stay a virgin until marriage .

[Shouryu]

There appears to be some misunderstanding of my reply to organicbeast.

Those of you who have professed your virginity...I AM NOT CONDEMNING YOUR VIRGINITY, nor am I condemning you for speaking of it.

I received a PM from one such member, claiming that I have accused everyone on the thread who was professed their virginity as being prideful. No, no, no. Please allow me to clarify...by reposting the clarification I already PM'd back to said member.

Trust me, I know that my walls of text can often lose something in translation. This isn't the first time I've had to clarify something.

-----------------

I apologize if this is how you interpreted my response to organicbeast. It certainly was not my intent to call out anyone, either vaguely or in specifics.

My intent was to hopefully have organicbeast, and anyone else reading, understand that while WE AS CHRISTIANS all understand each other, why we do the things we do, for Whom we do them...the world does NOT. I am not at ALL offended by ANY of you boasting in Christ about your virginity. I understand it. I could claim the same almost a decade ago. My point is that when you make it a point to boast in Christ about your virginity to people in the world, because they don't know Christ, because they don't understand how that makes sense...they miss the point of Christ's involvement altogether, and focus in on the one concept they DO understand, which is the virginity and our trumpeting of it (which is something that Christians commonly do...remember, I did the same once myself).

This was not about denigrating your virginity; recall that in BOTH posts, I said that virginity is GREAT, and I have quite a few things to write about it (but later, when I have time to really sit down and compose my thoughts on it). Trust me, I have some VERY encouraging words coming your way in a week or three! My post was about cautioning us about HOW we speak to the WORLD, and how the world views us in return. I never SAID that you or anyone else WAS prideful, I merely said that we must take care in how we present our virginity as a de facto point so that we do not APPEAR prideful. And I will directly quote my post (which you can double check and see), where I prefaced the modified Pharisee/Tax Collector parable with this sentence:

"It can be said in the correct way, absolutely, but far too often, THIS is what the world sees from virgin Christians who hold up their virginity as a trophy:"

I did not SAY you or anyone else was a Pharisee. What I said was, if you don't present it in a proper way (in all humility and total deference to Christ), then THE WORLD will see it as Pharisee-ical.

And I know this because I chose to live in the world for the better part of a decade, rather than choosing to follow Christ.

My post wasn't about shaming you (or anyone), nor was it about making you feel uncomfortable. It was about opportunities to witness, to minister, to testify...to people in THE WORLD. Having been that person in the world, Molly, I cannot tell you how many people lost in the world see Christians (for MANY reasons, of which virginity and purity is only one) as accusing, finger-pointing, shaming, damning hypocrites who only like to point out how much better they are, and how much the world needs to be fixed and how they're going to do it, because they're better than the world.

I know that's not actually the case. You know that's not actually the case. But that's how people lost in the world often interpret it when we are not careful. THAT'S my point. THAT'S what I care about. I want EVERY person who reads that thread to understand the worldly mindset, so that we don't make that mistake!

It was NEVER about shaming you. It was NEVER about calling you out.

---------------------

I hope that no one else felt accused or shamed. If that was the case, I sincerely hope that this clarification assuages any such feelings. Forgive me if you felt so.

 

[cmarieh]

I know for me personally, that I never intend to gloat about being pure. I know that some people that are pure feel as though it is a weakness to be a virgin in today's society and to be honest the media and our outside influences make it worse, one of the reasons why I choose not to watch tv much anymore. I state myself being pure to encourage others that it is okay and nothing to be ashamed of. I will not lie here, but I am proud that I can say that I will save it for my "husband" when that day shall come.

 

[jennymae]

This is wrong.

Wrong on sooooooooooo many different levels that I can't even explain everything.

This is just wrong. -.-

In fair CC, where we lay our scene...

 

[Roh_Chris]

In fair CC, where we lay our scene...

Ahem....

 

[organicbeast]

I think you misunderstand me. I am not advocating that someone who has lost their virginity outside of wedlock CONTINUE to engage in fornication. And just because one has indeed forfeited their virginity outside of wedlock does not doom them to do so again and again and again. To say such would be to deny the power of Christ in someone's life, to deny that indeed, Christ makes us a new creation.

I came back to Christ almost 4 years ago. The number of times I have had the opportunity to fornicate since then? MANY. The number of times I have done so? ZERO.

I think you misunderstood me also lol What you just said, I talked about that woman on pg4 where you quoted my post - in the last part of paragraph. It is very important for sin to be recognized as sin, otherwise complacency, excuses will continue and people want to shamelessly seek the grace of God for free without truly aligning their heart, mind and soul to God's opinion/thought. Believe me, I have done it too and I hate myself for it. God has not called us to be a bunch of sissies, but to be over comers of all sin in our life! Sin is not forgiven until the potential to commit 'that' sin is not that there anymore in the soul. Now my friend, that is the power of Christ! If any man or woman can do that, God bless them! And that's a new creation, nothing to do with the old mind.

The wages of sin is death, according to the apostle Paul. I see no disclaimers stating that, "Well, if you lie about something, God will forgive that. But if you commit adultery, you are definitely unforgiven." In fact, I seem to recall Christ showing no condemnation to an adulteress who was ashamed of her sin and fearful of her impending judgment.

Yahweh is HOLY. Sin is sin is sin. It is only in CHRIST can our shameful, sinful selves be in the presence of His Holiness. In light of God's holiness, sin is sin. Period.

Well, I never implied that you cannot be forgiven of adultery or fornication. In fact here are the scriptures, "Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men" [Matt 12:31] Yes it is true, the Light of Christ exposes the darkness in our souls.

Oh, I have no qualms with the statement. I have qualms with how some people hold their virginity like a trophy, when we are to be casting our crowns at Christ's feet. It can be said in the correct way, absolutely, but far too often, THIS is what the world sees from virgin Christians who hold up their virginity as a trophy:

Two people went up to the temple to pray, one a virgin, and one not. The virgin stood and prayed thus with himself, "God, I thank you that I am not like other men - fornicators, adulterers, or even like this man who I knew once lived with a woman he wasn't married to. I continue to save myself for marriage, and won't even associate with a man or woman who had sex out of wedlock." And the one who was not a virgin, standing afar off, would not even raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast and said, "God, be merciful to me, a sinner!"

When we speak with people in the world, people lost in sin, even young Christians who are just learning to turn from the ways of the world, we must make sure that we speak with LOVE. It easy to believe that one might be glorifying God when boasting about how they've NEVER done THIS sin, or THAT sin, but the world (as well as young Christians who are just coming away from the world) may only hear, "Look how much better I am than YOU! Look how much I did right, and you did WRONG! That's because of God, sure, but see how I did things right? And you did things wrong. Too bad you can't go back and undo them. Oh well! You can't be like me! Too bad!"

Well as you mentioned, "some virgins" I am sure not all of them are like that. That's crazy and way too obviously judgmental. I have a few non-Christian female friends with whom I have good friendship with. I don't care or judge their lifestyles. Everyone got their own lifestyle, principles and views on how they want to live their life right..., and the Lord clearly told us not to judge.

We are all sinners and the Lord has commanded us to Love one another. The spiritually strong have to support the spiritually weak as per the word of God and also out of Love like you said. ["Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins." Pro 10:12] If any man/woman is involved in fornication which is an illegal sexual act, the virgins and other members of the church should positively encourage, counsel and pray for them to turn away from that lifestyle, or get married if that is the will of God. It is quite stupid and also a sin to become judgmental as that seems to do nothing for the edification of the church or to people willing to come to the Lord and who are willing to turn away from their past sinful ways.

You see a virgin man or a woman cannot walk around in their daily lives at work, home or wherever etc, with a contemptuous judgmental attitude. You cannot make any socially meaningful, respectful and friendly relationships with people with that mindset. Both in the church and also outside in the world.

Your intent may be to glorify God, but there are other ways to glorify Him than boasting about our own accomplishments. Know your audience, for the world you try to save may only feel condemnation and shame, instead of LOVE and FORGIVENESS.

Sure there are many other ways to praise and glorify God, but it is also how the message is delivered and the intent behind it. If the real intent is to glorify oneself, then that is an utter sin and robbing God of His power and His Glory! That is a very shameful thing to do. If I intent to glorify God because of my accomplishments in "certain" areas/aspects of my life were only possible in Him and through Him, and through His wisdom - my boasting in the Lord should be an edification and inspiration for the weak. If my experience with God and my accomplishments in Him can inspire and assist a generation of young believers to abstain from fornication or any sin that I have gained mastery and overpowered through the grace of God then that is good. After all, isn't that that will of God? The goal here is to encourage and inspire & not condemn! When the apostles were going around performing all sorts of miracles and giving grace to God, I am not sure if people were feeling condemned, but amazed at the manifestation of the power of God through those men. Did the apostles say that they performed those miracles out of their own ability? No.

Again, I am going to say THAT I AM NOT AGAINST REMAINING A VIRGIN, AND THAT I HAVE MANY POSITIVE THINGS TO SAY ABOUT IT, WHICH I WILL GET TO LATER. I am against holding your own virginity up as a trophy and boasting about it, as if you are somehow superior to others who have not done so. Pride is the most dangerous thing a Christian can ever allow to take root.

Ya that is pretty stupid I think if one feels superior. Every human being that comes out of a mother's womb is conceived in sin. For all have sinned and fallen short of the grace of God. A virgin and a non-virgin both have the same carnal mind. Besides the sexual sin there are many other sins which a virgin has the potential to commit or have committed, including myself. Yes that is true, Pride is the most dangerous thing!

 

[organicbeast]

Man. It's a real good thing that Christ is able to forgive His bride (the church) of their past sins. Because if He exercised the right to choose who was worthy of His love and whom He would forgive of their past the way YOU do, I know for sure that all of us would be condemned to Hell for eternity.

You should read my initial response to Jamie26301 where I stated the kind of women I wanted! I am human, God gave me a choice and I hope I can exercise that right to make a choice? lol Also something to note that we cannot compare the Love of God and His Eternal stature to Human love. God says that He Himself is LOVE! That is very powerful!

 

[Roh_Chris]

Let's just move on.

 

[MollyConnor]

Let's just move on.

Aw no, poor horse!

 

[Misty77]

The problem with virginity (and its sister virtue "purity") is that it is a status that can either be maintained or forfeited. In most religious circles, the title of "virgin" has been put on a pedestal. While it's a good thing for those who have been able to maintain that qualification, it can be a point of shaming for those who aren't. Those who are no longer physical virgins because it was forced upon them should be given no reason to feel outcast or of less value. And elevating the status of virginity leaves out the redemptive power of Christ. After all, the whole story of the Bible is one of redemption--of sinful humanity and broken creation. It's a title that the fallen and repentant are barred from claiming.

On the other hand, sexual holiness (celibacy for the singles) is a choice. I would respect someone more for stating, "I am celibate," than for declaring their virginity. The latter could be no more than a lack of opportunity while the former is a conscious decision on how they live their lives.

 

[seoulsearch]

Fair chance that anyone who reaches their late teens without ever having had a date is either ugly, boring or cult-ish.
Going out socially with a person of the opposite sex is simply a healthy and helpful part of growing up.
Sexual activity does not have to be part of it.

But then again, I reckon anyone still a virgin at 30 (maried or single) probably does have a problem.

Again, I say, KNOW YOUR AUDIENCE.

If you had looked over Pumicestone's profile, you would see that he is listed as "not Christian." So, it is unlikely that he would carry a Biblical view on sexual mores. With said information, it is understandable that he would answer thusly, as it is the general response the world gives.

So, here is our chance to not dangle our faith (or our virginity) over someone's head as a Pharisee-ical robe of distinction, but instead show love and patience and inform him why we wouldn't see things that way.

Also, Pharisee-ical is totally a word. Because I said so.

Just read this reply...

Yup, I read Pumicestone's profile after I made my post and before I read your reply, Shour. I saw that he lists himself as not a Christian and interestingly, seems to post almost exclusively in the Bible Discussion Forum. I am going to respectfully and slightly disagree.

Had I read his profile before I posted, I would have still made my same post, but just would have left God and the Bible out of it.

I would have simply stated that saying anyone who hasn't had a date by their late teens and/or is a virgin later in life an ugly, boring, cult member is just plain rude and uncalled for.

I may be seen as weird in that I don't automatically assume anyone who is not a Christian can't be civil, polite, or reasonable to others. I understand the world sees things differently but I don't believe that being a non-Christian excuses a person from having basic manners, especially when they claim to be 69 years old.

Christian or not, any sane human being has to know how insulting a comment like that is to others, especially when we have so many younger brothers and sisters here waiting to go on their first date, and, heaven (or the fates, for all our non-Christian friends) forbid, according to this guy, they might actually be older than 16.

 

[Siberian_Khatru]

Christian or not, any sane human being has to know how insulting a comment like that is to others...

So you're implying he's insane? NOW who's rude??

 

[seoulsearch]

So you're implying he's insane? NOW who's rude??

I read these forums and often wonder if there's ANY sanity left here at all.

My own included.

*hugs Siberian*

 

[Desdichado]

It just had to be said.

If biology and sin work together to cloud your judgment and you happen to have sex before you are married, it doesn't make you a second-class citizen.

Can it wreck your life in profound ways? Absolutely. Does it alter your emotional being? Yes. Are you better off not having sex before marriage? Without question. Is it a sin? Contrary to popular belief, it is.

God can restore what is broken, though. Virginity is but a part of the ultimate goal- holiness.

 

[PopClick]

Isn't there a point where talking about one's virginity (to those who might ridicule and insult you for it) becomes casting pearls before swine?

~~~~~

This subject (I'm not talking about this thread in particular, just the topic) seems to quickly and easily turn into a "look at me!" fest, and I understand why I have heard so many people say that virgins are prideful and have a sense of entitlement. Of course not all virgins are that way! But the loudest ones are the ones who are known as virgins and therefore those are the ones people think of when they think of people who are saving themselves for marriage. It's frustrating on several levels.

I have also written and deleted at least one response to this thread because I don't want to insult anyone, and this seems to be a subject that so many people take so personally. I don't want to diminish anybody's accomplishments or the grace of God, but I wish people would stop using virginity to categorize themselves or define anyone as "good". Because you know what? Nobody is "good".

I don't want anybody to think that I'm just saying these things because I'm bitter, so I will say that I am also a virgin. I'm just one who doesn't talk about it constantly! There are proper reasons to mention virginity (such as encouraging a younger sister in Christ that it is possible to remain pure, and giving her advice about how to do that), but overall, generally speaking, why does any random person need to know that any other random person is a virgin? The simple answer is that they do not.

Just wanted to add, I might even have more respect for someone who came to Christ later in life and committed themselves to living His way thereafter. That sounds even harder to me, because they would be changing habits and losing friends that they were already used to, and besides... virgins don't exactly know what they're missing, you know?

 

[Tintin]

Fair chance that anyone who reaches their late teens without ever having had a date is either ugly, boring or cult-ish.
Going out socially with a person of the opposite sex is simply a healthy and helpful part of growing up.
Sexual activity does not have to be part of it.

But then again, I reckon anyone still a virgin at 30 (married or single) probably does have a problem.

Wow. You're a horrible person to suggest such things of people. I'm certainly not God's gift to women, but I wouldn't consider myself ugly, boring or cult-ish. I lacked confidence, after being rejected a few times (and many more times since high school). That's it. But confidence is key. It's something I'm still working on - confidence in Christ.

 

[Faithful_Fay]

Just wanted to add, I might even have more respect for someone who came to Christ later in life and committed themselves to living His way thereafter. That sounds even harder to me, because they would be changing habits and losing friends that they were already used tto, and besides... virgins don't exactly know what they're missing, you know?

This line of thinking always makes me wince I don't think we have to experience it in order to "miss" it. In this day and age, it's fairly difficult to avoid figuring out what intimacy consists of. And in most cases, older folk who are waiting are perfectly aware but still consistently make a decision to wait for God's preferred path.

I don't normally share my waiting status with people, but it's simply because I'm a private person and this decision is between myself and God.

 

[PopClick]

This line of thinking always makes me wince I don't think we have to experience it in order to "miss" it. In this day and age, it's fairly difficult to avoid figuring out what intimacy consists of. And in most cases, older folk who are waiting are perfectly aware but still consistently make a decision to wait for God's preferred path.

I don't normally share my waiting status with people, but it's simply because I'm a private person and this decision is between myself and God.

Haha, no, I agree with you. I meant that it would likely be harder to suddenly go without sex after experiencing it than to never experience it, and that I have a lot of respect for single folks who go through that after coming to Christ.

But yes, I get it.

 

[Reborn]

Just wanted to add, I might even have more respect for someone who came to Christ later in life and committed themselves to living His way thereafter. That sounds even harder to me, because they would be changing habits and losing friends that they were already used to, and besides... virgins don't exactly know what they're missing, you know?

You're the first person l have ever seen, or heard, acknowledge that.

 

[jamie26301]

If biology and sin work together to cloud your judgment and you happen to have sex before you are married, it doesn't make you a second-class citizen.

See, this is one thing that doesn't make sense to me. It something Jesus Himself said is one reason it doesn't.

I mentioned this earlier, but why would God design you such, and then expect you to suppress it? Sex for sport or money, is understandable, but why would it be suppressed for love, even outside marriage? What in the established institution of marriage in Genesis is the requirement for sex between two people?

In the dystopian book The Giver, they had a really tight family unit, and the children told their parents everything at the dinner table. Once they express strange new feelings, they are prescribed a pill to suppress urges. That was ideal, to keep the children from hurting themselves with pregnancies and such - shielding them from harm was valued more than freedom and self-discovery.

I can see there being restrictions and limits, no doubt. However, God programs us this way, and He doesn't withhold those urges until we're married. And yet, we should conquer them, the very design He put in us even as we experience them... to MAYBE experience them without restriction in the bounds of marriage. (not all have the blessing of marriage)

So, is God tempting us, with our own bodies? God does not tempt anyone, we remember, and a kingdom divided against itself doesn't stand. So, does it stand to reason that God wants to drive out God? Is that like God fighting against His own design, in such a demand?

I'm not saying that it's right per say, but what I am saying is that it doesn't seem to make sense, from that perspective for a piece of paper and a pair of rings to be the difference between do and don't. Or a ceremony, nonetheless.

God can restore what is broken, though. Virginity is but a part of the ultimate goal- holiness.

Most certainly.

 

[jamie26301]

This line of thinking always makes me wince I don't think we have to experience it in order to "miss" it. In this day and age, it's fairly difficult to avoid figuring out what intimacy consists of.

I think you are mistaken here, at least by my experience. Sure, you know the mechanics of it. But sex is so much more than what goes where, or even the dept of feeling you hear in love songs.

I have been intimate before my husband. But I didn't know intimacy until my husband - I mean, there were warm fuzzies before, but this is like really fluid, warm, and comforting - I feel safe and completely free to be open and myself. Not self conscious about my body, or any of that stuff.

Like I said before, sex is not sex - there IS "eh" and "that was nice" and "wow!" you know, there are distinctions between experiences. I don't suggest sampling a different guy every weekend or anything, lol, but no... as one who even engaged in intimacy, I didn't know it until my husband.

And in most cases, older folk who are waiting are perfectly aware but still consistently make a decision to wait for God's preferred path.

There are other ways to connect with someone on very deep levels other than physically. I don't doubt that one could feel a strong, beautiful love no matter how it comes in relationship (friend, family member, significant other), but I just feel you're over simplifying that a bit. Just my feelings.

Blessings!