OSAS doctrine denies the faith

Viligant_Warrior · May 20, 2015

The only heresies being preached here are yours, ISIT's and SeaBass'. You are the ones who need to repent. You post your lies knowing they will not be accepted and not caring that they produce strife, anger, vitriolic responses, and derision. Is that the ministry you really want to be known for -- lies that divide instead of truth that unites?

And are you like Pilate? "What is truth?" he asked.

Truth is Jude 24, John 10:28, 29, and Romans 8:38, 39. There is no equivocation in the words of Jude, the half-brother of Jesus, or of Jesus Himself, nor in Paul. But the three of you lie, twist, obfuscate, deny truth in favor of a lie.

I stopped replying to you a long time ago. Your doctrine is useless, the lies of Satan. But you called me out with your simpering post, referencing someone else's condemnation of another member who, like myself, adheres to and believes God's truth that the believer is eternally secure. You didn't have the nerve to call me a heretic yourself. You're pathetic.

eternally-gratefull · May 20, 2015

SeaBass said:

lol.. No. If osas was faith in man, he would never claim it could not be lost. for man is imperfect. anything based on man is flawed and not perfect.

Sounds like your teaching, a salvation which is no salvation at all. A faith which is no faith at all. because it is based on men, not God.

sometimes you people do not think, if you would actually think, you would not make such amazing statments which make no sense.

Skinski7 · May 20, 2015

notuptome said:

God's grace saves through the mechanism of obedience to the truth (ie. saved by grace through faith, for grace quickens our inward parts as we yield to what it teaches, hence the implanted word saves the soul).

First of all the grace of God that brings salvation teaches us the way we ought to go...

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Secondly, it is obedience to the truth through the Spirit which purifies the soul whereby we love one another with a pure heart fervently.

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

The above is what grace is meant to produce. If the above is not produced through one "working together with God" whereby we are "made the righteousness of God in Him" then grace is simply received in vain.

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
2Co 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

This is why there is no "righteousness of the law being fulfilled in those" whom walk not after the Spirit.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

A petition that a denial of "grace serving as a cloak for ongoing wickedness" is a denial of grace is simply ludicrous. I make a post about how it is ESSENTIAL that we WALK after the Spirit and your response is that such a thing is a denial of God's ability to save and a denial of trusting God. How your mind twists the things which are so simple to understand.

eternally-gratefull · May 20, 2015

InSpiritInTruth said:

No. not true. How could a true and living faith ever die?

if it dies. it was because it was no faith at all. it was mere belief. It is not even your faith, it is Gods.

God has no power in your gospel. he is dead, or asleep or something. but he is not the omnipresent, omniscient, perfect loving God he claims he is.

eternally-gratefull · May 20, 2015

InSpiritInTruth said:

No.

Eternal security (what you call OSAS) is based on the perfect living faith. not on some mere belief, of which some can fall away. if I have just mental agreement (belief) of course my faith can fail. But that will never save you to begin with, it takes a full assurance (living faith) in the work of Christ. Not a dead faith in your own works. which you are trusting.

dcontroversal · May 20, 2015

SeaBass said:

Pull up a post where I called u a name...I may have said slice, or dude or Sea Perch and have referenced the MAN who had a great deal of INFLUENCE on your COC belief which DOES INFLUENCE YOUR BELIEF just like Charles Russell Started Jehovah's Witness, or Joseph Smith and Mormonism...your religion is no difference....

and to be quite frank, you are somewhat delusional.....many on this site have rolled right over your misapplied quotes, rejection of verb tenses, rejection of the definition of words and denial of context to the point that they and we have determined it does not good to cast the truth out into the hog pen for you and your cronies to trample it under foot.......

The bible is clear....

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ & you shall be saved.

I give them eternal life and they shall never perish.

God so loved the world that He gave his unique Son that
whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Rom 1:16-17
For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written, But the righteous shall live by faith.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER][/FONT]

Rom 3:21-30

But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction;

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

[All them who believer, rules out any other thing essential besides believe.]

for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; 24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God; for the showing, I say, of his righteousness at this present season: that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him that hath faith in Jesus.
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Where then is the glorying? It is excluded. By what manner of law? of works? Nay: but by a law of faith. 28 We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yea, of Gentiles also: 30 if so be that God is one, and he shall justify the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through faith.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Rom 4:1ff

What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, hath found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not toward God. For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Now to him who works, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt. 5 But to him that works not, but believeth on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Even as David also pronounces blessing upon the man, to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works, 7 saying,
Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered.
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not reckon sin.

Is this blessing then pronounced upon the circumcision, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say, To Abraham his faith was reckoned for righteousness.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
How then was it reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision: 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while he was in uncircumcision: that he might be the father of all them who believe, though they be in uncircumcision, that righteousness might be reckoned unto them; 12 and the father of circumcision to them who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham which he had in uncircumcision. 13 For not through the law was the promise to Abraham or to his seed that he should be heir of the world, but through the righteousness of faith.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

For if they that are of the law are heirs, faith is made void, and the promise is made of none effect: 15 for the law works wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there transgression. 16 For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace; to the end that the promise may be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all
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(as it is written, A father of many nations have I made thee) before him whom he believed, even God, who giveth life to the dead, and calleth the things that are not, as though they were. 18 Who in hope believed against hope, to the end that he might become a father of many nations, according to that which had been spoken, So shall thy seed be. 19 And without being weakened in faith he considered his own body now as good as dead (he being about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb; 20 yet, looking unto the promise of God, he wavered not through unbelief, but waxed strong through faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully assured that what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 Wherefore also it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Rom 5:1-2
Being therefore justified by faith, let us have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; through whom also we have had our access by faith into this grace wherein we stand; and let us boast in hope of the glory of God.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Rom 9:30:
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who followed not after righteousness, attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith: but Israel, following after a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by works. They stumbled at the stone of stumbling; even as it is written,
Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence:
And he who believes on him shall not be put to shame.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Rom 10:4ff

For Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to everyone who believes.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

[EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES rules out anything essential added to faith.]

For Moses writeth that the man that doeth the righteousness which is of the law shall live thereby. But the righteousness which is of faith says thus, Say not in thy heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down or, Who shall descend into the abyss? (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Cor 1:21
it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save them that believe.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

dcontroversal · May 20, 2015

And more to boot.....you guys need to open your eyes to the truth before you wake up in a liquid deprived place with higher than normal temps.........!

The natural man cannot know, discern and or spiritually understand the word of God as it is foolishness unto him and he cannot KNOW IT.
. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God
. In the grace you are having been saved out of FAITH<--salvation is the result of faith (out of faith)
. Being saved allows for being transformed by the renewing of the mind that you may put to the test what is that good and acceptable will of GOD
. By having number 1, thru 4 a person is
a. Born from above and has the spirit so as to compare spiritual with spiritual and can now understand the word of God and how to apply it
b. Can now do number 4 on the list and begin to be transform outside because of the transformation on the inside (Trasformed <---comes from a Greek word that we get metamorphoses from) Change outside because of the change inward....a buttery fly is a caterpillar and is changed into a butterfly due to metamorphoses
C. A man that is saved by faith which is born from above who has begun to take the word of God and understand what it means and how to apply it can in turn begin to grow and produce fruit and do the works that have already been prepared before the casting down of the world........

A man that is already SAVED by FAITH, having had the righteousness of GOD imputed by faith as a gift (saved, born again), who is now sanctified in Christ (positionally) and sealed with the HOLY SPIRIT of God, can now and only now begin to understand the word which will shape, form and fashion him after the workings of CHRIST. Then and only then can they do the works that were prepared for the ALREADY CHILDREN OF GOD BY FAITH.

The just shall love by faith......
But with out faith (a clear spiritual gift 1st Corinthians 13) it is impossible to please God......

What is first on the list.......FAITH=HOPE--->RESULTS IN LOVE (this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments and his commandments are not heard to bear (love God and love your neighbor)

It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that BELIEVE (first on the list is faith (believe=save)
If you believe in you heart that God has raised him from the dead thou shalt be saved (Faith first on the list (believe=saved)

Jason0047 · May 20, 2015

eternally-gratefull said:

Well, insults aside, Scripture makes it clear that without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14). So even if you believe works must show forth a true faith , you still have the holiness issue to contend with. For you believe a saint can still sin and still be saved right? Also, if my memory serves me correctly, you were in strong disagreement with me on 1 John 1:9 in what it says. For it says, if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. So is that what you believe? What about 1 John 1:7 and 1 John 2:4?

Joshua_Generation · May 20, 2015

dcontroversal said:

Honest question DC, as a believer, can you lose faith to the point you deny Jesus Christ and never come back?

Take a look at someone named Charles Templeton, who was a greater Evangelist than Billy Graham and both of them were great friends, until Templeton left his faith. He died back in 2001 ,but not before writing a book called Farewell to God: My Reasons for Rejecting the Christian Faith. Billy Graham said Templeton was one of the most God fearing Evangelists of his time, until he went to Seminary at Princeton.

Many dismiss Templeton as not ever really being saved, but can a man that is not saved personally lead other men to Jesus Christ?

You will never lose your salvation by failing to do works like praying, going to church or reading the Word. There aredenominations that do believe this and they are wrong.

However, I do believe the scriptures do show us that you can shipwreck your faith and deny the Lord Jesus Christ and never recover. Jesus said as much, he that denies me, I will deny him before the Father[Matt 10.33]

I am only asking because I am trying to see where these folks are coming from. Many of the hardened Atheists I know, got that way because they once believed and something happened to their faith and they left the faith and began teaching against Christ and 1 John 2.7-11 tells us that anyone that does not abide in the teaching of Christ does not have God.

Hell is the separation between man and God.

InSpiritInTruth · May 20, 2015

dcontroversal said:

See there, just as I said in the OP, denying the words of God because they say they don't apply to them, or they are out of context, or that's not in the original manuscripts, or that's a bad translation or interpretation, yada, yada, yada. That is called denying the words of God!

Sirk · May 20, 2015

Works are a symptom of an eternally secure saved by grace grateful heart.

JesusIsAll · May 20, 2015

eternally-gratefull said:

This is what is literally ridiculous of what goes on of some of these people, day in and day out. They deny truths the Holy Spirit affirms in all born again believers, the simplest, fundamental gospel. It's plain as day. They have no eyes to see, or ears to hear. Cats are going to be chasing tails, until some come to the foot of the cross.

This is not discussion, or even debate, when there are those who don't even grasp the fundamentals. It's not Christianity being discussed, from the other end of most conversations. You won't have an intelligent conversation with somebody who doesn't understand the topic, just as you'd not have much of a fruitful conversation about brain surgery, with a supermarket butcher.

Jeff_56 · May 20, 2015

InSpiritInTruth said:

very true. not just 'dcotrines' denying the WORD of GOD, but most posters/or most posts do also - as do

most of all the world. there's not enough time and manpower, even if it was wanted, to properly police/ moderate a forum like this to keep it "on the straight and narrow" ---

and so it is buyer (reader) beware; test everything, especially on this forum, because the whitewashed tombs still* outnumber the true disciples of jesus....

*"still" as in , as they have since jesus walked the earth as a man.... and said "woe to the popular" .... and "blessed are you if you are outcasts for My Name's Sake" .....

DesiredHaven · May 20, 2015

Skinski7 said:

If one does not provide (ie. serve) those whom they profess to love (especially immediate family) that one has obviously denied the faith which is established upon love. Such a person professing to be a Christian is worse than an infidel because of the hypocrisy involved and thus ought to be rebuked openly before the congregation. It is a very serious matter for sin service to be found in the church, not only for the dire state of the individual involved but for the effect it will have on those around them (ie. it draws others into sin).

Being disobedient unto every good work is simply an allusion to professed righteousness. A good example would be a Christian charity worker who is still engaged in all manner of vile sin in secret. Israel was serves us as an example of such in the words of Isaiah...

Isa 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

A statement Jesus referred to in...

Mat 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
Mat 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Mat 15:10 And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:
Mat 15:11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
Mat 15:12 Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?
Mat 15:13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
Mat 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
Mat 15:15 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.
Mat 15:16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?
Mat 15:17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
Mat 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
Mat 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
Mat 15:20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

The issue that matters is the hearts of men. If one has an appearance of righteousness outwardly but whose heart is still corrupt then the appearance of righteousness means nothing, nothing at all. The appearance of righteousness is simply a witness to hypocrisy. At least an open sinner, without an appearance of righteousness, is not hiding something and is thus less likely to be self deceived when confronted with the truth.

A pure heart is intrinsically connected to a genuine faith. No pure heart = no genuine faith, for genuine faith purifies the heart (Act 15:9).

Yeah, Jesus said even sinners love those that love them back such a family members where requiting ones parents would be natural so if they cant do what even sinners can in this matter I can definately see how one is worse then an infidel in not fulfilling this duty according to the faith.

Jeff_56 · May 20, 2015

p.s. the supermarket butcher is ten thousand times safer for most of the population than a brain surgeon and his ilk.....

JesusIsAll · May 20, 2015

eternally-gratefull said:

The statements wouldn't be made, had they the Holy Spirit. The spiritually discerned things of God make no sense to them.

Jason0047 · May 20, 2015

Viligant_Warrior said:

Okay, I am not really understanding what your belief on Jude actually is. Are you saying that it supports a "sin and still be saved" doctrine? If so, where exactly does it state that? If that is not what you are stating and if that is not what you believe, then please kindly explain what you do believe in regards to sin and salvation. For can a believer commit suicide and still be saved? Can a believer die in unrepentant sin and still be saved? Can a believer be out of fellowship with God and still be saved?

As for you desiring me to call you a bad name: Well, that is not what God would want me to do.
God wants me to love you and to help show you the Scriptures in what they plainly say.

Sirk · May 20, 2015

Jeff_56 said:

You mean the ones vying for their seat next to Jesus because they are so so good?

Gotta love the masochistic martyr syndrome displayed by the self absorbed by their own goodness crowd.

SeaBass · May 20, 2015

Viligant_Warrior said:

Not one here has proven OSAS to be true from the bible.

Verses misused, added to and/or pulled out of context:

--Jude 24 says God is ABLE to keep you from falling not that He will unconditionally guarantee to keep you from falling otherwise Jude's command to "keep yourselves in the love of God" v21 makes no sense if God is going to force one to remain in His love unconditionally. As long as the Christian continues to CONDITIONALLY obey the will of God, the Christian will not fall, 1 Jn 1:7.

---John 10:27 gets left out for it tells WHO God holds in His hand and WHY God will not allow them to be snatched away.

The WHO God holds in His hand are Christ's sheep, the ones that are faithful in their hearing and following Christ. And their faithful hearing and following is the reason WHY God will not allow them to be snatched out of His hand, they are faithful to God and in turn God is faithful to them not to let them be snatched out of his hand and OSAS is not to be found in the context at all. No verse says God has an unconditional obligation to remain faithful to those that become unfaithful to Him in their hearing and following.

---Rom 8:38,39 lists things external to the Christian, the Christian himself can remove himself from the love the God therefore Jude commands the Christian "keep yourselves in the love of God" is pointless and baseless if it were impossible for the Christian to remove himself from the love of God.

You will never prove OSAS by pulling verse out of context or added presuppositions to these texts. Will you repent of your wresting of scripture?

dcontroversal · May 20, 2015

Joshua_Generation said:

The denying Christ is indicative or a total rejection and or denial of the work of Christ which is a state of unbelief and were never saved to begin with.

Yes a person can make shipwreck of their faith, ruin their witness and be a vessel of dishonor with works of wood, hay and stubble yet will still be saved yet so as by fire....

Jesus said that if we believe not (after we have believed) he remains FAITHFUL as he cannot deny HIMSELF...

The truth is simple...Hebrews states clearly that it is IMPOSSIBLE to be renewed if it were possible to fall away by a sin or sins or a lack of work.....by their very doctrine (the deceivers in this thread) they will all end up lost because NO one can 100% of the time do everything right before the throne of God, keep every law that God has given and never sin so as to keep or maintain their salvation!

My bible is clear...WHATSOEVER GOD DOES IT IS ETERNAL<--NOTHING ADDED or TAKEN AWAY FROM IT.....It is GOD that saves US...not we ourselves and whatsoever APPLIES to ANYTHING that GOD does...including the act of saving someone who has exercised genuine saving FAITH!

OSAS doctrine denies the faith

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