The curse of the law
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J
Not many people I know, personally, would agree, though there are scholars I don't know personally who would. And even Adrian Rogers said one thing I don't agree with, that you can't prove God. A statistical analysis anybody can get on the web of fulfilled prophecy proves, beyond any empirical doubt, by accepted, statistical scientific methods, Bible future prophecy is a fact, and impossibly otherwise, this beyond any randomness. Of course, only God could know things hundreds or a thousand or more years that will come to pass, in even the smallest details. The Bible is proven supernatural.
There is also the overwhelming legal case, including accepted historical standards, that if one were to try Jesus Christ for being the Son of God, He would be convicted, worlds beyond any minimal burden of proof: witness accounts, the complete veracity of the witness persons within the framework of their accounts, the events themselves interlaced with incidental events pointing to complete truth things did happen as they did: only the OJ jury would miss it.
On very close and analytical scrutiny, the Bible is supernatural, real evidence of God, enshrined in black, white and red, and therefore the word of that God completely credible. People choose disbelief, which is a function of blindness, not lack of evidence. Jesus didn't expect everybody to just believe, rather proved to those in His time on earth His power and authority as coming from God. Then there's the testimony of those of us who KNOW God by the Holy Spirit, and how Christianity didn't just vanish off the map, either, like any fake circus show would. Jesus Christ would be a footnote in history, had He not risen from the dead. I think there's a lot of tangible proof.
So, there. I said mah peace in this here matter, and y'alls jus disagrees, per usual. Cain't all us be right, ah reckin'.
There is also the overwhelming legal case, including accepted historical standards, that if one were to try Jesus Christ for being the Son of God, He would be convicted, worlds beyond any minimal burden of proof: witness accounts, the complete veracity of the witness persons within the framework of their accounts, the events themselves interlaced with incidental events pointing to complete truth things did happen as they did: only the OJ jury would miss it.
On very close and analytical scrutiny, the Bible is supernatural, real evidence of God, enshrined in black, white and red, and therefore the word of that God completely credible. People choose disbelief, which is a function of blindness, not lack of evidence. Jesus didn't expect everybody to just believe, rather proved to those in His time on earth His power and authority as coming from God. Then there's the testimony of those of us who KNOW God by the Holy Spirit, and how Christianity didn't just vanish off the map, either, like any fake circus show would. Jesus Christ would be a footnote in history, had He not risen from the dead. I think there's a lot of tangible proof.
So, there. I said mah peace in this here matter, and y'alls jus disagrees, per usual. Cain't all us be right, ah reckin'.
close but no cigar. english is not good language to understand this, but is still possible if one has the Spirit(as it is written below) ..... the Spiritual Truth is not understood by study.
[h=1] 1 Corinthians 2:12-14Revised Standard Version (RSV)[/h] [SUP]12 [/SUP]Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is from God, that we might understand the gifts bestowed on us by God. [SUP]13 [/SUP]And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who possess the Spirit.[SUP][a][/SUP]
[SUP]14 [/SUP]The unspiritual[SUP][b][/SUP] man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
[h=4]Footnotes:[/h]
Revised Standard Version (RSV) Revised Standard Version of the Bible, copyright © 1946, 1952, and 1971 the Division of Christian Education of the National Council of the Churches of Christ in the United States of America. Used by permission. All rights reserved.
[h=1] 1 Corinthians 2:12-14Revised Standard Version (RSV)[/h] [SUP]12 [/SUP]Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is from God, that we might understand the gifts bestowed on us by God. [SUP]13 [/SUP]And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who possess the Spirit.[SUP][a][/SUP]
[SUP]14 [/SUP]The unspiritual[SUP][b][/SUP] man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
[h=4]Footnotes:[/h]
- 1 Corinthians 2:13 Or interpreting spiritual truths in spiritual language; or comparing spiritual things with spiritual
- 1 Corinthians 2:14 Or natural
Revised Standard Version (RSV) Revised Standard Version of the Bible, copyright © 1946, 1952, and 1971 the Division of Christian Education of the National Council of the Churches of Christ in the United States of America. Used by permission. All rights reserved.
N
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Answer me this how am I a heretic when what I wrote about earlier is written in Scripture clear as day!
21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Answer me this how am I a heretic when what I wrote about earlier is written in Scripture clear as day!
I do, for empirical knowledge is verifiable by experience rather than theory or pure logic. So, to me, the Holy Spirit bears witness to the unseen hope that God given experiences instigate.
"And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;And patience, experience; and experience, hope: For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?" Romans 5:3-4 and Romans 8:24
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Hebrews 11:1
"Evidence of things not seen" is "empirical knowledge." It's a faith thing don't cha know.
"And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;And patience, experience; and experience, hope: For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?" Romans 5:3-4 and Romans 8:24
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Hebrews 11:1
"Evidence of things not seen" is "empirical knowledge." It's a faith thing don't cha know.
Third time I will say this...I have no problem with Gods righteous judgements, which start and end in the authority of the Word of God, never to be transferred to us and added to... for how are we to discern the needs of people to reconcile them to Christ?
And again I will state my problem: I have noted..the process of the Character of a Godly worker in that reconciling has been not used gracefully sometimes.. This is my only issue. I do not believe in human rationalization of what sin is in people but where God has written it plainly we have account for that issue...but it's how we treat people after that discernment that becomes just as important an issue to God as the sin, first diagnosed.
Let me be more specific so you can stop merging my issues...We need to understand the depth and concern God has over us knowing these traits He wants us to have when dealing with people...To me sin is sin; I agree with many you have outlined in people but the way in which you have reconciled them I have felt some of these have not been fully developed, to a point of sin. I had mentioned that to help. Not attack. But in response I get many conclusive comments about things not pertaining to anything but personal pride, and a collective ganging up on people. God speaks of how we are to go one on one then bring others etc etc, yet how the people are treated is vital as well. It's not a lynching. This is my Spirit speaking is all...If I do all these things yet do not have love I am bankrupt. And the sincerity of love has accountable merits and demerits:
The Character of the Lord's Worker:
1. A good Listener.
2. A lover of men, all men not just the brethren.
3. Having a mind to suffer.
4. Buffeting the body and making it a slave.
5. Diligence.
6. Restrained in speaking.
7. Stable.
8. Not subjective.
9. Proper alignment with issues on money and possessions.
And some others I forget at the moment.
God's Worker is the Employee of God, and is to accomplish His purposes, all of them. And as such, the constitution of Character and the formation of personal habits is vital. I just want us all to honor God by treating people as we would want to be treated.And have the Spirit of God in His single-mindedness permeate the Forums of this site. This gives God His due glory.
I wouldn't disagree on those matters, but I do know that even in the face of all that evidence, I would not have been convinced. . .just wouldn't have. . .it just didn't matter to me. . .I am one of those you describe above.
So I tend to come from that former place of unbelief when I deal with the matter of belief.
None of that evidence would bring me to belief.
So I tend to come from that former place of unbelief when I deal with the matter of belief.
None of that evidence would bring me to belief.
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J
No doubt about that, a whole other topic, and quite the mystery to me. Spiritual blindness overwhelms intelligence, by what means I don't know, that is, how that blindness is worked on our minds. I've been Christian since so young and of such a disposition when young to more be an observer of life, not as much a thinking participant, was one of those children that just went with the flow of things. I don't have a reference for being intellectually developed and rejecting these obvious truths. So I can't understand what seems to me people failing to see obvious, objective facts. For instance, I can learn science, find understanding of the mathematics upon examination, learning, nothing keeping me from learning. If somebody told me to look in this or that book to get what I need, I'd do it, check it out, find out what's there. For crying out loud, if somebody told me you can see God there, I'd be all over it! But it gets worse. You present the facts and statistics, and it's like you're showing people hieroglyphics. Completely bizarre and inexplicable to me, though it's just like not understanding scripture without the Spirit I suppose. Still, facts and stats, there in black and white?
I recommend that you go back to the Greek, because the English that you use
for v. 13 adds what is not in the Greek; i.e., "to those who possess the Spirit."
The Greek states "comparing spiritual things with spiritual things" or
"expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words."
The Greek does not state "to those who possess the Spirit."
The Holy Spirit gave to Paul the very words (v.13) he used to express the understanding which the Holy Spirit gave to Paul of what God has freely given us (v.12).
And then you think the born again study the word of God apart from the Holy Spirit?
You think the born again understand the word of God apart from the illumination of the Holy Spirit?
You think the Holy Spirit gives understanding not based in the word of God?
That is a serious misunderstanding of the NT.
for v. 13 adds what is not in the Greek; i.e., "to those who possess the Spirit."
The Greek states "comparing spiritual things with spiritual things" or
"expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words."
The Greek does not state "to those who possess the Spirit."
The Holy Spirit gave to Paul the very words (v.13) he used to express the understanding which the Holy Spirit gave to Paul of what God has freely given us (v.12).
And then you think the born again study the word of God apart from the Holy Spirit?
You think the born again understand the word of God apart from the illumination of the Holy Spirit?
You think the Holy Spirit gives understanding not based in the word of God?
That is a serious misunderstanding of the NT.
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We shouldn't be looking at the curse of the law if we are not going to see the blessings. Why are we so negative in that respect?
If we shouldn't be instructed by the law's blessings why in the world are we talking and concentrating on its after effects such as defining the law as a curse? Both curses and blessings are after the fact, not the fact. The law came first with curses, and blessings. If in Christ we define the curse, why not also define the blessings and neglect the curses the same as we do God's law? If we acknowledge the one as positive in Christ, why talk about the opposite without Christ? That makes little sense. Blessings are defined in the law and so are cursings. If we neglect those things as we do the law, we are also neglecting the definitions of blessings by the rejection of the law.
If we shouldn't be instructed by the law's blessings why in the world are we talking and concentrating on its after effects such as defining the law as a curse? Both curses and blessings are after the fact, not the fact. The law came first with curses, and blessings. If in Christ we define the curse, why not also define the blessings and neglect the curses the same as we do God's law? If we acknowledge the one as positive in Christ, why talk about the opposite without Christ? That makes little sense. Blessings are defined in the law and so are cursings. If we neglect those things as we do the law, we are also neglecting the definitions of blessings by the rejection of the law.
I walk to the intersection and see the street light with the picture of a walking person. As I look both ways, the cars to my right and left come to a stop, and I am free to walk across the street in safety. This is a blessing. As I walk to the other side of the street I turn right to cross the street that is perpendicular to the one I just crossed. The light is red telling me that it's not the right time to cross. I don't want to wait so I cross against the warning and get hit by a car and am critically injured. This is a curse.
The light in this parable is the law, and my actions according to the instructions the light gives bring to me either curses or blessings. It's simple then to comprehend that the law is not the curse per se. The curses, and blessings are the consequence of my actions.
Empirical knowledge is observation and experience rather than theory or pure logic.
I use the term of the natural order.
I have no natural empirical knowledge (observation and experience) that would cause me to know salvation.
I have much experience in the spiritual order which causes me to know salvation.
I use the term of the natural order.
I have no natural empirical knowledge (observation and experience) that would cause me to know salvation.
I have much experience in the spiritual order which causes me to know salvation.
this is why you don't know yet, nor understand. the experiential life , living IN UNION WITH YAHSHUA, in YAHWEH , is simply the 'natural' way of life for all those who are born again in JESUS(YAHSHUA).
the spirit is not "out there some where" or otherwise far away or not in a believer's experience - although western society and greek ways have corrupted all so much you might think so.
when the spirit that raised from the dead yahshua hamashiach dwells in you, .... (but, true, >... ) this is AFTER being born again for most people and is in all people who are born again...
it is also taught by the spirit, not by the mind, not by study, but by grace through faith, a gift from yahweh.
'doctrine' does not and cannot increase nor give the spirit , nor life, nor salvation.
and the spirit in union with yahweh is in union with yahshua is in union with all who are in him, born again by the will of yahweh the father, not by the will man or of the flesh.
the union is always experienced , no matter where in the world or what country/language/society one is in or speaks or lives.
and it always breaks down every barrier to knowing yahweh, and to fellowship with him and in him and also every barrier to fellowship with others who are born again - joyous, peaceful, complete union in yahshua with all others who share his life.
the spirit is not "out there some where" or otherwise far away or not in a believer's experience - although western society and greek ways have corrupted all so much you might think so.
when the spirit that raised from the dead yahshua hamashiach dwells in you, .... (but, true, >... ) this is AFTER being born again for most people and is in all people who are born again...
it is also taught by the spirit, not by the mind, not by study, but by grace through faith, a gift from yahweh.
'doctrine' does not and cannot increase nor give the spirit , nor life, nor salvation.
and the spirit in union with yahweh is in union with yahshua is in union with all who are in him, born again by the will of yahweh the father, not by the will man or of the flesh.
the union is always experienced , no matter where in the world or what country/language/society one is in or speaks or lives.
and it always breaks down every barrier to knowing yahweh, and to fellowship with him and in him and also every barrier to fellowship with others who are born again - joyous, peaceful, complete union in yahshua with all others who share his life.
Maybe you are starting to understand this;
Galatians 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
How are we, who are living unto God, looking back to what we are dead to?
The law is not instructions. If the law were instructions then Christ died in vain. And the word of God in the NT is not true.
The Law is our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. Do you know who teaches us after we come to Christ?
John 14:26-27
[SUP]26 [/SUP]But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
Can you understand any of this if you don't understand Galatians 2:19??? Probably not.
2 Corinthians 3:5-8
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
[SUP]8 [/SUP]How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
I guess you don't see that you are still attempting to operate in the letter, the ministration of death written on stone. Or maybe you do and you are purposely attempting to mis-lead christians. I don't believe the latter, so I must believe the former.
Galatians 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
How are we, who are living unto God, looking back to what we are dead to?
If we shouldn't be instructed by the law's blessings why in the world are we talking and concentrating on its after effects such as defining the law as a curse? Both curses and blessings are after the fact, not the fact. The law came first with curses, and blessings. If in Christ we define the curse, why not also define the blessings and neglect the curses the same as we do God's law? If we acknowledge the one as positive in Christ, why talk about the opposite without Christ? That makes little sense. Blessings are defined in the law and so are cursings. If we neglect those things as we do the law, we are also neglecting the definitions of blessings by the rejection of the law.
The Law is our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. Do you know who teaches us after we come to Christ?
John 14:26-27
[SUP]26 [/SUP]But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
Can you understand any of this if you don't understand Galatians 2:19??? Probably not.
2 Corinthians 3:5-8
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
[SUP]8 [/SUP]How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
I guess you don't see that you are still attempting to operate in the letter, the ministration of death written on stone. Or maybe you do and you are purposely attempting to mis-lead christians. I don't believe the latter, so I must believe the former.