Why such hatred for the seventh day?

[sparkman]

Funny, I have never said that and Herbert Armstrong has been dead for over 29 years. You still using that as a crutch?

This is easily resolved.

You can simply answer these questions. When I say "true believer" I mean a person who has a current relationship with God and Jesus Christ...a person who has placed his faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, and someone that God has given salvation to.

1. Can a true believer deny that Saturday Sabbathkeeping is a condition of salvation?

2. Would you say that some Sunday keeping Christians are true believers?

3. Do you believe the Trinity doctrine, which teaches that God is one Being or Essence yet Three Persons, eternally?

4. If you don't believe the Trinity doctrine, do you hold to the teaching that God is a family into which
believers can be born at the resurrection?

Herbert Armstrong taught that no Sunday keeping Christians are believers, and that Christians were God beings in embryonic state. In the resurrection, they would be full-fledged God beings, and belong to the family of Elohim or God.

Do you continue to believe his teachings in this regard? If not, what do you believe on these two beliefs? I would really be interested in knowing. If you can phrase your answers in a clear, non-evasive manner, I would appreciate it.

Please remember that my first contact with you was on the Testimonies forum where you accused me of being deceived by the individuals who exposed the bad doctrines of Herbert Armstrong.

 

[oldthennew]

anytime we leave our first beliefs that our Father called us to receive and those who shared and informed us of them -
that resulted in our believing and observing with our whole hearts heavenly truths that can never be denied -
satan will always try and get us to deny, for he absolutely hates our love and dedication to what we hold fast and true
and he will do everything in his power to negate our loving, heart-felt dedications and observances of such -

his whole will is to destroy our hearts and to separate us from God's reality and from His chosen -

our lifes work is to work out our own salvation with what our Father has given us - with fear and trembling.....

tread softly brother, remember your first loving truths given in truth and hold them fast and hard -

 

[sparkman]

anytime we leave our first beliefs that our Father called us to receive and those who shared and informed us of them -
that resulted in our believing and observing with our whole hearts heavenly truths that can never be denied -
satan will always try and get us to deny, for he absolutely hates our love and dedication to what we hold fast and true
and he will do everything in his power to negate our loving, heart-felt dedications and observances of such -

his whole will is to destroy our hearts and to separate us from God's reality and from His chosen -

our lifes work is to work out our own salvation with what our Father has given us - with fear and trembling.....

tread softly brother, remember your first loving truths given in truth and hold them fast and hard -

If you're talking about the abovementioned heresies, I rejoice in the liberation I've experienced from false doctrine

 

[JaumeJ]

Are you talking to me? I hear it, and it is good advice for all who love the Savior, Yeshua,. Thank you for caring enought to share this.

anytime we leave our first beliefs that our Father called us to receive and those who shared and informed us of them -
that resulted in our believing and observing with our whole hearts heavenly truths that can never be denied -
satan will always try and get us to deny, for he absolutely hates our love and dedication to what we hold fast and true
and he will do everything in his power to negate our loving, heart-felt dedications and observances of such -




his whole will is to destroy our hearts and to separate us from God's reality and from His chosen -

our lifes work is to work out our own salvation with what our Father has given us - with fear and trembling.....

tread softly brother, remember your first loving truths given in truth and hold them fast and hard -

 

[john832]

This is easily resolved.

You can simply answer these questions. When I say "true believer" I mean a person who has a current relationship with God and Jesus Christ...a person who has placed his faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, and someone that God has given salvation to.

1. Can a true believer deny that Saturday Sabbathkeeping is a condition of salvation?

Can a true believer deny that not murdering is a condition of salvation?

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

John writes here that those who KEEP the Commandments are given the right to the tree of life and yes the fourth Commandment is one of those Commandments.

You seem to want to separate out ONE of the Commandments and say it si not necessary to keep it. If it is unnecessary to keep the fourth one, what about the third or fifth? Can one take God's holy name in vain, use it in all sorts of filthy communication and still be in the Kingdom?

What about dishonoring your parents?

Eph 6:1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.
Eph 6:2 Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise
Eph 6:3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.
Eph 6:4 And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.

Paul seemed to think it was still in effect.

2. Would you say that some Sunday keeping Christians are true believers?

No, they are in the same category as those who break any of the other nine Commandments.

Would you believe that a liar is a true believer?

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

How about those who bow down to idols? how about adulterers? Those who practice Wicca or participate in séances? Are they true believers?

Those who ignore and break the Commandments without repenting are not true believers.

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Breaking any of the Ten Commandments is a sin.

Please answer for all of us here whether you believe one can ignore and willfully break any of the Ten Commandments and be a converted Christian.

3. Do you believe the Trinity doctrine, which teaches that God is one Being or Essence yet Three Persons, eternally?

No, I do not. If the trinity doctrine is true, who died? If God is one in three phases (Yep, I endured the Nature of God tapes from K. J. Stavrinides).

Who was on earth and who was in heaven? How did the Father forsake Christ while He was on the stake?

Here is an interesting question for you, in every epistle in the New Testament, Paul sends a greeting from the Father and Christ and the Holy Spirit is NEVER mentioned. Hmmm if the Holy Spirit is a person, why did Paul snub him?

4. If you don't believe the Trinity doctrine, do you hold to the teaching that God is a family into which
believers can be born at the resurrection?

Yes I do, don't you?

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

God is making man after His image and LIKENESS. What does it mean to be like Christ?

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

You don't believe you will be LIKE Christ? You think you will be something different?

Eph 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Eph 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

Maybe you don't believe that we are the family of God, Paul did and so do I.

Herbert Armstrong taught that no Sunday keeping Christians are believers, and that Christians were God beings in embryonic state. In the resurrection, they would be full-fledged God beings, and belong to the family of Elohim or God.

Do you continue to believe his teachings in this regard? If not, what do you believe on these two beliefs? I would really be interested in knowing. If you can phrase your answers in a clear, non-evasive manner, I would appreciate it.

Seems to me that I have not ever left any doubt about what I believe but just for you, I have restated the truth from scripture.

Please remember that my first contact with you was on the Testimonies forum where you accused me of being deceived by the individuals who exposed the bad doctrines of Herbert Armstrong.

You have been deceived by those who led the church into apostasy. The Tkach's, Feazel, Albrecht and company led the church away from truth and sound doctrine.

Hope these answers are clear enough and straightforward enough for you. I try not to leave any doubt about what I know to be truth.

 

[JesusIsAll]

People have a choice. False prophets, like Ellen White, or the word of God. Heaven help those who don't choose the latter. John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Galatians 4:9-11 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

Galatians 5:1-6 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.

Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Romans 3:20-24 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

Romans 7:4-6 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Colossians 2:16-17 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Romans 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Galatians 5:16-18 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

 

[just-me]

Is a person really under the law if they search it, and observe it in Spirit, or are those who label others as being under the law think it's sinful "because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be"? Romans 8:7

 

[prove-all]

Galatians 4:9-11 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

.

I higly disagree about this verse, weak and beggarly elements ,

it is not talking about Gods Holy convocations

 

[Jeff_56]

hasatan has hated all of yahweh's instructions and blessings and people ever since adam and havah....

and since most all the world is under the prince of the power of the air,

thus, most all the world hates all of yahweh's instructions and blessings and people too....

 

[JesusIsAll]

I higly disagree about this verse, weak and beggarly elements ,

it is not talking about Gods Holy convocations

Well, you're wrong. The Galatians had come under the influence of Judaizers. There are plenty of other verses cited, as to the law and the position of the Christian in Christ. You believe the Bible, or you don't. Of course, people who are under the influence of a false gospel and writings of cult false prophets believe the lies, don't believe things clear in the Bible. What else is new?

 

[thecreationtutor]

hopefully it's the same as the hate for mother and sister as comparison to love for Jesus

Any love for the sabbath that puts it as a justification for myself - which ultimately detracts from the finished work of Christ - should be hated

 

[just-me]

hopefully it's the same as the hate for mother and sister as comparison to love for Jesus

Any love for the sabbath that puts it as a justification for myself - which ultimately detracts from the finished work of Christ - should be hated

To reject the Sabbath, as it was originally intended, takes our thoughts away from doing God's work, and ultimately leads to being proud of the work that we do without recognizing that we cannot do anything without Him. There is no way to keep it holy by doing our own thing, and then call it righteous because it's religious.

 

[michael56]

I don't hate the seventh day, but I am saddened by those who insist everyone observes a Saturday Sabbath. In my view they have not come into the fulness of the christian faith. Have a Saturday as your specific Sabbath if that is what you want to do, but don't insist everyone must do the same.

 

[just-me]

I don't hate the seventh day, but I am saddened by those who insist everyone observes a Saturday Sabbath. In my view they have not come into the fulness of the christian faith. Have a Saturday as your specific Sabbath if that is what you want to do, but don't insist everyone must do the same.

All I see is that the Sabbath days center around the feasts. This 7 day observance was centered around the giving of manna. That was the 2nd month of the Hebrews year right in the middle of the feast of weeks. Maybe someone can show me a scripture that says there will be a Sabbath day every week all year long. Really. I could have very well missed that. I do know that Sabbaths (plural being more than one) are clearly mentioned in the feast that are for us to remember and rehearse what God has done, and what He will do, and glorify His holy name. They were made for us as a time to keep these things holy. (pure in Spirit)

 

[Grandpa]

I higly disagree about this verse, weak and beggarly elements ,

it is not talking about Gods Holy convocations

Hebrews 7:18-19
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

 

[just-me]

Hebrews 7:18-19
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

The line of thought begins with verse 17. This relates directly to the Aaronic priesthood, and not the complete Torah. Paul is saying clearly that the last priesthood replaces the first from Levi and now to Judah. This is a confirmation of prophecy to the Jews, proving to them that Jesus Christ is the true Messiah that they were looking for.

[SUP]17 [/SUP]For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. Hebrews is a book that is addressing the Jews so that they could understand that the priesthood had changed to the order of Melchisedec.

 

[Grandpa]

The line of thought begins with verse 17. This relates directly to the Aaronic priesthood, and not the complete Torah. Paul is saying clearly that the last priesthood replaces the first from Levi and now to Judah. This is a confirmation of prophecy to the Jews, proving to them that Jesus Christ is the true Messiah that they were looking for.

[SUP]17 [/SUP]For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. Hebrews is a book that is addressing the Jews so that they could understand that the priesthood had changed to the order of Melchisedec.

The line of thought begins in verse 12.

Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

What is the change to the law? Answer;

Hebrews 7:18-19
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Hebrews is addressing the jews so they could know that the law they tried to follow couldn't make them perfect. It was weak and unprofitable in that regard.

This New Way, this Better Hope, is what perfects us. Ironically, giving us rest (sabbath) from working at these commandments, carnally, in the flesh.

 

[Grandpa]

Isn't it Ironic?

Its like rain, on my sabbath day...

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

The carnal keeping of the sabbath was a schoolmaster to teach what the true Rest that only Christ gives would be.

 

[just-me]

The line of thought begins in verse 12.

Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

What is the change to the law? Answer;

Hebrews 7:18-19
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Hebrews is addressing the jews so they could know that the law they tried to follow couldn't make them perfect. It was weak and unprofitable in that regard.

This New Way, this Better Hope, is what perfects us. Ironically, giving us rest (sabbath) from working at these commandments, carnally, in the flesh.

It was the sacrificial temple ordinance laws that Christ fulfilled for the remission of sins. This represents all of the things that the Levitical priesthood was responsible for in the Old Covenant. Love is now the law described first in Leviticus 19 and Deuteronomy 6 and confirmed by Christ. Through Christ Jesus, this capability is given for us to fulfill. Of course there are more instructions defining God's agape love in both Old and New Testament laws that are our response because He loved us first.

 

[MarcR]

It was the sacrificial temple ordinance laws that Christ fulfilled for the remission of sins. This represents all of the things that the Levitical priesthood was responsible for in the Old Covenant. Love is now the law described first in Leviticus 19 and Deuteronomy 6 and confirmed by Christ. Through Christ Jesus, this capability is given for us to fulfill. Of course there are more instructions defining God's agape love in both Old and New Testament laws that are our response because He loved us first.

It was the entire Law that Jesus fulfilled perfectly on our behalf; because we are imperfect and unable to keep it ourselves.

Ro 8:1-11

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
KJV