Hebrews 6:1-6

Jimbone · Apr 15, 2015

Agreed, and building on my comment from yesterday I have personally experienced this too. I thought I was Christian and called myself one for at least 5 years before I truly came to know Christ. To be honest I didn't even realize what happen to me when I was regenerated for about a week or so. I feel God saved me the day my pride died, and because I already thought I was a Christian I didn't even call out His name, or ask God for anything, to be very honest at this point I wasn’t sure I even wanted to believe in God anymore. I also wasn't at some "church" where a church leader convinced me what to do, or anything like that. I just came to the end of being able to rely on myself to overcome the hardship I was going threw at that time, and realized then and there I was capable of nothing, especially when it came to the loss of my right arms function. Here are the details if anyone wants to know more about the whole situation, My testimony to Gods glory in my life. It's long but worth a read.

Like I said though, I didn't hit my knees calling out to God (or at least not knowingly) I just hit them and said "I can't do this anymore, world I tried and you win, I just can't do this anymore x10. I woke up the next day and all the suicidal thoughts I had every 5 minutes for the last 2 1/2 years were completely gone, I had no idea what happen, but I did know it was God that did it. LOL, it took me about a week to realize fully what had taken place, and then I think I walked around for 2 weeks after that with my jaw dropped realizing all this "Jesus/God/ Holy Spirit" stuff was so very literally real.

We are conditioned from birth, from every possible outlet that God is not real, and the supernatural doesn't exist, so it takes God to reveal Himself to us for us to have that assurance. So I see how some can be fooled into thinking they believe and know Christ while they don’t, but only because I was one of them so many years.

MarcR · Apr 15, 2015

Sarah,

Foolishness is a departure from reason whether or not it ever visited reason.

I'm not insinuating that you are foolish; just answering your question.

eternally-gratefull · Apr 15, 2015

SarahM777 said:

you keep on going don't you? You never listen to reason. Thats why we can never communicate.

does that passage say one lost complete faith in God and thus lost salvation because they walked away? NO! It said that these two men spoke that God already came back so why bother walking with God. for we already lost a chance, he is not coming back again.

anyway, my opinion never matters to you. so saying that is just a waste of time, so lets look at the passage.

the word destroy in the greek means to upset, calm, overthrow, ruin (cause to have no power) dishearten, divert from) it does not mean to totally destroy. nothing said that some of these people lost complete faith (salvation) and the passage suggests some of them have yet to even repent to get saved in the first place (read on)

but nice try.

second, why did you stop there?

[SUP]19 [/SUP]Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ[SUP][c][/SUP] depart from iniquity.” [SUP]20 [/SUP]But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Flee also youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife. [SUP]24 [/SUP]And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, [SUP]25 [/SUP]in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, [SUP]26 [/SUP]and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.

What does this say about those who have true faith?

1. They have the seal of God
2. They are known by God
3. Some will be prepaired to do great works for God. Some may not.
4. Be of those who prepair and can be used for God, and not those who are wood and clay
5. There are some, who have not yet come to faith, keep doing for them, so maybe God will grant them repentance, and they too will be saved from the world of satan.

Nothing in this passage says ANYONE lost salvation, or gave it back to God. NOTHING!

SarahM777 · Apr 15, 2015

eternally-gratefull said:

you keep on going don't you? You never listen to reason. Thats why we can never communicate.

does that passage say one lost complete faith in God and thus lost salvation because they walked away? NO! It said that these two men spoke that God already came back so why bother walking with God. for we already lost a chance, he is not coming back again.

anyway, my opinion never matters to you. so saying that is just a waste of time, so lets look at the passage.

the word destroy in the greek means to upset, calm, overthrow, ruin (cause to have no power) dishearten, divert from) it does not mean to totally destroy. nothing said that some of these people lost complete faith (salvation) and the passage suggests some of them have yet to even repent to get saved in the first place (read on)

but nice try.

second, why did you stop there?

[SUP]19 [/SUP]Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ[SUP][c][/SUP] depart from iniquity.” [SUP]20 [/SUP]But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Flee also youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife. [SUP]24 [/SUP]And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, [SUP]25 [/SUP]in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, [SUP]26 [/SUP]and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.

What does this say about those who have true faith?

1. They have the seal of God
2. They are known by God
3. Some will be prepaired to do great works for God. Some may not.
4. Be of those who prepair and can be used for God, and not those who are wood and clay
5. There are some, who have not yet come to faith, keep doing for them, so maybe God will grant them repentance, and they too will be saved from the world of satan.

Nothing in this passage says ANYONE lost salvation, or gave it back to God. NOTHING!

Eg What does other throw and RUIN mean?

Overthrow

1
: overturn, upset

2
: to cause the downfall of : bring down, defeat

3
: to throw a ball over or past (as a base or a receiver)

Ruin

: a state of complete destruction : a state of being ruined

: the remaining pieces of something that was destroyed
: the state of having lost money, social status, etc.

eternally-gratefull · Apr 15, 2015

SarahM777 said:

1. I have had my faith ruined in people many times because they let me down. Does God ever let you down?
2. Peoples faith in God has been ruined, and they became the wood and clay paul spoke of (became useless to god) yet they still had faith in God and who he was and that he would save them (I did this for 5 years) and my ruined faith had to be restored in areas of my life I lost faith in) which is what paul was talking about in the passage which immediately follows the verses your trying to use.
3. As I told you, and already proved with the passage, NOT EVERYONE PAUL SPOKE TO WAS SAVED. why do they need God to grant them repentance to pull them out of satans world if they already repented? Why do they need to know the truth again if they already repented once before, whihc paul said, then (and only then) can they know the truth?

if your going to ignore the rest of the passage which puts it in context. There can be be more discussion.

SarahM777 · Apr 15, 2015

eternally-gratefull said:

You left out the fact that NEVERTHELESS IS A QUALIFIER it does NOT change the fact that some of them had their faith destroyed nor does it change God's solid foundation. What a man does DOES NOT ever change the solid foundation. The foundation always remains the same. The thing that CAN CHANGE is if one REMAINS on that solid foundation or not.

Are you saying you no longer repent of anything?

eternally-gratefull · Apr 15, 2015

SarahM777 said:

You left out the fact that the people who had faith in God had a seal. The people who were gods knew truth, the people which were gods did not need to repent, for they already had.

why would I need to repent of my salvation? I have known, and always have known since the time I first realized it, I am a sinner, and I am deserving of Gods wrath, and only God can save me via the cross. (even when I was a prodigal son, I still had faith in this, it never died). why would I have to repent of that over and over?

we are talking about salvation here, not of learning what a new sin is, and having to repent of that sin, because we realize we are guilty of it.

SarahM777 · Apr 15, 2015

eternally-gratefull said:

It does NOT say the people have the seal. It says the FOUNDATION has the seal.

[SUP]19 [/SUP]Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ[SUP][c][/SUP] depart from iniquity.”

You are reading that the people have the seal into the text,and IT DOES NOT SAY THAT.

Then for the sake of young Christians would it not be a good idea to say that,and not just say you don't repent? If you do not clarify that,then how will they know,that this is what you mean?

Elin · Apr 15, 2015

SarahM777 said:

I am saying that God does not allow the born again to fall away from their profession of saving faith,
for he keeps them (Ps 37:24; Jer 32:40, Ro 8:38; Php 1:6; 1Th 5:24; Heb 6:1-6, 10:14; 1Pe 1:3-5;
2Pe 1:10).

Agreed. . .God keeps them by working in their hearts so that they want only to stay in his hand and never want to leave it.

So the question of choosing to leave his hand is a moot one.

Those who fall away from their profession of faith had no root of rebirth, and were never saved, which is what their falling away from their profession of faith shows (1Jn 2:19)--their faith was counterfeit (Mt 7:21-23).

They didn't "choose" to leave God's hand, they were never in it, because they were not born again.

eternally-gratefull · Apr 15, 2015

SarahM777 said:

so we have no foundation? what is our faith in if we have no foundation?

[SUP]

The lord knows WHO ARE HIS. did God make a mistake and save someone that was not his? he lost them? How can God lose someone? Thats what our faith is founded on. God knows us,

who would say you do not repent? repentance is the foundation of faith. one who has not repented has no foundation to have faith in.

Elin · Apr 15, 2015

JesusIsAll said:

Got time for that thar story?

MarcR · Jul 27, 2015

kennethcadwell said:

Once again this old debate to try and discredit somebody as an apostle even though the bible clearly lists them as one.

People have been so stuck on this false teaching that there was only the original 11, then Matthias and Paul were added later and thats it. The bible lists a number of others as apostles, and Barnabas is one of them. The Lord said the Holy Spirit will guide them and us in all truth, so if they lied then you say the Holy Spirit lied. That is a dangerous thing to get into you cancel out the writings of Holy Spirit lead people clearly identified as an apostle in the bible...

Acts 14:14
But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of it, they tore their robes and rushed out into the crowd, crying out

We must get over this teaching of there being only 11 until Matthias and Paul were added to make a total of 13 because the bible gives and names more than this as apostles. Here is another passage from Paul that shows there was more than that;

1 Corinthians 15:4-8

4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve.

6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep.

7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. 8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.

Kenneth,

Words do NOT change the way they are used because you or I want them to mean something else!

MarcR · Jul 27, 2015

oldhermit said:

By oldhermit

The Hebrew writer describes both the prior and latter states of those who had fallen away.
A.Their prior state - These had:

1. Been enlightened.
2. Had tasted the heavenly gift. (The word for tasted is γευσαμένους which means to experience. This is the same word that is used in 2:9 saying, Jesus "tasted" death for everyone. This is not a mere limited sampling, this is an embracing of the full experience.
3. Been made partakers of the Holy Spirit. These has received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit who serves as the Christian's seal of divine ownership.
4. Tasted the good word of God.

B. Present state - They have "fallen away." From what then have they fallen?

1. An enlightened state.
2. The experience of the heavenly gift.
3. The partaking or sharing of the Holy Spirit.
4. The good word of God.
5. They have crucified Christ all over again. Like those of 10:26-31, these have "trampled under foot the Son of God and regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he WAS sanctified" (passed tense). In other words these now regard the blood that had once sanctified them as nothing more than the proverbial hog slaughtered on the altar.

C. The impossible dilemma - It is now impossible to renew them again to repentance. Why? Because they have fallen away from the very thing that brought them to repentance in the first place which was the word of God. It is now impossible to restore them to repentance. One cannot be RE-newed AGAIN to a state they have never occupied. Thus, having once been saved and then having fallen away, they cannot be brought back because they will no longer repent. This is of course representing the extreme case.

D. Their fate. Like the ground that yields thistles and thorns, they are cursed and they end up being burned. Just like those of 10:26-31, whose fate is to fall into the hands of a vengeful God who says, "I will repay." The parabolic illustration come out of Matthew 13:20-21, Mark 4:16-17, and Luke 8:13. They are worthless to the purposes of God and God discards them.

1. The writer is not saying they claimed to have tasted, but presents a statement of fact - "They had tasted." They had returned to the law. These had previously left the law in response to the gospel. Now, they are rejecting the cross and going back to the law. This is the foundation they were "laying again."
2. This is not a question. There is no "if" in the Greek. It simply says, παραπεσόντας - literally "having fallen away". This is a statement of fact based on actual cases, not a what if scenario. This is an aorist, passive, accusative verb. They had fallen away at some time in the past and that condition continues. They are still fallen away.
3. Under the law, sin was not forgiven based on those sacrifices, but based on what those sacrifices represented - the cross. Leviticus chapters 4 and 5 show us that they were indeed forgiven under the law but, it was not by the law. Even David understood this. "How blessed is the man whose transgression is forgiven, whose sins are covered...to whom the Lord does not impute iniquity," Psalms 32:1-2. He also knew those sacrifices were not the avenue through which forgiveness came. "Thou dost not delight in sacrifice or I would bring it." Psalms 51:1-2.
4. The inability to renew again is not linked to a supposition of "IF" they were to fall away. The impossibility is linked to the fact that after having been saved they have rejected the cross, not the old sacrifices, and in so doing had shamed Christ openly.
5. The writer does not say they cannot be saved again. He says that cannot be brought back to repentance again. This certainly renders them unable to remain saved since there is no longer repentance. These had once been in a saved relationship. Now that relationship has been severed; not by Christ but by them.
6. He is not comparing the crucifying of Christ again to the repetitious offering of O.T. sacrifice. Those who had rejected and fallen away were considering Christ worthy of the crucifixion. They were rejecting him and his sacrifice. Like those of 10:29, they were considering the blood of Christ "BY WHICH THEY HAD BEEN SANCTIFIED" an unclean thing, and had insulted the Spirit of grace.
7. The writer's point is that these had been sanctified - made holy - something that all of the sacrifices of the O.T. combined could never do. In verse 29, he even draws a contrast between the one's of whom he is speaking and those who died under the law for rejecting Moses. They rejected the blood after having been cleansed by it are now worthy of greater punishment than those who were under the Law. Verse 30 shows their fate.

There is no use of a conditional in Hebrews 6:6.

Hebrews 6:4-6 sets forth a hypothetical situation, which is categorically declared to be impossible.

MarcR · Jul 27, 2015

oldhermit said:

The fact is that there are none such! Heb 6:4-6 is a hypothetical condition which is declared to be impossible.

MarcR · Jul 27, 2015

valiant said:

When i mentioned that there are 2 senses of the word apostle, I stated that one sense was the 11 +Matthias+Paul.

The other sense is any missionary or any person commissioned by a local church to a specific ministyy.

Both Barnabas and James (the brother of Jesus) were apostles in the second sense; as are all modern missionaries.

oldhermit · Jul 27, 2015

MarcR said:

What is there is this text that suggests to you that this is presented as a hypothetical situation and that such a situation is impossible?

MarcR · Jul 27, 2015

oldhermit said:

Verse 4 begins with the words Ἀδύνατον γὰρ which translate as: '(it is) impossible that'.

The remainder of verses 4-6 is comprised of 3 statements conjoined with the coordinating conjunction kai. hence EVERYTHING following γὰρ in verses 4-6 is categorically declared impossible.

Elin · Jul 27, 2015

MarcR said:

Could it not be saying that those

who have some knowledge and common understanding, as Balaam's eyes were opened (Nu24:3),
who by the Holy Spirit have felt something of religion,
who have even been partakers of the Holy Spirit's gifts (Mt 7:22-23),
who have heard the gospel with pleasure, but did not keep it (Lk 8:13),
who have been moved by such teachings as heaven and hell--
none of which are saving faith and justification--

having tasted all of these decided they didn't like it,
cannot then change their minds (repentance) and come back to it again,
because in not liking it and leaving it they are crucifying (rejecting) Christ all over again,
and there is no other sacrifice for their sin?

If God does not bring them back to repentance, which he does not often do,
it is literally impossible for them to come back in the face of their dislike for it.

MarcR · Jul 27, 2015

Elin said:

Could it not be saying that those

who have some knowledge and common understanding, as Balaam's eyes were opened (Nu24:3),
who by the Holy Spirit have felt something of religion,
who have even been partakers of the Holy Spirit's gifts (Mt 7:22-23),
who have heard the gospel with pleasure, but did not keep it (Lk 8:13),
who have been moved by such teachings as heaven and hell--
none of which are saving faith and justification--

having tasted all of these decided they didn't like it,
cannot then change their minds (repentance) and come back to it again,
because in not liking it and leaving it they are crucifying (rejecting) Christ all over again,
and there is no other sacrifice for their sin?

If God does not bring them back to repentance, which he does not often do,
it is literally impossible for them to come back in the face of their dislike for it.

As I understand Greek grammar (which is of course not definitive) I don't see how that reading works.

Elin · Jul 27, 2015

MarcR said:

It seems it's repentance that is impossible, not the situation, shown above to be very possible and sometimes actual.

Hebrews 6:1-6

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