Catholics

[Blain]

One place to see catholic thinking is in the works of saints. The hunger and thirst for Jesus in such as Margaret Mary read like a love story. But if you gather together their spiritual works, such as " dialogue, Catherine of Siena - interior castles, Teresa of Avila - dark night of the soul, John of the Cross, to even recent works such as those of Diary, Sister Faustina even such as Edith Stein, from memory you will struggle to find references to Mary at all.

.Not that we do not honour and love her deeply, we do, but she is not the centre of what we believe, she points towards Jesus, she does not usurp him.

How does Mary point one to Jesus? And also why do some Pray to her? Is she not a regular human like the rest of us? I'm only asking to try to understand

 

[valiant]

Perhaps you can explain to me? Why it is that 10000 Protestant denominations at least believe in mutually exclusive things on every material aspect of doctrine, you name it , they disagree with each other, on justification, sacraments, liturgy, predestination , Eucharist , baptism... The list is endless.

Its easy to explain. You are simply self-deceived. All evangelicals of every denomination believe the essential doctrines. They also believe in Justification by faith alone. And almost all believe in engaging in baptism and the Lord's Supper (quakers and salvation army excepted), even though they may interpret them slightly differently. The other matters are of secondary importance.

So please tell me which 1 Protestant denomination got it right and which are the 9999 false teachers and doctrines?
Which is the only one I should listen to? Or is there one?

LOL which of the thousands of views held by Catholics are right? Where there are people there are differences of views. But most Protestants agree on the essential doctrines. you just exaggerate the differences. we do not believe in one denomination which is 'right'. whether a person is right depends on whether they accept the central truths about Christ and His salvation.

It is those who are right about those who form the true church.

 

[crossnote]

But therein lies the problem, it takes time in big institutions.

Luthers big gripe was " paid indulgencies" , and at the council of Trent a few years after his death, the pope did indeed speak out against the practice in no uncertain terms. Patience is a virtue and Luther's" I demand it now" was never going to achieve anything. He excommunicated himself in essence by speaking out against the institution , refusing it!

What few realize about Luther is in later life he profoundly regretted the mess he created where all felt empowered to create their own doctrine, " every milkmaid now has their own" " scandalous" he lamented, and said had he foreseen what would happen he would never have spoken out about it, saying " the only way back to unity was via the councils of a Rome" , so he showed contrition.

He also kept his belief in real presence, his veneration of Mary and so on. If present day Protestants studied his later writings, I doubt they would use him as such a poster boy, because abhorred the idea of modern Protestants, that " me, Jesus and the bible " are enough for sound theology.

We don't venerate Luther's every belief neither do we reject them. He is not our pope. We judge his doctrine according to Scripture and our convictions formed by the Scriptures.

 

[valiant]

How does Mary point one to Jesus? And also why do some Pray to her? Is she not a regular human like the rest of us? I'm only asking to try to understand

1. 1. Delivery Prayer To Mary Hymns Bakti, 1991, No. 52

1. 1. Holy Mary, Mother of our Lord Jesus Christ, thou art Queen's noblest. so good you became queen of us all. Show (Tunjukanlah) to us the path to holiness and guide us so as not to get lost.
      Take charge of our mind, so we're just looking for the right.
      We will be over, so we just want good.
      Take charge of our hearts, that we love one another as a brother.
      Overcome ourselves each and all family members.
      Overcome all members of society, every nation and world dignitaries.
      May they strap you into them all in a firm unity.
      Overcome all mankind.
      Open to the path of faith for those who are not familiar with your Son, Jesus.
      Help for all nations to have a united, harmonious and peaceful life.
      Watch over (Naungilah) all mankind, especially the persecuted and hounded.
      They bear it in oppression and enlighten those in darkness, in order to remain faithful to Jesus, your son.
      Present (Hantarlah) all our petition to thy Son, the Maharaja, king of peace, where every prayer of the petition is granted, every load lightened hearts and infirmities healed.
      I hope people who know His power and put hope in Him. occasionally see the royal splendor of thy Son, who with the Father and the Holy Spirit lives and power, now and all time. Amen​
2. 1. Gregory XVI., in 1832,​
      Says, in his Encyclical Letter [MIRARI VOS], published August 15th of that year: † "But that all things may have a prosperous and happy issue, let us raise our eyes and hands to the most holy Virgin Mary, who only destroys all heresies, who is our greatest hope; yea, the entire ground of our hope.​
      Prayer to the Blessed Virgin​
      Most Holy and Immaculate Virgin! O my Mother! Thou who art the Mother of my Lord, the Queen of the world, the advocate, hope, and refuge of sinners! I, the most wretched among them, now come to thee. I worship thee, great Queen, and give thee thanks for the many favors thou hast bestowed on my in the past; most of all do I thank thee for having saved me from hell, which I had so often deserved. I love thee, Lady most worthy of all love, and, by the love which I bear thee, I promise ever in the future to serve thee, and to do what in me lies to win others to thy love. In thee I put all my trust, all my hope of salvation. Receive me as thy servant, and cover me with the mantle of thy protection, thou who art the Mother of mercy! And since thou hast so much power with God, deliver me from all temptations, or at least obtain for me the grace ever to overcome them. From thee I ask a true love of Jesus Christ, and the grace of a happy death. O my Mother! By thy love for God I beseech thee to be at all times my helper, but above all at the last moment of my life. Leave me not until thou seest me safe in heaven, there for endless ages to bless thee and sing thy praises. Such is my hope. Amen.― (Prayer of St. Alphonse Liguori, 3 yrs indulgence,Raccolta, 342)​
   
   
   
   
   1. (Bull Ineffabilis Deus 1854)​
      18. It is therefore, a pleasure for us, a full century having passed since the Pontiff of immortal memory, Pius IX, solemnly proclaimed this singular privilege of the Virgin Mother of God, to summarize the whole doctrinal position and conclude in these words of the same Pontiff, asserting that this doctrine "vouched for in Sacred Scripture according to the interpretation of the Fathers, is handed down by them in so many of their important writings, is expressed and celebrated in so many illustrious monuments of renowned antiquity, and proposed and confirmed by the greatest and highest decision of the Church", so that to pastors and faithful there is nothing "more sweet, nothing dearer than to worship, venerate, invoke and praise with ardent affection the Mother of God conceived without stain of original sin.” (Ibidem.)​
   
   
   
   
   Does this help?
   

 

[crossnote]

But therein lies the problem.
The myths repeated so often, they gain the status fact.
If anybody cared to check BEFORE criticise, they would know RCC teaches we are saved by grace.

The catechism makes it clear in so many places.



1817 Hope is the theological virtue by which we desire the kingdom of heaven and eternal life as our happiness, placing our trust in Christ's promises and relying not on our own strength, but on the help of the grace of the Holy Spirit. "Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful."84 "The Holy Spirit . . . he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life."85


LOTS OF REFERENCES!


1987 The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us "the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ" and through Baptism:34


But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves as dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.35


1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.46


1997 Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an "adopted son" he can henceforth call God "Father," in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church.


1998 This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God's gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature.47


1999 The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification:48


Therefore if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself.49


2000 Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God's call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God's interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification.

And so on and so forth..

But that is not to deny the need for baptism.

Too many protestants think either or, not both and.

Grace alone through FAITH ALONE?

 

[Blain]

1. 1. Delivery Prayer To Mary Hymns Bakti, 1991, No. 52

1. 1. Holy Mary, Mother of our Lord Jesus Christ, thou art Queen's noblest. so good you became queen of us all. Show (Tunjukanlah) to us the path to holiness and guide us so as not to get lost.
      Take charge of our mind, so we're just looking for the right.
      We will be over, so we just want good.
      Take charge of our hearts, that we love one another as a brother.
      Overcome ourselves each and all family members.
      Overcome all members of society, every nation and world dignitaries.
      May they strap you into them all in a firm unity.
      Overcome all mankind.
      Open to the path of faith for those who are not familiar with your Son, Jesus.
      Help for all nations to have a united, harmonious and peaceful life.
      Watch over (Naungilah) all mankind, especially the persecuted and hounded.
      They bear it in oppression and enlighten those in darkness, in order to remain faithful to Jesus, your son.
      Present (Hantarlah) all our petition to thy Son, the Maharaja, king of peace, where every prayer of the petition is granted, every load lightened hearts and infirmities healed.
      I hope people who know His power and put hope in Him. occasionally see the royal splendor of thy Son, who with the Father and the Holy Spirit lives and power, now and all time. Amen​
2. 1. Gregory XVI., in 1832,​
      Says, in his Encyclical Letter [MIRARI VOS], published August 15th of that year: † "But that all things may have a prosperous and happy issue, let us raise our eyes and hands to the most holy Virgin Mary, who only destroys all heresies, who is our greatest hope; yea, the entire ground of our hope.​
      Prayer to the Blessed Virgin​
      Most Holy and Immaculate Virgin! O my Mother! Thou who art the Mother of my Lord, the Queen of the world, the advocate, hope, and refuge of sinners! I, the most wretched among them, now come to thee. I worship thee, great Queen, and give thee thanks for the many favors thou hast bestowed on my in the past; most of all do I thank thee for having saved me from hell, which I had so often deserved. I love thee, Lady most worthy of all love, and, by the love which I bear thee, I promise ever in the future to serve thee, and to do what in me lies to win others to thy love. In thee I put all my trust, all my hope of salvation. Receive me as thy servant, and cover me with the mantle of thy protection, thou who art the Mother of mercy! And since thou hast so much power with God, deliver me from all temptations, or at least obtain for me the grace ever to overcome them. From thee I ask a true love of Jesus Christ, and the grace of a happy death. O my Mother! By thy love for God I beseech thee to be at all times my helper, but above all at the last moment of my life. Leave me not until thou seest me safe in heaven, there for endless ages to bless thee and sing thy praises. Such is my hope. Amen.― (Prayer of St. Alphonse Liguori, 3 yrs indulgence,Raccolta, 342)​
   
   
   
   
   1. (Bull Ineffabilis Deus 1854)​
      18. It is therefore, a pleasure for us, a full century having passed since the Pontiff of immortal memory, Pius IX, solemnly proclaimed this singular privilege of the Virgin Mother of God, to summarize the whole doctrinal position and conclude in these words of the same Pontiff, asserting that this doctrine "vouched for in Sacred Scripture according to the interpretation of the Fathers, is handed down by them in so many of their important writings, is expressed and celebrated in so many illustrious monuments of renowned antiquity, and proposed and confirmed by the greatest and highest decision of the Church", so that to pastors and faithful there is nothing "more sweet, nothing dearer than to worship, venerate, invoke and praise with ardent affection the Mother of God conceived without stain of original sin.” (Ibidem.)​
   
   
   
   
   Does this help?
   

well it confuses me a little i saw a couple things that disturbed me firstly to say Mary was holy, I have not seen any scripture stating she is holy another thing is they literally just said (I worship thee, great Queen, ) I thought we were to worship no one but God himself? and another ( In thee I put all my trust, all my hope of salvation) This part greatly disturbed me because Jesus is the only way to salvation.

Is this really what Catholics believe?

 

[crossnote]

Mileuk wrote:
I discovered the early fathers believed in sacraments, liturgy , real presence,
that bishops were needed for valid sacraments and so on, and they were saying this only one generation after the apostles.

That's the point, the Apostles weren't teaching those doctrines...you don't go back far enough.

 

[JesusIsAll]

We don't venerate Luther's every belief neither do we reject them. He is not our pope. We judge his doctrine according to Scripture and our convictions formed by the Scriptures.

This seems symptomatic of a view that looks to men and some institution of men for authority, when not even the earliest church fathers were but emphasizing scripture truths, many a good man, but the writings of none of them inspired of new revelations. It is difficult to see how, when the whole point is scripture being the final authority, this guilt by association to man rabbit keeps being pulled out of the hat, but it's a primal tool in their repertoire, despite being a total non sequitur to what Bible authority is about. Makes no sense.

 

[DesiredHaven]

That's the point, the Apostles weren't teaching those doctrines...you don't go back far enough.

Exactly, Those of Judaea were making Paul go back and recheck things with those who were apostles before them on the issue of circumcision and keeping the law of Moses, so error was creeping in already, and Paul subjected himself to those in Jerusalem (to Peter and James) on the things that were disputed on even then.

That by far is a better point

 

[valiant]

well it confuses me a little i saw a couple things that disturbed me firstly to say Mary was holy, I have not seen any scripture stating she is holy another thing is they literally just said (I worship thee, great Queen, ) I thought we were to worship no one but God himself? and another ( In thee I put all my trust, all my hope of salvation) This part greatly disturbed me because Jesus is the only way to salvation.

Is this really what Catholics believe?

It is what many Roman Catholics are taught to believe.

 

[crossnote]

Perhaps you can explain to me? Why it is that 10000 Protestant denominations at least believe in mutually exclusive things on every material aspect of doctrine, you name it , they disagree with each other, on justification, sacraments, liturgy, predestination , Eucharist , baptism... The list is endless.

So please tell me which 1 Protestant denomination got it right and which are the 9999 false teachers and doctrines?
Which is the only one I should listen to? Or is there one?

It's easy to get it all 'right ' and unified when there's a monolithic authoritarian institution running the show. Even the Mormons are united on that count.

 

[JesusIsAll]

Exactly, Those of Judaea were making Paul go back and recheck things with those who were apostles before them on the issue of circumcision and keeping the law of Moses, so error was creeping in already, and Paul subjected himself to those in Jerusalem (to Peter and James) on the things that were disputed on even then.

That by far is a better point

Good point, the dispute with the church at Jerusalem a powerful example as to why scripture is necessary, to nip the corruption in the bud. God could not even expect us to be responsible for truth, if we didn't have the absolute refuge of scripture to find that truth.

 

[mikeuk]

How does Mary point one to Jesus? And also why do some Pray to her? Is she not a regular human like the rest of us? I'm only asking to try to understand

" point" was an allegorical phrase - direct your mind towards..

She is a model human " full of grace" " favoured by god" " lord was with her" honoured by Elizabeth as " mother of lord". The ark of the new covenant. And if you believe as we do that revelations 12 is Mary, she is also (spiritual) mother of believers because revelations says " her offspring those who obey the commandments" ,so she is a special lady.

Those are heavy weight titles, but then she was chosen by God from all of her kind to be mother , guardian and teacher of our Lord until adulthood, so God looked after her! A model of obedience, where Eve was model of disobedience.

Protestants make her sound like a discarded and soiled empty baked bean can, after giving birth!

We ask others to pray for us, and unlike our Protestant brothers we see the " prayers of saints at the altar of god" in revelations, so we ask saints past and present to pray for us. Not just Mary but all, but because the prayers are at the altar we know they are potent, and as Mary is most honoured of saints, her prayers the most potent. We see Jesus do what she asks at Cana, noting he says " not till "my time has come" , so he clearly listens, and we know from the davidic kingdom the mother of a davidic king is called queen, and the king is seen to fulfil her requests in the OT, indeed solomon bows to her , granting her wishes. So we think her prayers are potent, and Jesus will listen to her.

Much as when you pray for others, you hope he will listen to you, but how much more potent a request from a saint or mother.

But she is not a God , just a saint, and we ask her to pray for us, that is all.

 

[DesiredHaven]

As a former catholic myself I believe this shows a pretty decent picture (in images) in how the relationship is portrayed between Jesus Christ (the Son of God) and Mary, as she is portaryed as more powerful than him.

For the most part, the perfect image of the Catholic Jesus is shown as dead

Mary is shown as the one who is in control more often then not.

The typical light of majestic holiness emits from her
(with beams of power shooting from her hands)

The angels of heaven catering to her

Okay, that looked a little like mommy dearest in that picture. No one else there, just her and the angels

The Angels are crowning her upon a throne, the serpent under her foot.

Other pictures show Mary sitting on the throne, but with Jesus on her lap (always portrayed as a child) who is sharing but a lap of that seat (as if being babysat by her).

So, sitting with her in her majesty (rather then at the right hand of the throne of majesty of His Father)

Angels are portrayed at her feet (serving here to adjust the footstool under her)
as if all things (even the angels) being subject to her (with baby Jesus as sort of an ornament upon her lap) a child who needs his mommy queen.

Prayers are offered to her as intercessor before God.

She is portrayed as the risen one,
The, "come unto me", mediator

That is how she was really seen of by myself whose both families are catholic with which I grew up.

 

[AngelFrog]

Perhaps you can explain to me? Why it is that 10000 Protestant denominations at least believe in mutually exclusive things on every material aspect of doctrine, you name it , they disagree with each other, on justification, sacraments, liturgy, predestination , Eucharist , baptism... The list is endless.

So please tell me which 1 Protestant denomination got it right and which are the 9999 false teachers and doctrines?
Which is the only one I should listen to? Or is there one?

Why would it matter? It isn't like you'd do it.

 

[mikeuk]

That's the point, the Apostles weren't teaching those doctrines...you don't go back far enough.

You don't know that! And if - in a church in which doctrine was handed down by tradition as it was in those days before NT, from apostles to next...

If you think Jesus would allow it to apostasize in the first handover, you have no faith in him! He said " the gates of hell would not prevail" against his church as you presume....

 

[crossnote]

Exactly, Those of Judaea were making Paul go back and recheck things with those who were apostles before them on the issue of circumcision and keeping the law of Moses, so error was creeping in already, and Paul subjected himself to those in Jerusalem (to Peter and James) on the things that were disputed on even then.

That by far is a better point

yes, even in Revelation Jesus rebuked some of the 7 Churches wayyy back then.
And you're right. ..
Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Imagine that even the Apostles message had to square with Scripture.

 

[JesusIsAll]

There is a rabid type of Mary Catholic that's Mariolatry. There is potent reason to fear for their souls. It has struck me, over the years, for all the claims they're some unified faith, they have their sects and orders that are all over the map. They cop to the whole Catechism, then start specializing. I've known staunch Catholics who don't believe in Papal infallibility and chunks of the Catechism.

Revelation 2:20-21 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

 

[Blain]

" point" was an allegorical phrase - direct your mind towards..

She is a model human " full of grace" " favoured by god" " lord was with her" honoured by Elizabeth as " mother of lord". The ark of the new covenant. And if you believe as we do that revelations 12 is Mary, she is also (spiritual) mother of believers because revelations says " her offspring those who obey the commandments" ,so she is a special lady.

Those are heavy weight titles, but then she was chosen by God from all of her kind to be mother , guardian and teacher of our Lord until adulthood, so God looked after her! A model of obedience, where Eve was model of disobedience.

Protestants make her sound like a discarded and soiled empty baked bean can, after giving birth!

We ask others to pray for us, and unlike our Protestant brothers we see the " prayers of saints at the altar of god" in revelations, so we ask saints past and present to pray for us. Not just Mary but all, but because the prayers are at the altar we know they are potent, and as Mary is most honoured of saints, her prayers the most potent. We see Jesus do what she asks at Cana, noting he says " not till "my time has come" , so he clearly listens, and we know from the davidic kingdom the mother of a davidic king is called queen, and the king is seen to fulfil her requests in the OT, indeed solomon bows to her , granting her wishes. So we think her prayers are potent, and Jesus will listen to her.

Much as when you pray for others, you hope he will listen to you, but how much more potent a request from a saint or mother.

But she is not a God , just a saint, and we ask her to pray for us, that is all.

So is the prayer that Valiant posted true?

 

[DesiredHaven]

There is a rabid type of Mary Catholic that's Mariolatry. There is potent reason to fear for their souls. It has struck me, over the years, for all the claims they're some unified faith, they have their sects and orders that are all over the map. They cop to the whole Catechism, then start specializing. I've known staunch Catholics who don't believe in Papal infallibility and chunks of the Catechism.

Revelation 2:20-21 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

Its Mary on steriods