God's sovereignty and man's proper perspective to not question God, is a scenario Paul lays out, "what if" not doctrine, some universal principle, that God is making vessels fit for destruction, that masses of people are irreversibly born damned. As to the verses in John, the scenario is some man plucking people out of the hand of Christ, again, this not a scenario of walking away, any trying to morph pluck into unpluckishness irrelevant by the qualifier an external force, some man, is doing the plucking, or let's put it a third party doing the plucking. Also, any assertion we're that man ourselves is an attractive extrapolation, but not warranted, any absolute, in the context of this teaching, is taking liberties the likes of which can lead to exegetical error. At least I've always avoided any doctrinal prejudices like the plague when reading scripture, as it's always His truth, not what we want to make of it. There are a few things I don't like in the Bible too much, but have no right, like the cults, to start fabricating around my prejudices. There is only truth to be grasped, God's truth, what we'd like to believe immaterial.
So, thank you for the studies, and I'd not think any less of you, but, unfortunately, my questions remain, not being even semi-Calvinist for overwhelming scripture that God would like to save the world and desires none to perish, has always tried to reason with man, throughout the Bible. This would be a rather silly exercise, for those thousands of years, if He were talking to brick walls, without any potential to answer His call righteously. Would the Lord even utter, "Come now, and let us reason together," to those incapable of reason?
As to the pressing matters at hand, I'd thought maybe you'd found something that indicates God's will just cannot be resisted with open eyes I'd overlooked, but this bottom line I can't buy,
God glorifies his mercy by saving only some men, because the glory of his justice is more important than the salvation of all men.
Herein is the Calvinism that's argued over, so I certainly need not go into any details of that debate one can Google or surely find threads here about, but I'm in the camp of "whosover" of John 3:16-17, have always believed we have a job to believe the gospel, as the Bible is clear on. Even the Romans 9 Potter and vessels rhetoric is "What if God?", about God's sovereignty and man's proper perspective to not question God, is a scenario Paul lays out, "what if" not doctrine, some universal principle, that God is making vessels fit for destruction, that masses of people are irreversibly born damned. As to the verses in John, the scenario is some man plucking people out of the hand of Christ, again, this not a scenario of walking away, any trying to morph pluck into unpluckishness irrelevant by the qualifier an external force, some man, is doing the plucking, or let's put it a third party doing the plucking. Also, any assertion we're that man ourselves is an attractive extrapolation, but not warranted, any absolute, in the context of this teaching, is taking liberties the likes of which can lead to exegetical error. At least I've always avoided any doctrinal prejudices like the plague when reading scripture, as it's always His truth, not what we want to make of it. There are a few things I don't like in the Bible too much, but have no right, like the cults, to start fabricating around my prejudices. There is only truth to be grasped, God's truth, what we'd like to believe immaterial.
So, thank you for the studies, and I'd not think any less of you, but, unfortunately, my questions remain, not being even semi-Calvinist for overwhelming scripture that God would like to save the world and desires none to perish, has always tried to reason with man, throughout the Bible. This would be a rather silly exercise, for those thousands of years, if He were talking to brick walls, without any potential to answer His call righteously. Would the Lord even utter, "Come now, and let us reason together," to those incapable of reason?
J
No, I did go through it all, and didn't see anything unheard of, or truths unfamiliar. I just don't see the answer I was looking for, without resorting to a Calvinistic approach I don't see scripture backing, in the first place. The line I cited sums up what I find dubious, where it all falls apart. But thank you!